The Geek Forum
Main Forums => Political Opinions => Topic started by: tweek on May 11, 2009, 11:21:48 PM
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Sorry for the bland essay title. Linkidoo (http://www.1010wins.com/Ex-Student-Says-NJ-Medical-School-Discriminated/4374417)
This article has thus far produced a 576 post shit storm on Fark, and now I bring it to you.
The valedictorian of my high school was one of the whitest girls I ever met. She had pale skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes. I used to call her "Marion the Aryan"... I know, I shouldn't have found that so amusing. Anyway, Marion was from Zimbabwe, her parents were there as missionaries when she was born. Technically, she was an "African American."
I suppose the debate comes down to what exactly is that term "African American" is meant to imply. It seems that most feel it is simply a nice way of saying "black," not as a way of describing an American with origins in Africa. I don't doubt this guy was being an attention whore, but did he cross some sort of magical PC line?
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We have a lot of people of Surinam in the netherlands, they are always called african-americans while nor roots or origin has anything to do with being african.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket_term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket_term)
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Black people in the US have a somewhat different mindset than than elsewhere in the world, though, jeee. A different history, and different reasons for self-identifying as "black" or "African-American". Much of this difference has to do directly with the social structure here; a large reason is an attempt to SELF - identify; and not simply accept the white race's term(s) for them with no say - so in the matter. First the term (given by whites) was Negro. Then the term "black" was used by blacks proudly; until whites took that term over and used it until it began to be derogatory much the same way as Negro (and I do NOT mean the word "nigger") did. Thus the term African-American came into being.
So now you have a white person (of African heritage) claiming a term coined specifically by blacks to get away from the identity given them by whites.
"White people call us 'black'; so WE DECIDE to be called African-American."
I can understand the discomfort in a white person hi-jacking that from them, too. However, it was inevitable; with the name decided upon: African-American. Bad choice if you were only wanting to denominate black Africans in America.
I disagree with the student's treatment, however, if his use of the term African-American is the only basis for it. If he's from Africa and he's now an American; he's African-American whether he's black, white, red, yellow, brown, or blue. Time to pick another term to use to describe ONLY blacks.
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Yeah , I sort of got that already. Still the term african-american has always puzzled me.
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In the UK people just use the general terms black and white. 'Asian' is another safe word. I don't quite follow what happens in America, racism is quite a touche subject in a states, or so its seems from this distance. Would you say racism is as bad as some American rappers would have you believe?
I don't see a lot of racism in the UK although I am sure people will assert that it is here, I associate racism with stupidity and if I'm honest thats not the kind of company I keep.
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As someone who has to do institutional reporting regarding the race/ethnicity of students and applicants I am getting a kick out of this.
What people always seem to forget is that those values are self-reported, or not. And they can change. The applicant doesn't want to tell you since they don't want to bias the admissions committee, one way or the other. Once they are admitted they decide it's okay to tell you. This happens for all races not just white (although mostly white).
I have often gotten into conversations with the dean of diversity regarding exactly this issue. She wants to invite all "students of color" and URM (under represented minorites - not white american or asian-american basically) to a dinner, I generate a list of students. She says people are missing and gives me names, the students are international. So they aren't xxxx-american anything, if I give her a list of all students who have a nationality of an African country not all of them will be "of color", and there will also be some from other countries. As a white guy it's hard to understand why something that sounds simple ends up so twisty and confusing.
To add to all of this the Federal government is changing the question that is being asked for Race/Ethnicity starting with the new census and all students and applicants to higher education next year. So expect to see big shifts in that.
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But still it is only in the US that people get called African-Americans. That causes problem nr 1 already adressed in post 1 and problem nr 2 people of colour who are not American will be called Americans. So then you need also African-Europeans and African-Asians. Or what about the folks in South America? African-South-Americans? Although that last one would solve the problem with the folks from Surinam. Anyway, it was not chosen wisely.
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In the UK people just use the general terms black and white. 'Asian' is another safe word. I don't quite follow what happens in America, racism is quite a touche subject in a states, or so its seems from this distance. Would you say racism is as bad as some American rappers would have you believe?
