Topic: Demosthenes Wanted Ranting (Read 5284 times)

Rico · « **on:** February 17, 2004, 12:05:13 PM »

Well, Demo asked for more ranting, so here's my attempt. Does lazy, as well as stupid count?

Okay, in my profession we actually have quite a few females working along side the males. Since it's a job that often requires as much mental strength as physical, women really have the chance to excel in it, unlike many of the other Army occupational specialties where the females in a unit are often, and sometimes unfairly, limited on what they are allowed to accomplish. The point of that beast of a sentence is to point out that I work with some great girls that really make a difference, but there is this one...

She has been on three deployments with us and everytime it's the samething. While everyone around her is rushing around to get everything setup and functional, she sits in a chair and reads, falls asleep, or stand off to the side somewhere and talks with observers. If you ask her to do something and you are her immediate suppervisor, she'll sort of do it, but it'll take her a long time to get to it. If you don't have any possition in her chain of command, she will just look at you, litterally.

This girl has pulled this kind of crap so many times on just the few deplotments that she's been on that she is just detested by every member of the team. It's not like we haven't tried either. just a few months ago we were deployed out to a Korean Army base to assist with their opperations a give a demonstration of our own stand-alone-capabilities. While there, this girl sat in a chair, in the middle of a room, and had the other members of the team scambling around her to get things up and running. The way we work is that everyone has their own systems, which they set up themselves, and then some of the more technically inclined people, such as myself, get the network up between the two sides of our opperation. The system ops are resposible for getting their system up and running, and then on the network.

This girl sat there the whole time and let other people set her system up for her. Then at one point when it wasn't connecting to the network and I told her to look into it, she told me she didn't know how and went back to reading. Now, she had been on a couple of these things already, how in the hell does she not know how to use her own system!? I let it go and fixed it myself. Through out the day, samething, over and over.

Finally a the end of the day I took her to the side and had a talk with her.

"Look, everyone is getting a little upset with you."

"Why?"

"Because your sandbagging, and..."

"Don't call me names."

"What?"

"Don't call me names, I don't like that."

"...oookay? Well, anyway, you've been out here long enough that you should know your own system, and you don't."

"No one ever showed me how."

"It's not their job to show you how. You need to either ask, or figure it out, but don't sit there and wait for them to just walk over and give you a class."

"blah blah blah [/excuse]"

"Yeah, right. You also need to stop sitting on your butt while everyone else around you is working to get setup."

"I don't know what to do."

"So find something. Ask somebody. We have too much to do to have you sandbagging like that."

"If you're going to insult me, I'm leaving. Goodbye"

"What the... Are you fucking serrious?"

"You can't cuss at me."

"Really? #$%^% #$%^# #$%^# [/long string of four letter words and other pent up stuff] ...and if you don't stop dragging ass, I swear to God, you're getting a pipe in the back of the head. People like you get other people killed because you're to stupid to do your job, and to lazy to learn anyway. If we were in the desert right now, which we may be in another month, and we're in the field, you can guarantee I will frag your snadbaggin-ass in a heartbeat before I let you get one of my battle-buddies killed. Do you understand me, you worthless #$%^?"

"I'm talking to SSG So-and-so about this."

She did, and he asked her if had taken notes...

Anyway, this last deployment, though we asked them not to, her section sent her with us again. She pulled the same crap, so we sent her ass home with a note to her NCO. She griped to the Equal Opportunity guys about it, saying we were being sexist, dispite the fact that there were about 8 other girls out there with us doing just fine. The company asked us to take her back, just to save the heartache of paper work, so we did. We put her on guard-detail since you don't have to move to do it. She fell asleep, of course, so she got a very negetive counceling, and should be getting her Article 15 in the next few weeks.

Saw her NCO today too. Bastard sent her to us because he doesn't like her either. We've decided to send her to Brigade and let her be somebody's driver, or do paperwork, or something. They've got some really crappy jobs planned for her already.

