Do I have a Lemon?

[Scheherazade]

Nice. What kind of upholstery are you going to put in? Or will it look like the driver seat we see in the picture?

[dcrog]

You're a little further along than I am.  But I am a little further along than the pic.

[Chris]

I decided to get a Carfax on my car - from the looks of it, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the odometer was rolled back. The only "unusual" thing that I noted was that the car seems to nearly disappear between 2003 and late 2005, though the milage shot up to nearly double what it was when it was last reported. Anyone have any ideas about why this is?

The car still fits the description of a car that has more like 110,000 miles on it. The spark plugs are going bad (Second set, maybe?) both lower ball joints need to be replaced, stabilizer links need to be replaced, and the rust on the underside of the car makes it look like it has been through hell and back.

I have searched through the Better Business database, and have found there to be 3 complaints within the last 36 months about the dealer: 2 of them 2 years ago, and one within the last year. I guess I could make 4.

At this point I am stuck. If there is no evidance that the odometer was rolled back on Carfax (Though the left most digit, which in this case is a zero, isn't aligned with the rest of the digits) I don't have much ground to stand on in order to get this fixed with no charge, or obtain a new vehicle. Does anyone have  any suggestions at what to do at this point of the ball game? It's really starting to get annoying having to go to the dealership on every one of my days off to get something stupid fixed.

[Evonus]

Sue, the dealer. If you have the receipts for everything that's gone wrong I think it'll be obvious that they sold you a piece of junk. Also take pictures of the odometer, take pictures of the rust, and bring a list of what your mechanic still thinks is wrong with it.

[Vespertine]

Sue, the dealer. If you have the receipts for everything that's gone wrong I think it'll be obvious that they sold you a piece of junk. Also take pictures of the odometer, take pictures of the rust, and bring a list of what your mechanic still thinks is wrong with it.

Unfortunately, suing the dealer isn't going to work.  Used cars are almost always sold "as is", regardless of whether it comes from a dealer or private seller.  The only things that will be covered by a dealer are things covered under any remaining warranty, or an extended warranty that you purchase.  Other than that, the only way to get any money out of the dealer (in a lawsuit) would be if the dealer knowingly rolled the odometer back or misrepresented the vehicle in some other way.  My $.02, sell the vehicle.  As far as leasing vs. buying, I'm a big fan of leasing.  You get to drive a new car every few years for the same (or less) payment.  For me, the absolute best thing about leasing is that my vehicle is always covered by the 3 year/36,000 warranty (or longer, depending on the manufacturer).  I will never pay for anything that goes wrong on one of my vehicles.

[Chris]

If they, or someone before them, rolled the odometer back and they sold it to me in that condition, I am pretty sure I have a new car, hands down simply because it is a serious crime. I am no expert on the whole odometer scene, so I think I may have the guys that I work next to take a look at it on Monday and tell me what they think about the car. Such things I'm thinking of asking are:

1. Does it appear as though the odometer has been rolled back?
2. From looking at the underside of the car, and under the hood, does it look like a car that typically has roughly 60,000 miles on it?
3. How/why could both lower ball joints go bad with so few miles?

Something tells me that before I do this I better notify my dealer that I'm taking it to another mechanic to have their shit double checked.

Bottom line: I kind of just want to get rid of this car. Pronto.

[Demosthenes]

Unfortunately, suing the dealer isn't going to work.  Used cars are almost always sold "as is", regardless of whether it comes from a dealer or private seller.  The only things that will be covered by a dealer are things covered under any remaining warranty, or an extended warranty that you purchase.  Other than that, the only way to get any money out of the dealer (in a lawsuit) would be if the dealer knowingly rolled the odometer back or misrepresented the vehicle in some other way.  My $.02, sell the vehicle.  As far as leasing vs. buying, I'm a big fan of leasing.  You get to drive a new car every few years for the same (or less) payment.  For me, the absolute best thing about leasing is that my vehicle is always covered by the 3 year/36,000 warranty (or longer, depending on the manufacturer).  I will never pay for anything that goes wrong on one of my vehicles.

I actually pay the extra couple bucks a month to get the extended coverage from Mazda.  My tires are covered for the length of the lease, even for normal wear-and-tear, as well as dings and scratches.  I'm pretty much not responsible for anything that comes up on this vehicle.

And Chris, I agree... you need to get rid of that pile of shit ASAP.