It's really a matter of perspective and class. In my opinion the predominant racism I see is shifting from the classic "whites-hate-blacks" and moving more towards a distinguished, "blacks-hate-whites". That's just merely what I see happening from the social class and geographical area that I live in. Especially, since no matter what whites do to reconcile any past greives their very actions are perceived as racist towards blacks.
Also there's a big swing of hatred flying towards the Hispanic communty at the moment.
It doesn't really matter where you go somebody is going to hate somebody for some reason, whether it be it color of skin, religion, lifestyle choice, or the way they walk.
Back on topic though, African-American denotes someones who is now American who was from Africa, regardless of skin color. That's just how the term reads.
Anyway, it was not chosen wisely.
Concur.
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But still it is only in the US that people get called African-Americans. That causes problem nr 1 already adressed in post 1 and problem nr 2 people of colour who are not American will be called Americans. So then you need also African-Europeans and African-Asians. Or what about the folks in South America? African-South-Americans? Although that last one would solve the problem with the folks from Surinam. Anyway, it was not chosen wisely.
Well yes, by definition you have to be an american citizen to be anything-american.
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In my opinion the predominant racism I see is shifting from the classic "whites-hate-blacks" and moving more towards a distinguished, "blacks-hate-whites". That's just merely what I see happening from the social class and geographical area that I live in. Especially, since no matter what whites do to reconcile any past greives their very actions are perceived as racist towards blacks.
Look out now! You're gonna get yourself lumped in with me making statements like that.
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Well yes, by definition you have to be an american citizen to be anything-american.
Latin American?
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Apu: Today, I am no longer an Indian living in America. I am an Indian-American.
Lisa: You know, in a way, all Americans are immigrants. Except, of course Native Americans.
Homer: Yeah, Native Americans like us.
Lisa: No, I mean American Indians.
Apu: Like me.
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Latin American?
Doesn't exist as a federal race/ethnicity.
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Canadians? North-Americans...
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Or... we could just screw the whole rediculous PC "system"(which mostly just changes the definitions of term every other week) and simply call whites "whites" blacks "blacks" indians "indians" and asians "asians". as soon as the terms are accepted by the general public, they magically become offensive, creating an endless cycle. this needs to stop.
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I love hispanics.
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Well, if you love em so much, why don't ya marry . . . ohwait...
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Or... we could just screw the whole rediculous PC "system"(which mostly just changes the definitions of term every other week) and simply call whites "whites" blacks "blacks" indians "indians" and asians "asians". as soon as the terms are accepted by the general public, they magically become offensive, creating an endless cycle. this needs to stop.
How about giving everyone a number assignment? Whites or Caucasians will be 1... for obvious reasons. Blacks or African Americans will be 2. Asian or Orientals will be 3.14159265, because they love math. Native Americans or Indians will be 0 because we've almost completely wiped them out. If we simply switch to numbers we can stop arguing semantics.
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Well, if you love em so much, why don't ya marry . . . ohwait...
Say it isn't so! Is Detta married?
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Canadians? North-Americans...
I thought Canadadadianianseses were Northern North Americans.
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Native Americans or Indians will be 0 because we've almost completely wiped them out.
I resemble that remark and resent being referred to as 0.
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I think those of us who are caucasian should band together to reclaim and advocate use of the term "honkey."
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I resemble that remark and resent being referred to as 0.
you resemble that remark?
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I think those of us who are caucasian should band together to reclaim and advocate use of the term "honkey."
ooo i never heard that before, sounds so much cooler than white!
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you resemble that remark?
I'm Ojibwe and a little bit Chickasaw.
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I love hispanics.
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Say it isn't so! Is Detta married?
You've been gone a while, eh? I got married to Enrique in August.
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Say it isn't so! Is Detta married?
They're not only taking your jobs Tweek.
I am Kidding
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as an aside... don't Indians rather dislike the term "Native Americans"? That term didn't even exist until the 70's. Of course, they would rather be called by their tribal names, but nobody can remember all of those.
