Topic: I'm a hard core (social) conservative! (Read 19173 times)

Trex005 · « **on:** July 11, 2005, 07:13:07 PM »

As to not hijack a thread that this started in ( http://www.geekforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=2781&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40 ), It has now moved here!

Okay, My Opinion is that America was founded with the most basic principle that "I am free to swing my fists all I want until it reaches the tip of your nose" This in short means, I have freedom until I'm encroaching on someone else's...
whereas this I don't think is perfect, I think that it is the closest that we can get on this earth until Jesus comes back (no, that was not intended as flamebait, please lets semi stay on topic)

Unfortunately, the grand old USA has gone FAR from that!

For example, I think that illegal Drug use is wrong.. it is limitlessly self destructive, though, where it is outwardly destructive is very different depending on what drug, and can be controlled in many cases. For example, one smoking weed in their own (detached) home, bought from a legal channel with no minors or unwilling participants present and does not leave their home until the effects have worn off. Does not really encroach on anyone else's freedom directly. (now of course this could be debated if they are a pot head who sits around all day using up my tax dollars for welfare, or get soo extreme that they end up in an institution paid for by other tax dollars) But this, in my opinion is just about as destructive as alcohol and I don't think that it is in accordance with our countries founding to outlaw this. Tripping on Acid on the other hand can cause you to become unstable for life but does that mean it should be illegal? no, but there should be things put in place to make sure that it is safe.. such as, before you ever use acid, you must forfeit your drivers licence for the rest of your life, become sterilized so you can not harm children that you could later have, and purchase insurance to pay for any institutionalization you may need and other costs you would otherwise have on society. If someone is willing to do all this, then that means that they are willing to not encroach on the rest of our freedoms, and I think fine... let them... that is their right! (or at least should be)

BUT when it comes to an abortion? DON'T MAKE ME SICK... it IS murdering a child there is no way that that is not encroaching on someone else's freedom! I have especially strong feelings about this because I was an aborted baby of sorts... My mother was at her appointment to have me aborted, but was stopped by a protester... I was almost murdered! I love my mother and she loves me equally as much now, and I'm so glad that that person who stopped her had the guts to stand up for what is right... Also, someone being "forced" (and by this I mean what they feel is strongly pressured) Is the usual, and about nine out of ten women surveyed say that if they knew about another reasonable option (like crises pregnancy centers) they would have taken it!

euthanasia on the other hand, I must say, I'm torn about.... I think that a person should have the right to take their own life when facing severe (physical) pain for the rest of their life, but should have to set at least minimal arrangements for postmortem self. As for suicide, I may make an exception to the rule of freedoms, simply because most people who want to just kill them selves because they cease to want to exist (depression, lost loved ones etc) are not in their right mind and should get strong counsel and help before making their final decision (maybe a year waiting period?) I also feel strongly about this one because I was suicidal as a teenager due to severe depression. Had it not been for my fear of going to Hell, I would not have hesitated to just end the hopelessness (I'm not in any way saying that someone committing suicide goes to Hell, If someone dies of cancer, I know that being sick in the body would not cause someone to go to Hell, why would being sick in the head to so) Terri Schiavo I again do not know... if her wish was truly not to live as she was, then I think it was wrong to keep her alive as long as they did. Else, wrong to kill her... we'll never know and I think that the only human that was qualified to decide would have been her husband assuming his sanity...

An extreme left winger would be a totalitarian (or less extreme a communist), an extreme right winger would be an anarchist, both are wrong.. I am neither I'm kind of my own little party that is pro what the founding fathers were for... but this is all based on how America was founded.... I think when Jesus is ruling, he will have Divine knowledge and the ability to rightly judge, and all wrong will be illegal.. and that is the way it should really be, but is not possibly without a perfect Deity in charge, so I think we should settle for the original American way!

(wow, that was soo anti climatic) BTW, I did not proof read this, so I hope it makes sense (but I did run a Spell checker! (is else's not the possessive of else?) )

Vespertine · « **Reply #1 on:** July 11, 2005, 07:53:34 PM »

Oh yes, you will definitely help with the debate thing. Since your post covered WAY too much ground to tackle all at once (religion, abortion, the right to die, drug use, etc.), we'll just wait until specific topics come up. The one thing that I do want to point out is you definition of political terms (near the end of your post).

