The Geek Forum
Main Forums => Political Opinions => Topic started by: 12AX7 on August 16, 2010, 04:31:16 AM
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100816/ap_on_re_us/us_staten_island_attacks
Some of Port Richmond's black residents assert that newcomers' presence touches a nerve. Mike Mason, 47, a teacher who works in New Jersey, said the arrival of Mexican immigrants had changed the texture of the community.
"America has got to do something as far as immigration goes," he said. "In the morning you can see the streets lined with undocumented workers ... That's always in the back of people's minds."
Some of Port Richmond's blackwhite residents assert that newcomers' presence touches a nerve. Mike Mason, 47, a teacher who works in New Jersey, said the arrival of Mexican immigrantsNegroes had changed the texture of the community.
"America has got to do something as far as immigrationintegration goes," he said. "In the morning you can see the streets lined with undocumented workersgang members ... That's always in the back of people's minds."
And although most of the suspects were described as young black men and investigated for bias crimes, a grand jury has indicted only one of seven people arrested on a hate-crime charge.
most of the suspects were described as young blackwhite men and investigated for biasHATE crimes, a grand jury has indicted only one of seven people arrested on a hate-crime charge. The media, however, released the names and occupations of the white guys; who have lost their jobs, have received death threats, and are permanently branded via internet as racist, possibly white supremacists.
ah. The hypocrisy just slays me.
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I just love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.
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I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm missing something.
How is that story NOT describing racism in action. As I read it in its original format (without your edits), racism comes through loud and clear.
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I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm missing something.
How is that story NOT describing racism in action. As I read it in its original format (without your edits), racism comes through loud and clear.
erm.. psst... "Sarcasm" ;-)
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I was being sarcastic. When there are white people involved; racism is the first word out of everyone's mouth. The white people's identities and locations, and sometimes even workplaces, are disclosed; whereas here all you get is "the suspects were described as young black men" and that only ONE has even been charged with a hate crime. And what is a "bias crime"? A hate crime for non-whites? How about Mr. Mason, who said, " the arrival of Mexican immigrants had changed the texture of the community." Can you imagine that statement even being printed if that was a white person speaking about blacks?
That was my point. I believe that the twisted way races are represented in the media has direct effect on race relations nationwide; and the effect is intentional, and detrimental.
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There's big money to be made by the exploiting the culture of victimhood.
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your ancestors enslaved us, give us money forever!
you know what? I wasn't involved in the slavery crap! in fact, I'm pretty sure none of my ancestors were either! what people conveniently don't remember is that more than half the country fought against slavery, and only a tiny fraction of the country as a whole actually owned any.
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your ancestors enslaved us, give us money forever!
you know what? I wasn't involved in the slavery crap! in fact, I'm pretty sure none of my ancestors were either! what people conveniently don't remember is that more than half the country fought against slavery, and only a tiny fraction of the country as a whole actually owned any.
You're trolling, right? RIGHT?!?!?!?
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You're trolling, right? RIGHT?!?!?!?
are you gonna feed me or what?
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100816/ap_on_re_us/us_staten_island_attacks
Some of Port Richmond's blackwhite residents assert that newcomers' presence touches a nerve. Mike Mason, 47, a teacher who works in New Jersey, said the arrival of Mexican immigrantsNegroes had changed the texture of the community.
"America has got to do something as far as immigrationintegration goes," he said. "In the morning you can see the streets lined with undocumented workersgang members ... That's always in the back of people's minds."
most of the suspects were described as young blackwhite men and investigated for biasHATE crimes, a grand jury has indicted only one of seven people arrested on a hate-crime charge. The media, however, released the names and occupations of the white guys; who have lost their jobs, have received death threats, and are permanently branded via internet as racist, possibly white supremacists.
ah. The hypocrisy just slays me.
I'm kind of glad I live in an area that doesn't have "gangs" and violence, but I think I would be really unhappy if I had people who came into my country, who don't have jobs and don't plan on finding one, and hang on the streets all day. I find that actually a waste of a life.