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I am nobody.
And we prefer Native American or American Indian before just "Indian", but as long as you're not calling me a "prairie nigger" or a "redskin" I'm generally unoffended. Unless I'm being intentionally contrary because I just don't like you.
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Boyfriend's an Ojibwae, he hates when I call him an Indian, he got the most upset when I called him a savage... I thought it was funny.
I have to agree with your boyfriend. "Savage" is right up there with "prairie nigger". No one's ever called me one though. Maybe it's because I hang out with too many PC crackers.
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I am nobody.
And we prefer Native American or American Indian before just "Indian", but as long as you're not calling me a "prairie nigger" or a "redskin" I'm generally unoffended. Unless I'm being intentionally contrary because I just don't like you.
Who made you the spokesman for Savages? You can somehow tell what all Indians like to be called?
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Shut up Tweek.
What about calling everybody humans?
And then to categorize we take sizes
Like, "There's a lot of c-cup sizes in maryland"
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Who made you the spokesman for Savages? You can somehow tell what all Indians like to be called?
Waitwaitwait. First - right off; you JUST read that it offends her ( and BS's bf) to be called savages; and you turn right around and use that term - Im assuming simply because they mentioned it - in her face. Second; she is American Indian, and would know what terminology would be offensive, but you question her?
Unless you were kidding (and if so; that was a really bad joke); you should probably apologize. I can't believe you actually said that in the first place. You'd call someone "nigger"? "Wetback"? "Beaner"? "chink"? If not, then why is "savage" ok?
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Who made you the spokesman for Savages?
Since I'm not a savage, no one.
You can somehow tell what all Indians like to be called?
I cannot speak for anyone from India. I'm Ojibwe and Chickasaw.
EDIT: I edited this alot because I couldn't tell who was being serious and who wasn't. Also, I have a few bitch points I haven't spent this month but I decided to save them for something special.
I like jeee's idea.
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besides making me watch S. Darko is so much worse that that.
Agreed.
Incidentally, I'm a Choctaw. The only time people can tell is when I fill out application paperwork (diversity engineering scholarship ftw), so I don't really hear any of it.
The only time I was called a 'native American' was by my manager who I'm sure meant to say 'native English speaker'. I have the distinct honor of judging if new recruits can speak English well enough to work here.
Oh. And lol @ Joe's post.
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What about "redskin"? That always seemed like it would be offensive to me if I had been an indigenous person and/or had feelings.
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Waitwaitwait. First - right off; you JUST read that it offends her ( and BS's bf) to be called savages; and you turn right around and use that term - Im assuming simply because they mentioned it - in her face. Second; she is American Indian, and would know what terminology would be offensive, but you question her?
Unless you were kidding (and if so; that was a really bad joke); you should probably apologize. I can't believe you actually said that in the first place. You'd call someone "nigger"? "Wetback"? "Beaner"? "chink"? If not, then why is "savage" ok?
Words are just words unless there is some harmful intent or disrespectful tone behind them. I don't abide by the belief that some words are too taboo to be said. If we can't say those words which some people find offensive, then where do we stop? If you don't want to here what I have to say, you can ban me. That won't solve your problems though when you're in a restaurant, train, or anywhere else you don't have the power to shut people up. That's sort of where this thread started. A kid said something stupid that people didn't like. Rather than passing it off, they harassed him and threw him out of school. Now he's suing them, and they look like assholes who couldn't take a joke.
Nigger.
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lol@ "the power to shut people up". You kids learn quick. If you do something wrong/bad/stupid and get caught or called out on it; it's always the person who called you out on it's fault.
"I don't think calling you a nigger is disrespectful at all, you nigger. It's your fault that the word is offensive; not mine, nigger."
Nice. Not only do you appear to be a bigoted asshole; but a rather not-to-bright one at that.
No one is "shutting you up", etc, etc, Ms Pelosi. I only suggested that you just blatantly insulted another member with a racial slur and should apologize. If you don't; that's fine; it only demonstrates your character.
