Topic: Taxes (Read 5588 times)

jlinstrom · « **on:** February 03, 2009, 02:33:39 PM »

all this caca about lowering taxes (get the gov't off the back of the hardworking american businessman) b.s.
How about a thought experiment - what if we removed all taxes?
then what?
how does anything get paid for? I'm not doing it for nothing.
If they aren't dropped to zero, some other re-pubic-an will claim to drop taxes EVEN FURTHER, so peg the lowest rate.
Now can we start the serious talk about what a government should and should not do to/for it's citizens?
I'm depressed that all those not opposed to 'some taxes' haven't pressed the tax cutters with this argument, call their bluff.

Wunderkind · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2009, 02:41:19 PM »

Let's start with...

Who are you?

Go introduce yourself in the appropriate forums, n00b.

ivan · « **Reply #2 on:** February 03, 2009, 03:30:48 PM »

Yeah, like in the Commie forums.

xolik · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2009, 03:38:10 PM »

I'll feed the troll! It's always fun when the 7th graders take their first social science class then get off to posting!

Quote from: jlinstrom on February 03, 2009, 02:33:39 PM

all this caca about lowering taxes (get the gov't off the back of the hardworking american businessman) b.s.

How dare people, especially in California which is one of the highest taxed states in the nation, want to lessen their tax burden during a period of an economic downturn? Clearly we need to raise taxes instead. Then we can tax ourselves to prosperity!

Quote from: jlinstrom on February 03, 2009, 02:33:39 PM

How about a thought experiment - what if we removed all taxes?
then what?
how does anything get paid for?

Who is seriously advocating the complete elimination of the tax system? It's a good thing you're not using extremes for your argument because that would be just stupid.

Quote from: jlinstrom on February 03, 2009, 02:33:39 PM

I'm not doing it for nothing.

Doing what for nothing?

Quote from: jlinstrom on February 03, 2009, 02:33:39 PM

If they aren't dropped to zero, some other re-pubic-an will claim to drop taxes EVEN FURTHER, so peg the lowest rate.

This doesn't make any sense at all but your horrible grammar, lack of coherent sentence structure and juvenile name calling have convinced me that your logic is unassailable.

Quote from: jlinstrom on February 03, 2009, 02:33:39 PM

Now can we start the serious talk about what a government should and should not do to/for it's citizens?

Yes, let's. How about we start with a good example of how our piss poor public education system churns out nothing but barely functionally people. Where or where could I find an example to use?

Quote from: jlinstrom on February 03, 2009, 02:33:39 PM

I'm depressed that all those not opposed to 'some taxes' haven't pressed the tax cutters with this argument, call their bluff.

What exactly is your argument? You're not clear. Is it that when the suggestion of an evil tax cut comes up, immediately scream about how 'well why don't we just get rid of ALL taxes, Mister Smartypants? Then what, huh? GOT YOU!' because if that's your argument....

President Obama would like a word with you.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123111279694652423.html

BizB · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2009, 03:38:23 PM »

www.lp.org

xolik · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2009, 03:42:07 PM »

Quote from: BizB on February 03, 2009, 03:38:23 PM

www.lp.org

Careful there, BizB. He just might call you a LOLbertarian!

Novice · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2009, 04:34:44 PM »

Quote from: jlinstrom on February 03, 2009, 02:33:39 PM

Now can we start the serious talk about what a government should and should not do to/for it's citizens?

It's about time we got serious! Thanks, new guy!!

Min · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2009, 05:19:01 PM »

Quote from: xolik on February 03, 2009, 03:38:10 PM

Yes, let's. How about we start with a good example of how our piss poor public education system churns out nothing but barely functionally people. Where or where could I find an example to use?