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are you gonna feed me or what?
Only if someone actually gives me the go ahead to feed you your own heart after scooping it out of your chest with a grapefruit spoon.
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It's hypocrisy when its white Americans complaining about immigration, as well. How quickly people forget that they're all descended from immigrants.
Only if someone actually gives me the go ahead to feed you your own heart after scooping it out of your chest with a grapefruit spoon.
Why a spoon, Vespertine? Why not an axe?
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It's hypocrisy when its white Americans complaining about immigration, as well. How quickly people forget that they're all descended from immigrants.
Why a spoon, Vespertine? Why not an axe?
because it would be more painful.
and no, its not. my ancestors immigrated legally. I have no problems with Mexicans who want to become Americans.
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It's hypocrisy when its white Americans complaining about immigration, as well. How quickly people forget that they're all descended from immigrants.
The hypocrisy I was referring to is that of the media. Whether it's based in political correctness, or based in politics (writing/running stories a particular way, in certain locales, to promote a political agenda).
EDIT FROM V: Even though it shows that I edited your post, I didn't really. I accidentally hit modify when I meant to hit quote and I got my whole reply (below) typed into your post and saved before I realized what I had done. Then I went back and undid it and left you this note. :-D
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because it would be more painful.
and no, its not. my ancestors immigrated legally. I have no problems with Mexicans who want to become Americans.
If you consider genocide and land theft to be legal, then sure.
Also, the only mention of illegal immigrants was the quote from the schoolteacher, and nothing in the article confirms this. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but the article seems to be saying that there's an increasing Hispanic presence in this particular community, and people are assuming they're illegal immigrants. The people who are being attacked seem to be here legally.
The hypocrisy I was referring to is that of the media. Whether it's based in political correctness, or based in politics (writing/running stories a particular way, in certain locales, to promote a political agenda).
This is also true - hypocrisy all around!
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The hypocrisy I was referring to is that of the media. Whether it's based in political correctness, or based in politics (writing/running stories a particular way, in certain locales, to promote a political agenda).
It's interesting you should bring that up. I agree about the hypocrisy, but I've actually now seen an example of what I consider to be a responsible editorial decision from one of our local news outlets.
An undercover cop (and two others) got ambushed during a drug deal a couple weeks ago. One of the officers died. The most recent update I read in the local news was that another suspect had been arrested. Near the end of the story the article said that three of the suspects are African-American and the fourth is Hispanic, "and is here legally". They NEVER used to say anything about that. I brought it up to my sister who tells me that she sees it all the time now on the same news outlet. We came to the conclusion that the editorial board is making an attempt to diffuse the state of race relations here in Phoenix, and both my sister and I applaud their efforts.
Backstory: Here in Arizona, immigration (specifically anyone who even remotely resembles a Hispanic) is something that almost no one can talk about without shouting...things have gotten very nasty, and if you ask me, there's real violence simmering just below the surface.
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If you consider genocide and land theft to be legal, then sure.
to be precise: all of my ancestors that I am aware of (one of the lines in particular I can trace back to Czechoslovakia) did not participate in anything of the kind, since they immigrated at around the turn of the century. as for the lines I cannot trace back, I suppose it's possible, but statistically they are likely to have immigrated around the same time, well after any genocide or theft took place. should I be punished on the possibility that my ancestors - who I am not responsible for in any case - committed some sort of crime against humanity?
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to be precise: all of my ancestors that I am aware of (one of the lines in particular I can trace back to Czechoslovakia) did not participate in anything of the kind, since they immigrated at around the turn of the century. as for the lines I cannot trace back, I suppose it's possible, but statistically they are likely to have immigrated around the same time, well after any genocide or theft took place. should I be punished on the possibility that my ancestors - who I am not responsible for in any case - committed some sort of crime against humanity?