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lol@ "the power to shut people up". You kids learn quick. If you do something wrong/bad/stupid and get caught or called out on it; it's always the person who called you out on it's fault.
"I don't think calling you a nigger is disrespectful at all, you nigger. It's your fault that the word is offensive; not mine, nigger."
Nice. Not only do you appear to be a bigoted asshole; but a rather not-to-bright one at that.
No one is "shutting you up", etc, etc, Ms Pelosi. I only suggested that you just blatantly insulted another member with a racial slur and should apologize. If you don't; that's fine; it only demonstrates your character.
I never said you were shutting me up. I said that I'm allowed to say whatever I want. On this specific website you have the power to stop me. You haven't; which is great. As for my free-speech bit, I don't blame people for getting angry at certain words. If I run up to an African American and scream, "Fucking NIGGER!" I expect that person to be offended/hit me. I'm saying that tone and intent matter more that a series of letters. Calling my comment a blatant insult is a stretch. Wunderkind said she wasn't sure who was being serious and who wasn't. Your blowing this way out of proportion.
And by the way, I already apologized in private message. It seems that you're the one looking for an apology however. If I've somehow insulted you let me know, and I'll pass one along. Wunderkind seems old enough to fight her own battles though.
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I never said you were shutting me up.
Hmm, ok, I put it in quotation marks; which actually means the same thing as if I had quoted it, but since that apparently isn't clear; here it is:
Words are just words unless there is some harmful intent or disrespectful tone behind them. I don't abide by the belief that some words are too taboo to be said. If we can't say those words which some people find offensive, then where do we stop? If you don't want to here what I have to say, you can ban me. That won't solve your problems though when you're in a restaurant, train, or anywhere else you don't have the power to shut people up[/u]. That's sort of where this thread started. A kid said something stupid that people didn't like. Rather than passing it off, they harassed him and threw him out of school. Now he's suing them, and they look like assholes who couldn't take a joke.
Nigger.
See that there? I made it big and underlined it, too. So. Back to my original statement:
lol@ "the power to shut people up"[/u]. You kids learn quick. If you do something wrong/bad/stupid and get caught or called out on it; it's always the person who called you out on it's fault.
"I don't think calling you a nigger is disrespectful at all, you nigger. It's your fault that the word is offensive; not mine, nigger."
Nice. Not only do you appear to be a bigoted asshole; but a rather not-to-bright one at that.
No one is "shutting you up", etc, etc, Ms Pelosi. I only suggested that you just blatantly insulted another member with a racial slur and should apologize. If you don't; that's fine; it only demonstrates your character.
There - see how I bolded and underlined that part?
So from your very first sentence, it seems you are misreading, misunderstanding, or intentionally misrepresenting what you read and understood.
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Calling my comment a blatant insult is a stretch.
Apparently not:
Wunderkind said she wasn't sure who was being serious and who wasn't.
In reading the posts below, in the order that they appear in the thread, a normal, sane-minded person would indeed call your comment a blatant insult.
Also, if you seriously believe it is NOT an insult; what did you apologize to Wunderkind for?
I am nobody.
And we prefer Native American or American Indian before just "Indian", but as long as you're not calling me a "prairie nigger" or a "redskin" I'm generally unoffended. Unless I'm being intentionally contrary because I just don't like you.
I have to agree with your boyfriend. "Savage" is right up there with "prairie nigger". No one's ever called me one though. Maybe it's because I hang out with too many PC crackers.
Who made you the spokesman for Savages? You can somehow tell what all Indians like to be called?
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Your blowing this way out of proportion.
You're
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And by the way, I already apologized in private message.
None of my business.
One question begs, however; if it wasn't an insult, and couldn't be construed as one ("just a series of letters"), what was the apology for? Surely you didn't come off with that "Im sorry if you were offended, but" bull?
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It seems that you're the one looking for an apology however. If I've somehow insulted you let me know, and I'll pass one along.
And exactly what would I be asking for in an apology? I ask you; as you came up with the idea; you must have some inkling of why I should ask for an apology.