I am so fucking tired of people bitching about our "piss poor education system". When we were behind in the space race, it was education's fault, but when we landed the first fucking man on the moon, did education get credit? No. All people do is bitch about education, so the GOVERNMENT sets REGULATIONS to try to make it better and all they do is make it worse and then everything gets blamed on the teachers, who are just trying to do what they are told to do by people who never set foot in a fucking classroom. Screw you. All of you.

ivan · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2009, 05:26:37 PM »

Quote from: Detta on February 03, 2009, 05:19:01 PM

Screw you. All of you.

Name the time and place.

ivan · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2009, 05:38:50 PM »

And by the way, I agree.

xolik · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2009, 07:07:50 PM »

Quote from: Detta on February 03, 2009, 05:19:01 PM

I am so fucking tired of people bitching about our "piss poor education system". When we were behind in the space race, it was education's fault, but when we landed the first fucking man on the moon, did education get credit? No. All people do is bitch about education, so the GOVERNMENT sets REGULATIONS to try to make it better and all they do is make it worse and then everything gets blamed on the teachers, who are just trying to do what they are told to do by people who never set foot in a fucking classroom. Screw you. All of you.

Teacher spotted.

Alright then, I'll be a little more specific rather than using a gross generalization. I'll keep it just to my home state, California, which ranks almost, but not quite, dead last in terms of academic achievements despite the large amounts of money that we keep funneling into it. The dropout rate is through the roof so what's the answer that our brilliant leaders come up with? Let's dumb down the exams some more. That will boost the numbers for sure! Except it doesn't. All this time, money and failed program after failed program and we're still near dead last. The public education system in California is indeed 'piss poor' at best.

At least I'm not including southern schools that insist on creationism being right there next to evolution in the science classes because 'it's a viable alternative theory.'

Detta I know it sucks when you show up and bust your ass to provide a quality education to our children just to have somebody like me come on by and lay a fragrant pantload all over the school systems and I'm sorry if I pissed you off. I know there are excellent public schools out there, but California is almost a lost cause. I swear this freaking state is ungovernable.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:17:31 PM »

I blame Dali. Ooops, wrong site....

BizB · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2009, 10:02:50 PM »

The fault lies not with the teachers or the schools. The fault lies in the breakdown of the nuclear family and our society's demand (albeit self imposed) for both parents to work and neither parent to parent.

Toledo Public Schools spends $13,000 per student per year.
I pay $3,000 for my daughter to attend a Catholic school. Which school do you think has more parent involvement? Which school do you think has a higher graduation rate? Which school do you think has lower paid teachers? Which school do you think has better behaved kids?

The answer to all of those is - the Catholic school.

...but this thread is about making fun of the thread starter - errr... I mean - taxes.

12AX7 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:51:41 AM »

Quote from: xolik on February 03, 2009, 07:07:50 PM

At least I'm not including southern schools that insist on creationism being right there next to evolution in the science classes because 'it's a viable alternative theory.'

That might be a fun stigma to play with, and most of us here in the south don't really mind; but it's not the facts. I went to school from first grade until high school graduation in South Carolina; and I can tell you there's no creationism being insisted on. There was no creationism even mentioned; at least in my time in class. We studied science just the same as everyone else.
A contributing factor in why southern schools are way behind is the teacher's union operating in a non-union state (SC); in addition to BizB's reasonings.

BizB · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2009, 07:35:52 AM »

Of course creationism wasn't taught when you were in school... back then, it wasn't even history yet!

Demosthenes · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:00:58 AM »

Quote from: xolik on February 03, 2009, 03:42:07 PM

Careful there, BizB. He just might call you a LOLbertarian!

Bwahaha. I'll have to remember that one. "LOLbertarian" makes me think of people captioning a bunch of funny pictures of Harry Browne and Ayn Rand or something.

On the subject of education, I tend to agree at least in part with BizB's summary of the issue.

I think that you can have the best possible school system with the best possible funding, and the best possible teachers, but if the parents of the kids in that school don't give a damn, your results will be mediocre at best.

To muddy the waters further, I personally think that a lot of the "system" itself is flawed, particularly where its goals are oriented.