Moral of the story? Well, despite how ticked I get with the Army, sometimes things happen that just make you smile and renew your faith in the system. Too bad it just took too long. Hope that wasn't too boring for you, but it was really nice to get it off the chest.

Anonymous · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2004, 12:11:31 PM »

Can't people get fired in the Army for incompetance?

You need to arm that girl with a hand gun and put her on the front line alone. She'll move her ass. Trust me.

Rico · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2004, 12:16:42 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge

Can't people get fired in the Army for incompetance?

You need to arm that girl with a hand gun and put her on the front line alone. She'll move her ass. Trust me.

The only time I have ever seen her move like she had something to do was when she was enrout to the chow-hall. Yeah, if she gets another Article 15, she can be chaptered out. Her NCO and I were talking about that earlier. He wants to chapter her for "Failure to Adapt," which is fine with me. Our job is too important to have people like that involved. I have to be able to know that the guy next to me has his end covered, because I can't worry about it.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2004, 12:21:26 PM »

I've known people in the Navy to have been basically discharged for being totally incompetent.

All it takes is enough fuckups and enough times showing up late for things and they can do it.

Most of the time it's "non-judicial punishment", i.e., reduction in rank, pay, and privileges.

Have enough of those "non-judicial punishments" on your record though, and eventually someone will recommend you for an OTH ("other than honorable") discharge or a BCD ("bad conduct discharge", or, as we used to refer to it as, a "big chicken dinner"

) the next time you screw up.

The thing is, you have to screw up so many times and in so many ways for it to come to that in the US military that most of the time it's well-deserved and long overdue when it does happen.

Rico · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:12:20 PM »

Exactly, Demo. So, it should be obvious just how lazy this girl is to have folks talk about getting her kicked out.

I've seen people get chaptered for just being bad, but this is the first lazy I've ever seen.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:18:58 PM »

Laziness is one thing.

But consistently not getting things done that you are ordered to get done is insubordination, plain and simple.

Rico · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:23:36 PM »

That's very true. I'm not sure how they do it in the Navy, but the Army is pretty laid back about a lot of things like that sometimes though. In teams, like mine, where you go out and spend months in the field together, we tend to stop noticing rank so much, and it's experience that counts.

That's why PFCs like me get in charge so often and end up ordering NCOs around. I like it because the level of respect you have for each other is to the degree that stuff like that becomes natural.

This girl doesn't understand that respect, so we're getting rid of her.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2004, 03:15:08 PM »

You're an E-4, aren't you?

It works the same way in the Navy... if you're obviously worth salvaging, they'll give you the benefit of the doubt sixteen ways to Sunday.

Most of the time an experienced NCO can tell if one of his people is worth whipping into shape and putting up with, or if that person is just a total shitbag that doesn't deserve to wear the uniform.

I've known some fuckups that got lots of second chances and turned out to be pretty good guys... they just needed some work, and some patience, and some good leadership.

If you've ever been in charge of people for any length of time, you can tell after a while when someone is pretty much not worth it. By getting them back into civilian clothes, you're doing them and your unit a big favour in the long run.

Anonymous · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2004, 03:29:01 PM »

Don't they need to keep people like that around because they can use them as human shields later?

biggyfred · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:06:54 PM »

PFCs are E-3s.

You hit it dead on Rico. Failure to adapt. Throw their ass out.

I was also a sand bagger

but it was because I knew my job so well. I was a switch god, taught by the best switch gods I ever met when I first got to my unit. It was total luck that I got them as mentors. They all got out after I'd been there a year, and I was the big shit as a PFC too. My platoon sergeant gave me carte blanche. I keep his big switch working and made sure the sub switches stay in line, and I didn't have to do any damn thing else. No raising camo. No digging positions. No guard duty.

It was fucking great.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:44:50 PM »

Quote from: biggyfred

PFCs are E-3s.

Ah, that's right. I always have this stupid impulse to think PFC's are above corporals, but it's the other way around, isn't it?