Did I say you should? All I'm saying is that Americans who look down on immigration are, in my opinion, hypocrites; we're all descended from immigrants. I mentioned this because, as I said, to me the article seemed to be implying a bias against all immigrants, including the legal ones.
I'm also saying that if we want to get really technical about legal vs. illegal immigration, then we'd do well to remember the legal citizens are only here in the first place because our predecessors committed some hardcore atrocities. I'm sure the indigenous Americans would have much preferred that the invading Englishmen merely stole their more menial labor jobs.
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It's interesting you should bring that up. I agree about the hypocrisy, but I've actually now seen an example of what I consider to be a responsible editorial decision from one of our local news outlets.
An undercover cop (and two others) got ambushed during a drug deal a couple weeks ago. One of the officers died. The most recent update I read in the local news was that another suspect had been arrested. Near the end of the story the article said that three of the suspects are African-American and the fourth is Hispanic, "and is here legally". They NEVER used to say anything about that. I brought it up to my sister who tells me that she sees it all the time now on the same news outlet. We came to the conclusion that the editorial board is making an attempt to diffuse the state of race relations here in Phoenix, and both my sister and I applaud their efforts.
That's awesome. Kinda sad in a way; but awesome in the attempt.
Backstory: Here in Arizona, immigration (specifically anyone who even remotely resembles a Hispanic) is something that almost no one can talk about without shouting...things have gotten very nasty, and if you ask me, there's real violence simmering just below the surface.
You've heard my opinion on immigration; but I have to say... it's got to be a bitter pill to move into a place with names like San Antonio, El Paso, Casa Grande, Yuma, Chula Vista, San Diego, and Los Angeles and be told you're here illegally by someone pale white and named something like Axel Fisher.
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should I be punished on the possibility that my ancestors - who I am not responsible for in any case - committed some sort of crime against humanity?
What about Budweiser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budweis)? Someone has to pay.
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Ves that's great that a media outlet is doing that there. It's nice to hear something good for a change.
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to be precise: all of my ancestors that I am aware of (one of the lines in particular I can trace back to Czechoslovakia) did not participate in anything of the kind, since they immigrated at around the turn of the century. as for the lines I cannot trace back, I suppose it's possible, but statistically they are likely to have immigrated around the same time, well after any genocide or theft took place. should I be punished on the possibility that my ancestors - who I am not responsible for in any case - committed some sort of crime against humanity?
I'm going to clue you in on how some of us Native Americans feel about people who think like this. You say you are here "legally" and that your ancestors immigrated "legally", but they came through an illegal government that killed and displaced and dispossessed the original inhabitants of the land.
Just because a thief says you can have something they stole, doesn't make it right for you to keep it and by keeping it, especially if you know it was stolen, you, by principle, become a thief.
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but they came through an illegal government that killeds and displacedes and dispossessed the original inhabitants of the land.
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funny how you use the word "you". Its almost like you think I personally came to north America and slaughtered all the Indians. well I didn't. and all the people who did are long dead. All I can do is look back and say "well that sucked". it isn't like every non-Indian can just pack up and leave the entire western hemisphere - and I'm pretty sure you don't want us to. So what do you want? recognition? you have it. there are countless memorials to and reminders of the Native Americans struggle against the White Man. do you want favoritism? you have that too - I imagine that if you have enough Indian blood to call yourself a Native American, you probably had little difficulty getting into college. What Native Americans really want is guilt - you want to be able to remind every non-indigenous person you see (and this logically extends to non-whites - after all, you applied it to me, and none of my ancestors had left Europe at the time) that they are living on stolen ground.
okay, that's enough vitriol for now.
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In my experience, most Native Americans don't bring it up unless it's already the subject at hand, much less want something for it (a la "reparations").
I mean, I've never seen any seeking guilt; like you're saying. It's actually a pretty quiet subject as far as I know. I'm sure there are complaints, and grievances,
but I've never seen nor heard of any Native Americans pushing it in your face or 'reminding' anyone without - as I said - the conversation already being at hand.