You should be aware that totalitarian and communist systems are completely different. While you're right that a far-left system would be communist in nature, it would never be totalitarian. In theory, a communist system actually has no need for government because the people govern themselves. Also according to theory, a communist system could never be forced on a people; it would arise naturally as a people learn to live for the good of the "community". China, the USSR, these were/are not communist systems. They were oligarchies (or authoritarian governments, if you prefer). As far as I know, and I could very well be wrong, we've never seen a truly communist system. So, by all means, call the far-left socialists or communists, but you cannot call them supporters of totalitarianism.

Trex005 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 11, 2005, 10:17:23 PM »

you are correct, I misused the term totalitarian, a totalitarian government would be a single person or small group that controls just about every aspect of life... I used it in a more broad sense of the gov't controlling every aspect. As for communism, with perfect people, that would actually I think be the perfect government... but fact is, we live in a fallen world and what is labeled communist is actually a lot closer to my broader use of the term totalitarian (which yes we have established is misuse) To make a socialist government work in this fallen world, you HAVE to control every aspect... I think that is the direction that the US is heading, but it is soo subtle that no one even knows it is happening! on the other hand, the far right wingers (we'll endearingly call them the anarchists) would abolish all high level organization and we'd never be able to "judge" who's noses we were allowed to hit while we were swinging and who's noses we need to protect because they are too small a voice to protect their own (that was intended to mean minorities)
As for us never have seen a true communism, in the very early Christian days, that was as close as I think we can get, but after a few centuries, that turned into major corruption as could only be expected...

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #3 on:** July 11, 2005, 10:47:56 PM »

Two questions before I proceed:

1) Have you ever done any recreational drugs?

and

2) Why would your mother tell you that she was attempting to abort you?

Chris · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2005, 12:22:24 AM »

What if you're pregnant, but you have cancer and you wish to kill yourself?

Quatra · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:00:15 AM »

I just love people like you who want to put regulations on everything we do. What if I want to fart? Do I have to verify the age of any persons within a ten foot radius so as not to expose minors to underage sniffing? Give a rating on my fart every couple minutes to remind people of the contents and smelly factor of the fart? Will the FCC sue me if said fart is deemed inapropriate?

The basic foundation of our country are our BASIC RIGHTS! "I am free to swing my fists all I want until it reaches the tip of your nose"

I don't remember hearing about our right to be offended.

You want to talk about a waste of tax dollars in america? Well you point to wellfare. I point to the war on drugs. The biggest failure that our country has continualy poured money into. The whole drug epidemic is like a spider web in the sense that once we started fighting it we got tangled up in it and the longer we fight the worse it will be, but now the spider has shown up and the only thing we can do is struggle.

please, I'll be happy to argue any of these points. people like this just get me in a pissy mood. lucky this is just a forum cause I'd likely smack him up the head had he sead this within striking distance.

Quatra · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:01:39 AM »

just stick to talking about what's right and wrong. you look less stupid that way.

Vespertine · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:32:53 AM »

Quatra, please remember that once a debate devolves into name calling, it's no longer a debate. You can be pissed all you want, but please refrain from comments that indicate how much you'd like to "smack him up the head" because of his viewpoints.

Vespertine · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:38:53 AM »

Quote from: Trex005

you are correct, I misused the term totalitarian, a totalitarian government would be a single person or small group that controls just about every aspect of life... I used it in a more broad sense of the gov't controlling every aspect. As for communism, with perfect people, that would actually I think be the perfect government... but fact is, we live in a fallen world and what is labeled communist is actually a lot closer to my broader use of the term totalitarian (which yes we have established is misuse) To make a socialist government work in this fallen world, you HAVE to control every aspect... I think that is the direction that the US is heading, but it is soo subtle that no one even knows it is happening! on the other hand, the far right wingers (we'll endearingly call them the anarchists) would abolish all high level organization and we'd never be able to "judge" who's noses we were allowed to hit while we were swinging and who's noses we need to protect because they are too small a voice to protect their own (that was intended to mean minorities)
As for us never have seen a true communism, in the very early Christian days, that was as close as I think we can get, but after a few centuries, that turned into major corruption as could only be expected...