[Chris]

BUMP

So I've been looking at leasing a Nissan Xterra, or a Saturn VUE. Honestly, I think the Saturn has more features that I will use on a day-to-day basis, plus you get more features for less money. From what I've read so far on Yahoo! Autos, the VUE is pretty much at the top of its class in terms of overall performance and features.

Here's where I stand so far:
I am interested in leasing a 2006 Saturn VUE because it seems best suited for me. (I put the year in there because I can probably get a better deal on them now since they have the '07s in)
I still owe roughly 6500 on my current car (The estimated value of my car is between 6,500 and 8,300 or so)
I want to try and stay in the 250 a month range for the new car
I'd be willing to put down a decent-sized down payment to keep my monthly payments lower

Has anyone been in this situation, or something similar? If so, did you get stuck paying a huge difference at the end of your lease because of "unforseen" costs, or something along those lines? Will they claim to "take over" my payments on my current car, but hit me with them later on with added charges?

I'm asking these questions because I've never leased before, and I've never traded in a car to a dealship before. I'm trying not to get burned like I just did when I bought my last Explorer.

[TheJudge]

I don't know how things work in your state but over here, we pay 14% tax at the moment. So buying a 20K vehicule means paying $2800 more to the governement. If you have another vehicule, you can find a buyer and make the trade trough the dealer. So, if I have a car worht 10K and I owe 10K on it, by selling it for 10K to an individual using the dealer, I save taxes on my new vehicle. Essentially, what happens is I trade my vehcile to the dealer for the price my buyer is giving me. Then, the dealer sells the car to my buyer. Because it looks like I'm trading in my car, I pay taxes on the difference of the purchase price of the new car (20K) and the trade in value (10K). So I pay taxes on 20K-10K so I end up saving $1400 doing it that way. You probably don't have such a tax rate in your state, but even if you're paying like 4% and you can do this kind of trade, then it's more money in your pocket. It works the same way wheter you lease or trade. The taxes will be adjusted.

Now in terms of getting screwed latter on with unexpected suprises, ask the dealer to provide you with the return checklist or guide. Normally, they will allow x number of scratches up to a certain lenght, they will require the the groove son your tires be a minimum height, like 3 milimetres, etc. It's all explained in the guide, and it's part of the contract. Anything else that false out of what they aceept, you'll have to get fixed before returnign the car, or if you prefer you can just buy the car based on the residual value identified in the lease agreement. If you do, then they don't care what shape the car is in, or the milage it has. Remember that if for example your tires are too used up when you try to return the car, it doesn't mean you have to go out and buy 4 new tires. You can still get yourself used tires at $20 each or what ever. As long as they will satisfy the minimum requirements, they will do.

Where you would usually have problems is not when you return the car, it's when you want to opt out of the lease agreement and break the contract. Again, you can review the lease agreement as such situations are explained.

[Chris]

Here's what the vice president of the dealership had to say on the matter:

"What did you expect? You get what you pay for."

I think this is where I file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

BTW, thanks for all the input guys. It's helped a lot.

[dcrog]

Personally, I think I would look into calling Ford motor company.  Something sounds fishy with that ride.  Or put a large sign on it stating that I bought this lemon from [insert name of dealership] and make sure I went by there every day or so.  Or maybe park it across the street from their front door.

But I would definately get in touch with Ford and skip the dealership.

[Crystalmonkey]

Here's what the vice president of the dealership had to say on the matter:

"What did you expect? You get what you pay for."

I think this is where I file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

BTW, thanks for all the input guys. It's helped a lot.

If you had a recording of that...

[pbsaurus]

Yep, reminds me of that episode where Greg learns about caveat emptor.

[Chris]

Update:

I think the third cylinder has a bad plug - AGAIN. This is the third time. I think it's time to lay down the law on the place that sold me the car. It'll be interesting to see how they take care of this tomorrow when I bring it in. It could be interesting.

[pbsaurus]

If the plug keeps fouling, there's something wrong with the cylinder.  Have you had a compression test done?

[Chris]

The only test that they have done in the power balance test. Both times it has pointed to the spark plug on the third cylinder.

The first time I had them look at it, it was the third cylinder acting up. They replaced it, the problem went away.
The second time I had them look at it, it was the  cylinder again. They said that it was not a spark plug they had put in since it was a different brand. Though, it was the same one they replaced previously.
This time, I have a funny feeling it's going to be the same spark plug.