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Everything he said.
Obviously, you are ignorant of everything that has happened and continues to happen to Native Americans. Honestly, you believe Native Americans are after guilt? At the risk of being a cop out instead of listing how terribly wrong you are, kindly shut it.
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continues to happen? unless you are referring to whites continuously occupying what was once Indian land, I really don't see anything happening in the present day. I certainly don't see any discrimination - but I suppose I could get it straight from the horses mouth. care to throw in an example, Wunderkind?
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Just to add my experience on the subject, try visiting a local Native American clinic or a Native American university and you might see what I am referring to.
Of course, America's infrastructure and current economic situation can explain some of what you might see, but it should certainly put reduced prices on medication and tuition in perspective for you.
I am certainly no expert on the subject, but I have been trying to learn more and it's all my dad talks about anymore, really.
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they don't have to go to exclusively Native American clinics/colleges. they have as much right to go to regular medical and academic institutions as anyone else.
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In terms of current day grievances, here's what I can come up with off the top of my head.
1. Archaeologists digging up and displaying the bones of ancestors in the face of strenuous objection of the indigenous people.
2. Holy sites desecrated so that someone can put up a building/bridge/structure of some sort.
3. A local example: one of the ski resorts up north creates "fake" snow using reclaimed water...spraying it all over Native American holy ground. It's seen as a massive desecration.
As I said, these are off the top of my head. I'm quite sure that if you were to get off your lazy ass and do some of your own work, Google could show you a gazillion other examples. Fuck, you challenge Wunderkind as though you're, well, challenging her. Knock it off. Do some research. Read something.
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1. this happens all the time, to all races. it's called archeology.
2. the Indians have a lot of holy ground. making something holy ground is something that should be kept at a minimum. In any case, the same thing happens every time any sort of religious structure is removed to make room for something else. thing change, live with it. you cant expect something to remain unchanged for eternity because some medicine man declared it to be sacred a thousand years ago.
3....what? shouldn't they be more concerned with the fact that there's, you know, a ski resort there? who cares about the fake snow? you need to explain this one more fully?
I realize I could use Google, but as I said I would like to hear it from the horses mouth. and I'm sorry if that seemed like some sort of challenge.
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The challenge seems to be trying to get you to understand that there are things that Native Americans respect.
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1. this happens all the time, to all races. it's called archeology.
2. the Indians have a lot of holy ground. making something holy ground is something that should be kept at a minimum. In any case, the same thing happens every time any sort of religious structure is removed to make room for something else. thing change, live with it. you cant expect something to remain unchanged for eternity because some medicine man declared it to be sacred a thousand years ago.
3....what? shouldn't they be more concerned with the fact that there's, you know, a ski resort there? who cares about the fake snow? you need to explain this one more fully?
I realize I could use Google, but as I said I would like to hear it from the horses mouth. and I'm sorry if that seemed like some sort of challenge.
1. You try going to the nearest graveyard to your house and digging up the bones to display on your front yard. Make sure you tell anyone who complains that it's archaeology.
2. There are over 450,000 churches in the United States. Should they be desecrated at will because there are too many of them?
3. It's easy for you to say "who cares" when you haven't got the first clue about these peoples' beliefs or why they consider it a desecration. It's not like they've got a random vendetta against fake snow. Vespertine is right; you need to read more and get some perspective, for dignity's sake. You can't just waive away the cultural beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people because they don't make sense to you.
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the problem with the whole old Indian burial ground thing is that the property was "stolen" centuries earlier, and during the intervening years was most likely sold numerous times. to force respect of such holy land would deprive the current owner of his property, for no fault of his own.
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Fuck, you challenge Wunderkind as though you're, well, challenging her. Knock it off. Do some research. Read something.