Well, I also have issues with you referring to people on the far-right as anarchists. I don't know of anyone (except anarchists of course) who would limit governmental involvement so much as to eliminate government entirely. You'd do well to not overuse terms like anarchist and communist as they denote a very small percent of the population.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:49:38 AM »

I want to take this post point by point, hope you guys (and gals) don't mind.

Quote from: Quatra

I just love people like you who want to put regulations on everything we do. What if I want to fart? Do I have to verify the age of any persons within a ten foot radius so as not to expose minors to underage sniffing? Give a rating on my fart every couple minutes to remind people of the contents and smelly factor of the fart? Will the FCC sue me if said fart is deemed inapropriate?

Alright, by now many of you may have realized I am a moderate, or I try to be anyway, so I like to follow the "everything is good in moderation" bit.

While I don't think controling EVERYTHING is a good thing, like our fellow "totalitarian", you can't say that NO regulation is a good thing. Well, you could, but you'd be wrong.

If we didn't regulate air pollution, or land pollution, or try to fight against "the tragedy of the commons", you know that companies wouldn't do much about it until it's too late. Heck, they refuse to do much now, and we know that global warming and the oil crisis are coming up (20-40 years for the oil crisis).

I wouldn't want big brother watching over my shoulder, but I would like to be able to BREATH every once in a while without worry about all the air pollution. I realize cars are a problem too, but people don't care enough to stop using them. (Or demand alternatives.)

Quote from: Quatra

The basic foundation of our country are our BASIC RIGHTS! "I am free to swing my fists all I want until it reaches the tip of your nose" I don't remember hearing about our right to be offended.

Stretching it a bit, let's call it our right to happiness. Am I happy if I am being called things like "gay, fat, homo, queer, moron, a**hole..."?

You can say what you want, when it applies to the government, but you come up into my face and start swearing at me and you're violating my rights.

Quote from: Quatra

You want to talk about a waste of tax dollars in america? Well you point to wellfare. I point to the war on drugs. The biggest failure that our country has continualy poured money into. The whole drug epidemic is like a spider web in the sense that once we started fighting it we got tangled up in it and the longer we fight the worse it will be, but now the spider has shown up and the only thing we can do is struggle.

Right. We also have American troops funding terrorists in Columbia. We know the drug war is messed up, but the question is what to do about it.

We could try legalizing it, which would cause prices to fall, but for many drug dealers, they don't make much money. It takes a lot of money to bribe cops, buy "protection", etc... which is why many still live with their mothers. (I've heard Freakanomics discusses this, so I may go out and buy the book.)

Quote from: Trex005

As for us never have seen a true communism, in the very early Christian days, that was as close as I think we can get, but after a few centuries, that turned into major corruption as could only be expected...

I doubt it "turned into" corruption, but was likely messed up from the start.

How sane is it to have one person in charge of everything, when we know that "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely..."?

Sure they didn't realize it at first, but it wasn't a slow progression. There were good rulers, there were bad rulers. No matter what, there was still a ruler.

Quote from: Quatra

just stick to talking about what's right and wrong. you look less stupid that way.

What do you mean by "just stick to talking about what's right and wrong."?

I don't understand what you are trying to say, but I'll throw a few possibilities out there.

-Do you mean talking about morality?
(Gay marriage, abortion, etc...)

-Do you mean about what is the correct answer/solution?
(Mathematics, Philosophy, etc...)

Trex005 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2005, 06:41:28 AM »

Quote from: Lacerda

1) Have you ever done any recreational drugs?

Yes, but not proud of it

Quote from: Lacerda

2) Why would your mother tell you that she was attempting to abort you?

I was an illegitimate Child... a Mistake, I know that I have no problem with it, in fact it is a sign of what my parents overcame for me. Because of the results, I can now wear it as a badge of honor.

Quote from: Chris

What if you're pregnant, but you have cancer and you wish to kill yourself?