I think I'm going to let them do their own testing and see what they come up with. To me, this is NOT normal operation, and I know for a fact it has been present since I bought the car from them. Any ideas how I can make them eat the money on this one? I'm sure they're going to throw a hissy fit and tell me it's not covered on my extended coverage plan that I pay for.

[pbsaurus]

Have an independent mechanic run a compression test.  My bet would be the rings are bad or you have a cracked cylinder.  Having a bad sparkplug in the same cylinder many times with the sparkplug being the problem is pretty suspicious to me.

[dcrog]

pb is correct.  On a modern vehicle a fouled plug is not unheard of but is not a common problem.  It could possibly be the plug wire or distributor cap, if it has a distributor cap.  Those two things could keep the same cylinder having problems.  But the likely suspect would be a cracked ring or cylinder.  A compression test will tell if that is the problem.  Oh and fuel injectors can do some strange things too.

Did they give you the fouled plugs when they removed them previously?  Knowing what they looked like and smelled like can tell you quite a bit.

I don't have time right now to go back and reread this thread.  Is it using any oil?

[Chris]

On one of the reports I got back it stated that the porcelain was cracked. Whether or not that keeps happening, I'm not sure. The car doesn't seem to be using any more oil than it should. I change it every 3,000 miles or so, and have never had any problem with having to mysteriously add oil half way in between changes.

I just called the service manager a few minutes ago, and explained that they had fixed it a while ago, and it seems to be acting up again. Earliest they said was next week. I told the guy it was useless to me because I'm going on a trip then (which is true) and he replies, "Yeah... sorry about that".

Assholes. 

[Chris]

So after calling my dealer after the service manager told me I'd have to wait until the following week, I finally got a spot for the next day (Thursday). This was fine by me. As long as it isn't next week since I have a trip coming up.

Thursday rolls around and I drop my car off for them to look at it. Indeed, they confirmed that the SAME SPARK PLUG was acting up again. This time, instead of just changing the spark plug itself, they went ahead and changed the wire leading to the spark plug, thinking it might have been arching. They also went around my car and tried to find other stuff wrong with it. Of course, being the piece of shit that it is, they did find something else wrong with it. The gasket on the thermostat needed to be changed. This was covered by my extended warenty.

I'm guessing I can look forward to seeing them again in about three months when the same spark plug craps out again.

[Demosthenes]

You should demonstrate your displeasure with that certainty and make an appointment with them three months out to fix the same thing.

Seriously.

[Chris]

You know Demo, I wish I took your advice. Here we are almost EXACTLY three months later, and I'm having the same problem again.

I started the car the other morning and noticed the dreaded sputtering sensation that the cars gives off when the spark plug is bad. So I called asking for the same service manager that I got the last few times, but he was off. Go figure.

Instead I got another guy saying that it could be the coil package that needs replacing, and not just the plug itself, along with the wire. The car has 70,000 miles on it now.

Can any of you more car-savvy people tell me if this is something that's plausible?

I am to the point where if they don't fix it right this time, I am going to contact the Better Business Bureau and file a formal complaint against them. There's NO NEED for me to have to take the car back four times in order to have this fixed.

[pbsaurus]

If the spark plug keeps going bad, there's something wrong with the cylinder.  They just want to give you a temporary fix and hope you go away long enough so they don't have to deal with you.

[Demosthenes]

You know Demo, I wish I took your advice.

Boy, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard that.

[ivan]

I can't BELIEVE how well this song fits this thread:

-------------------------

The Lemon Song

I should have quit you, long time ago.
I should have quit you, long time ago.
I wouldn't be here, my children, down on this killin' floor.

I should have listened, baby, to my second mind
I should have listened, baby, to my second mind
Everytime I go away and leave you, darling, you send me the blues way down the line.

Said, people worry I can't keep you satisfied.
Said, people worry I can't keep you satisfied.
Let me tell you baby, you ain't nothin but a two-bit, no-good jive.

Went to sleep last night, worked as hard as I can,
Bring home my money, you take my money, give it to another man.
I should have quit you, baby, such a long time ago.
I wouldn't be here with all my troubles, down on this killing floor.

Squeeze me baby, till the juice runs down my leg.
Squeeze me baby, till the juice runs down my leg.
The way you squeeze my lemon, I'm gonna fall right out of bed.

I'm gonna leave my children down on this killing floor.

----------------

Well, it sorta fits. It mentions lemons, anyway.