I'm doing my job here as a moderator; and calling you out on your use of a racial slur, pointing out that a member JUST stated that that was indeed an insult, and suggesting you apologize TO HER. How you interpret that to mean I seek apology to me is, again, another example of you either misreading, misunderstanding, or misrepresenting what you read and understood.
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Wunderkind seems old enough to fight her own battles though.
She certainly is. But on this forum, we have moderators so that members don't have to "fight battles" over something such as this. Many people are non-confrontational and will simply not come here anymore. Soon all you'd be left with is people like you, who's comment don't actually mean anything and are simply a "series of letters" whenever challenged.
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You should spend some time on the Fark forums, you'd fit right in. I apologized in case my comment was taken the wrong way by her, not by you. Before you take up Wunderkind's cause, why not ask her if she actually took offense. It seems to me that she wasn't sure how to take it.
EDIT: I edited this alot because I couldn't tell who was being serious and who wasn't. Also, I have a few bitch points I haven't spent this month but I decided to save them for something special.
If you honestly think I was out to deliver a racial slur to offend someone, and it's your (to avoid being attacked by the grammar police) job to step in, then ban me. Let's be done with it. Accept that this isn't as big a deal as you're making it, or just ban me. It's as simple as that, and it's not the end of the world.
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What about "redskin"? That always seemed like it would be offensive to me if I had been an indigenous person and/or had feelings.
News Story (http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/articles/index.cfm?id=23139§ion=News)
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Ok, not a problem. I don't get why you want to be banned so bad, but whatever.
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What about "redskin"? That always seemed like it would be offensive to me if I had been an indigenous person and/or had feelings.
They are from Washington right?
And for the new classification method I also need to know your penis length Joe.
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Jesus fucking Christ, will everyone just calm down?
tweek, you're article is not found. I want to read it, fix it, damn it. Also, I'm not responsible for you baiting 12, don't drag me into something between the two of you.
12, if you're offended that's fine, but until you know for sure how offended I am don't drag me into it.
I think the both of you are acting like four-year-olds, and I think the both of you should shut up and got to YOUR ROOMS!
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Ok, I've had my piece of the excitement. I'm done.
Wait... Just so you guys know, we savages are devising a plan to retake North America. It starts with a breeding program so that we'll look more like you and fall below your savage-radar. Then we'll kick your asses back into the ocean just when you think we're gone and you're safe.
Now... I'm done.
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12, if you're offended that's fine, but until you know for sure how offended I am don't drag me into it.
I didn't drag you into anything, dear. YOU YOURSELF said "savage- that's right up there with prairie nigger". I even quoted it to point out why I suggested he apologize. Don't act like this is somehow MY argument. I'm not a Native American. I couldn't actually care less what people call you. But I won't sit by and let one member blatantly insult another. If you weren't insulted; fine. Big girl. You aren't the only member to possibly read these threads, however, and being as how the 'insult' is directed at Native Americans in general and was posted in a public forum; it is highly possible another member reads him using the term 'savages' and is offended. The point is; it was unacceptable.
All he ( or YOU) had to do was say, "We talked. We're good. He was just fucking with me and kidding around" and I wouldn't have had anything else to say. But nobody wanted to set things straight; only to argue. So there ya go.
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We talked, we're good, he was just fucking around and kidding with me.
And by the way, I already apologized in private message.
I don't think either one of you had your heads right, but that's just MHO.
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I'd like to be called "savage" it sounds cool :-P
Speaking of that term, didnt Jefferson call indians "merciless indian savages" in the Declaration of Independance?
i have a freind whos an indian and we like to joke about that.
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I have a friend who is an Actual Indian. She wouldn't mind being called Indian lol, however we started a joke a little while ago were we would say racist things to each other (more making fun of racists than anything else). It was funny at first, but a few of us think the joke is over now, it's making us feel bad. :|
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I have the solution. ABBA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibtOshtX7T0#noexternalembed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibtOshtX7T0#noexternalembed)
It's the only band all African-Americans don't like --> Contrabbas
It's the only music where white people dance better on then any of the other races -->Proabbas
Asians playback it the best --> Playabbas
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I totally see where Jay was coming from. I also thought Tweek was being a prick. Then again, I happen to know that Tweek is a prick.