What is the point of public education? Is it to teach people to think, teach them to learn?

It certainly wasn't where I went to school. Oh, they made a nice pretense like it was, but every single aspect of the practice dictated otherwise.

So is it instead the goal to prepare people for the workplace?

In my experience, that means preparing someone to handle a very dull, repetitive, unchallenging grind. Because that's what the workplace is for most people, truth be told.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know my high school was pretty good at that, considering that's how the school itself was. At that institution, students were (all but openly) encouraged to conform, to not think for one's self, most CERTAINLY to not achieve more than one's peers, and to do things the way one was told, no matter how stupid or even WRONG those things were (and I'm talking academics here... where teaching someone wrong has a pretty serious negative impact). It was very Harrison Bergeron.

And don't think for a minute that I learned about Harrison Bergeron in high school. Or anything else useful to me, for that matter. My education during those years came largely from self-study. If I'd left it up to my high school, I wouldn't have learned a thing.

Oh, there were individuals, certain teachers that were at my high school that definitely bucked that whenever they could. But they were few and far between. And I think the reason for that is that the system itself wears down those individuals to the point where they eventually leave teaching, or just finally conform to the system's goals themselves in time.

I think if that's the stated goal, my high school at least succeeded wildly at preparing most of its students for the workplace. As for those of us who went there that weren't happy with being taught what to think (instead of how to think), that system was a total, utter failure for us, since it taught us nothing about what we really needed to succeed in life... especially if "succeeding in life" meant something other than being a little cog in a big machine.

And that has little to do with parents, and everything to do with the intent of the system itself.

That was the high school from which I graduated, and admittedly it was a lot worse than most I've been to, and I went to a lot of schools as a kid and as a teen, in all parts of the country.

But that underlying theme seemed to be pervasive wherever I went. The goal seemed to be "we need to get these kids used to monotony, and doing as they're told, so that when they get to the workplace, they're obedient, productive members of the team, and not thinking too much on their own."

I realize how paranoid that sounds, but that doesn't mean it isn't true, even on a subconscious level.

And I don't think there's a "fix" for that. I think it's endemic to the very concept of "public" education itself, because obedient, non-thinking, productive workers are in the "public" best interest, particularly when you consider that our government is largely owned and directed by those who have a vested interest in industry and a docile, obedient labor sector to fuel it.

And that's my $0.02.

For those of you who were recipients of public education and didn't have the benefit of having Detta as a math teacher, that's "two cents".

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2009, 11:12:38 AM »

I would advocate the end to all taxes (all involuntary taxes, that is), and I don't think that's extreme at all.

As for public education, many aspects suck, and many are fine, though they tend to be the parts that aren't actually involved in book-larnin'. There are good teachers and bad ones just like any other large group of people. I tend to think that complaints on teacher pay are a bit overblown, because for one, they choose their profession, and two, it's not that bad. You can say that's a good thing as you want teachers in it for the love of the job and not the money, but either way it's not exactly an incentive to attract the best and brightest.

The point about the parents is dead-on. If you don't have a will to do independent study or a general love of learning, which I would say comes in large part from your home environment, it would take a pretty special teacher to change that, regardless of funding.
This goes double for "creationism". Students whose parents want them learning it should be teaching it to them anyway, and parents who disagree with it should be teaching their own kids what a crock it is, regardless of whether school teaches it or not.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2009, 11:16:06 AM »

Exactly. On all counts.

ivan · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2009, 11:58:15 AM »

Quote from: BizB on February 04, 2009, 07:35:52 AM

Of course creationism wasn't taught when you were in school... back then, it wasn't even history yet!

*rimshot*

Hey, honey, you musta been something before electricity!

*rimshot*

pbsaurus · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2009, 05:47:51 PM »

I thought the reason for public education was to keep the younguns from competing with the adults for the menial labor jobs.

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Author Topic: Taxes (Read 5588 times)

12AX7