What if you need a heart or you'll die? Can you just go kill someone because you know they are an organ donor and would be compatible?

Quote from: Quatra

I just love people like you who want to put regulations on everything we do. What if I want to fart? Do I have to verify the age of any persons within a ten foot radius so as not to expose minors to underage sniffing? Give a rating on my fart every couple minutes to remind people of the contents and smelly factor of the fart? Will the FCC sue me if said fart is deemed inappropriate?

The basic foundation of our country are our BASIC RIGHTS! "I am free to swing my fists all I want until it reaches the tip of your nose" I don't remember hearing about our right to be offended.

You want to talk about a waste of tax dollars in America? Well you point to welfare. I point to the war on drugs. The biggest failure that our country has continually poured money into. The whole drug epidemic is like a spider web in the sense that once we started fighting it we got tangled up in it and the longer we fight the worse it will be, but now the spider has shown up and the only thing we can do is struggle.

please, I'll be happy to argue any of these points. people like this just get me in a pissy mood. lucky this is just a forum cause I'd likely smack him up the head had he sead this within striking distance.

You failed to point out anything that disagrees with me

I do agree with you about the war on drugs... I think that people should just be prevented from harming other people by using them... if they were not illegal, there would not be the crime surrounding them that there is now... we could afford the "regulations" with all the money saved!

Quote from: Vaspertime

Quatra, please remember that once a debate devolves into name calling, it's no longer a debate. You can be pissed all you want, but please refrain from comments that indicate how much you'd like to "smack him up the head" because of his viewpoints.

isn't that just his "viewpoint"? I'm not offended all is in good humor for me

Quote from: Vespertine (again)

Well, I also have issues with you referring to people on the far-right as anarchists. I don't know of anyone (except anarchists of course) who would limit governmental involvement so much as to eliminate government entirely. You'd do well to not overuse terms like anarchist and communist as they denote a very small percent of the population.

right... that is only a label for the far far far... and I actually don't personally know anyone that is as far as either extreme... most of us are MUCH closer to the middle.. We can be walking across a bridge over a pit of lava and we all know that it is stupid to balance on either left or right edges of the bridge, it is only common sense to walk down the middle... but this is a big bridge, and there is a TON of room in the middle to walk

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2005, 07:26:56 AM »

Quote from: Trex005

Quote from: Lacerda
1) Have you ever done any recreational drugs?

Yes, but not proud of it

So then where are you getting your kooky ideas that acid will break you for the rest of your life? Have you done anything to research the long term effects of lysergic acid diethylamide?

Quote from: Trex005

Quote from: Lacerda
2) Why would your mother tell you that she was attempting to abort you?

I was an illegitimate Child... a Mistake, I know that I have no problem with it, in fact it is a sign of what my parents overcame for me. Because of the results, I can now wear it as a badge of honor.

Yes, but I still don't get how this occurred. "Wow mom these are great pancakes!" "Thanks dear I tried to abort you by the way." "What?" "Oh, nothing--eat your breakfast."

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2005, 07:29:11 AM »

Quote from: Lacerda

Yes, but I still don't get how this occurred. "Wow mom these are great pancakes!" "Thanks dear I tried to abort you by the way." "What?" "Oh, nothing--eat your breakfast."

"Hey mom, I've decided to just ditch the whole project. I don't even want it anyway."

"You're lucky I decided to 'stick with' my 'project', because I almost aborted your quitting a**!"

Demosthenes · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2005, 10:21:52 AM »

Thanks for posting, Trex005. It's about time we had some dissent around here for a change.

Like Vespertine, I am going to hold back until topical issues present themselves here one by one rather than start attacking your ideology as you have presented it here.

But I am going to make one teeeny little observation, and don't be offended by it.

Paragraphs are your FRIENDS.

Thank you.

Trex005 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2005, 10:36:45 AM »

Quote from: Demosthenes

Paragraphs are your FRIENDS.

Yeah, I have that problem!!!.... eh, no one but God is perfect!

I'm sure by now that you guys think I'm obsessed with God... and well, you are correct O'neill!

Demosthenes · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2005, 10:55:11 AM »

Well, I'm not going to hold that against you.