Tweek, maybe you have a new magic monitor, but I have an old fashioned one and that makes it hard to read tone and intent.
I'm glad it's all resolved and all... I just think you shouldn't have gotten so defensive toward 12.
As an aside, it doesn't sit well with me to throw the "freedom of speech" argument into the face of someone who has defended that freedom for you.
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prairie nigger
I learned a new slur today. Hooray!
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Here ya go, xolik. You can learn a new slur everyday. (http://www.johncglass.com/racialslurs.htm)
Also,the AIM wedsite for anyone who wants to know what is currently offending the easily offended. (http://www.aimovement.org/)
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Disclaimer: I respect AIM and what they do and stand for. I am flying the sarcasm flag.
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Call me just about anything ... just don't call me late for dinner.
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<snip>
As an aside, it doesn't sit well with me to throw the "freedom of speech" argument into the face of someone who has defended that freedom for you.
Out of curiosity, Detta...
Does this mean that a person should never have a debate about freedom (or defend their own rights to their freedoms) or the Constitution or the Bill of Rights with someone that has served any time in the armed forces?
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Jesus tap dancing christ. This again?
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Jesus tap dancing christ. This again?
Hey! I wasn't here before. I was on vacation. So, yes, this AGAIN. And, the question wasn't directed to you. And, your answer implies that I'm resurrecting the big argument in the thread when clearly I'm not. I'm simply wondering about Detta's comment, which is pretty far removed from the Tweek and 12 showdown regarding freedom and racial slurs.
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Out of curiosity, Detta...
Does this mean that a person should never have a debate about freedom (or defend their own rights to their freedoms) or the Constitution or the Bill of Rights with someone that has served any time in the armed forces?
Hmm, no I don't quite mean that. People are free to debate whatever they want. But when someone yells racial slurs and then gets punched in the face for it...it's not really going to fly to yell "HAY, FREE SPEECH!!". I don't consider that a debate.
Free speech means that you can say what you want without fear of consequences from the government. Certain people made that right possible and others hide behind it when they get an unfavorable reaction to what they said. It puts a bad taste in my mouth, that's all.
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Hmm, no I don't quite mean that. People are free to debate whatever they want. But when someone yells racial slurs and then gets punched in the face for it...it's not really going to fly to yell "HAY, FREE SPEECH!!". I don't consider that a debate.
I totally agree with you on everything you said, except the getting punched in the face part. I don't know that I'd agree that someone should be physically assaulted because of their words (in your specific instance). As to the underlying idea, I totally concur.
Free speech means that you can say what you want without fear of consequences from the government. Certain people made that right possible and others hide behind it when they get an unfavorable reaction to what they said. It puts a bad taste in my mouth, that's all.
I suppose I understand the bad taste; the one in my mouth is just usually caused by something totally different. :-)
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Free speech means that you can say what you want without fear of consequences from the government. Certain people made that right possible and others hide behind it when they get an unfavorable reaction to what they said. It puts a bad taste in my mouth, that's all.
that's what it means. but now the government has put in so many qualifications (such as: okay, it doesn't apply on public airwaves, and it doesn't apply if you work for us, and it doesn't work if your a minor (for the record, I'm not) and you have to get a license to just about anything) that Free Speech is practically dead anyway.
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Free Speech is practically dead anyway.
It is for you. Now STFU.
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Hey! I wasn't here before. I was on vacation. So, yes, this AGAIN. And, the question wasn't directed to you. And, your answer implies that I'm resurrecting the big argument in the thread when clearly I'm not. I'm simply wondering about Detta's comment, which is pretty far removed from the Tweek and 12 showdown regarding freedom and racial slurs.
A simple "oh fuck you, 12" wouldv'e sufficed.
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Oh fuck you, 12.
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Later, Daddy, later.
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Later, Daddy, later.
Can I watch?
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Can I watch?
Can I take pictures?
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Can I watch?
Can I be your Fluffer?
Can I take pictures?
How are you with video?