In all fairness; I've discovered that that's just how he comes across. He's a bit ...'unpolished', blunt, and direct. I can believe he
didnt mean anything snide or challenging in a rude way.
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1. You try going to the nearest graveyard to your house and digging up the bones to display on your front yard. Make sure you tell anyone who complains that it's archaeology.
2. There are over 450,000 churches in the United States. Should they be desecrated at will because there are too many of them?
3. It's easy for you to say "who cares" when you haven't got the first clue about these peoples' beliefs or why they consider it a desecration. It's not like they've got a random vendetta against fake snow. Vespertine is right; you need to read more and get some perspective, for dignity's sake. You can't just waive away the cultural beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people because they don't make sense to you.
I don't own any graveyards. the people who do this own the land or have permission from the landowners. yes, it was stolen a long time ago, but it would deprive the current owners of their right to property.
if they sell them, sure. Christianity is not linked to particular locations, at least most Christianity. and those churches actually have worshipers who own the land they worship on.
all right, I concede the water thing, but that's only because I just realized what you meant by "reclaimed" water. they could at least use regular water. in any case it's a moot point because (if the article I just found refers to the same incident as what Vespertine was talking about) the judge rules in the Indians favour.
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12 is right, I am rude. and blunt. and tactless. and insensitive. but I'm equally tactless to everyone!
and I'm also going to bed.
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meant by "reclaimed" water
:-o OH SHIT!! You mean. . .
:oops: Oh!
...shit! :x
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I have a Run To The Hills earworm now. Thanks everyone. Also RIP Howard Zinn.
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You know, you people are all pretty awesome. All of you. 8-)
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There's big money to be made by the exploiting the culture of victimhood.
Truer words have never been spoken, sir.
You know, you people are all pretty awesome. All of you. 8-)
I might be in love with you, ivan.
... I just need a little time to figure it out. I'm really after more space. It's not you, it's me. I'd rather have you as a friend. I hope you can forgive me.
Whoa. I think I just got whiplash.
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You're right 12, it's not usually brought up and thrown in peoples faces nearly as often as I would like to see it brought up and thrown in peoples faces. We did try that a while back and it didn't go over so well. The government sent in the FBI and some fighter jets.
There are very few willing to start riots over it anymore because so few us think it will make a difference and it's very hard when you're numbers are so little and nobody seems to care to join you.
I haven't always been a radical over the way some people act. I haven't always cared about how some people take the "well it happened a long time ago and they shouldn't care about it because it happened so long ago" road. I was even one of those people before.
Until I had a chat with an elder of mine.
It didn't happen so long ago. There is still a generation that can remember being taken from their families and put on busses and driven to white schools, having their hair cut and being told that they were white. They still remember being beaten for speaking their own language and being refused a meal if they did not wear white people clothes. And they aren't as old as you might think.
Just last month I told someone that their joke was offensive to me because I was Native American they acted shocked and asked, "You mean you guys aren't all dead yet?" Granted I live near ignorance capital, but I'm weary of it, it's bullshit. And I do throw it in people's faces as often as possible without any recompense expected.
I'm not saying people born on this soil don't belong on this soil. I'm only asking for a little respect. I mean, if your going to live on stolen land, don't you think a little respect is due? (<-- not meant in a hauty way, just asking)
Also Columbus didn't discover shit. I'm tired of that damn story.
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all right, respect I can give. I mean this quite seriously when I say that the Indians were serious badasses.
oh, and what an idiot. seriously.
also, one could give credit to Columbus for making the presence of the new world widely known. the Vikings sort of kept quiet about it, and obviously the Indians couldn't tell anyone. thee may have been a few others, but the point is that most people in the old world didn't know about the new until Columbus saw it. (Actually it was after he died that we found out it was the new world; for the rest of his life, including several return trips, Columbus always believed he had gotten to India)
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Honestly, who names their kid "Amerigo?" That'll never catch on.
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Honestly, who names their kid "Amerigo?" That'll never catch on.
Hectar!