Er... not yet, anyway.

BizB · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2005, 12:19:39 PM »

Quote from: Trex005

Quote from: Demosthenes

Paragraphs are your FRIENDS.

Yeah, I have that problem!!!.... eh, no one but God is perfect!

I'm sure by now that you guys think I'm obsessed with God... and well, you are correct O'neill!

God is far from perfect.

Vespertine · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2005, 12:26:45 PM »

Quote from: BizB

Quote from: Trex005
Quote from: Demosthenes

Paragraphs are your FRIENDS.

Yeah, I have that problem!!!.... eh, no one but God is perfect!

I'm sure by now that you guys think I'm obsessed with God... and well, you are correct O'neill!
God is far from perfect.

[gasping]
BizB, are you trolling?

[/gasping]

Trex005 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2005, 01:03:38 PM »

Assuming supremacy (Which I know is not the opinion of all, but assuming...), wouldn't perfection be defined by whatever God is?

reimero · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2005, 01:31:31 PM »

Quote from: Trex005

Assuming supremacy (Which I know is not the opinion of all, but assuming...), wouldn't perfection be defined by whatever God is?

Not speaking for myself here, but that question presumes belief in a god, which is not necessarily a given.

Personally, I'm a theist, Christian, even. But that's just me, and that's the extent of it.

Trex005 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2005, 01:47:01 PM »

Quote from: reimero

that question presumes belief in a god, which is not necessarily a given.

Yeah, I was trying to cover those different options with the

Quote from: Trex005

(Which I know is not the opinion of all, but assuming...)

but I certantly see how that was not clearly emphasized by me... 90% of communication is in what's heard... not what's said

reimero · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:56:21 PM »

My point is more this: you said, "assuming supremacy," which is a large enough assumption that invalidates a great portion of the discussion. To an atheist, the statement "assuming supremacy" is equivalent to, "assuming the sky is green" or "assuming the sun rises in the west"

Around these parts, you have to be careful how you argue your points, because that which is often a given in normal casual conversation is not a given here. For a meaningful conversation here, you have to assume that the reader does not believe in God or recognize the validity of any religious texts. It is from this starting point that pro-theistic arguments have to come.

Trust me, I've been there.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2005, 03:58:37 PM »

*sharpens his scythe*

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2005, 05:07:12 PM »

*starts burning bibles and singing satanic hymms*

BizB · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2005, 05:33:27 PM »

Quote

Okay, My Opinion is that America was founded with the most basic principle that "I am free to swing my fists all I want until it reaches the tip of your nose" This in short means, I have freedom until I'm encroaching on someone else's...
whereas this I don't think is perfect, I think that it is the closest that we can get on this earth until Jesus comes back (no, that was not intended as flamebait, please lets semi stay on topic)

Opinions can't be wrong; we we've nothing to argue here.

Quote

Unfortunately, the grand old USA has gone FAR from that!

For example, I think that illegal Drug use is wrong.. *snip out a bunch of opinion*

Who gave the government the power to determine which recreational drugs are legal and wich ones are not?

Quote

BUT when it comes to an abortion? DON'T MAKE ME SICK... it IS murdering a child there is no way that that is not encroaching on someone else's freedom! *snip out a bunch of opinion*

Where in the constitution does it give the federal government the right to determine the point at which life begins?

Quote

euthanasia on the other hand, I must say, I'm torn about.... I think that a person should have the right to take their own life when facing severe (physical) pain for the rest of their life, but should have to set at least minimal arrangements for postmortem self.

Why? If not myself, then to whom does my life belong? If I am to have the right to own property, what more basic property than my own life?

Quote

As for suicide, I may make an exception to the rule of freedoms,
*snip a bunch of opinion and conjecture*

Why?

Quote

An extreme left winger would be a totalitarian (or less extreme a communist), an extreme right winger would be an anarchist, both are wrong.. I am neither I'm kind of my own little party that is pro what the founding fathers were for...*snip a bunch of opinion and conjecture*

So, you're a constitutionalist?
http://home.earthlink.net/~jmarkels/cp.html

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Author Topic: I'm a hard core (social) conservative! (Read 19173 times)