I remember that we were supposed to know the various ranks in other branches of the service back in basic training, but I never really did learn anything outisde of the Navy ones that I saw every day.

And enlisted insignia across the branches was too hard to keep track of and identify.

Oh well. At least the insignia for officers is pretty much the same for all of them.

O-5 is still a silver oak leaf whether it's on a Navy Commander or an Army Major, and two silver bars is still an O-3 whether it's a Navy Lieutenant or an Army Captain.

All I used to really care about was whether or not I had to salute it.

Rico · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2004, 06:01:11 PM »

*sigh*

I hear you Demo. I have to know them all though since I deal with all the different branches all the time. Plus, because of all the work I've been having to do with the ROK Army lately, I've got to know their ranks. Most GIs over here can't even tell the difference between ROK NCOs and officers.

JohnnyFive · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2004, 07:12:40 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge

Don't they need to keep people like that around because they can use them as human shields later?

I was thinking the same thing!!!

The only reason the army is more lax about this whole thing is just for that reason. They'll take the stupidest dumbasses (no offense to the rest of ya), just so they can throw them out into the field later. Which makes sense....

Isn't there some test you have to take to get into the army? And isn't the passing score somewhere around retarded?

biggyfred · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2004, 07:34:16 PM »

Corporals and Specialists are E-4s in the Army, depending on whether or not the soldier is in charge of troops. It's mostly an infantry thing. I was a specialist.

O-5 is the silver leaf cluster in the Army, but it's a Light Colonel. The gold is the Major.

I think.. been awhile now.

Law · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2004, 09:53:31 PM »

Yup, silver oak is Lt. Col for Army, Marines and Air Force.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2004, 09:50:22 AM »

Quote from: biggyfred

Corporals and Specialists are E-4s in the Army, depending on whether or not the soldier is in charge of troops. It's mostly an infantry thing. I was a specialist.

O-5 is the silver leaf cluster in the Army, but it's a Light Colonel. The gold is the Major.

I think.. been awhile now.

D'oh! That's right.

I should have known that. Majors are O-4's, not O-5's. Lt. Colonels are the Army equivalent of Navy Commanders... usually 2nd in command under the CO.

Rico · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2004, 10:59:35 AM »

Maybe it's different in other units, but in all of mine, the LTC is CO of the Battalion, and full-bird COL is CO of the Brigade. In my current unit, both BN and BDE XOs are Majors. Army Captains are Commanding Officers in Companies with normally a 1st LT as the Executive Officer, though I have seen a couple of Butter Bars (2LT) get the job.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2004, 11:26:23 AM »

Well usually, where ships are concerned, you normally find O-6's in the Navy (Captains) being the ones in charge. Typically in the Executive Officer (XO) position you find a Navy Commander (O-5).

Under there you have departments, divisions, and duty sectors.

For instance, while I was stationed on the Enterprise (CVN-65) in Norfolk, our CO was Captain Richard "Tricky Dick" Naughton, who was an O-6.

His XO was a Commander, and was second in command of the entire ship.

Under him was the department I belonged to, Reactor Department, which was headed by (strangely enough) another O-6, but he was technically subordinate to the CO and XO of the ship, even though he outranked the Executive Officer.

Beneath him, I worked in M-Div (Mechanical Division), and since there were four different plants on the Enterprise, I was a part of a duty section assigned to one particular plant. M-Div was headed by a Lt. Commander (O-4), but I know that other divisions on the Enterprise were occasionally headed by Lieutenants (O-3) and in one case a full Commander (O-5), so there is a range.

My duty section was headed by a 1st Class Petty Officer (E-6), who answered to the Division Officer and the Division Chief (who in our case was an E-7). As for myself, I was an E-5, and at one point I was in charge of a sub-section of our duty section that was responsible for things like shielding surveys and "RC" (radiological controls). We dealt with things like spills (if they happened), contamination, initial entry team for reactor compartment casualties, shutdown inspections, that kind of thing. I never had more than 10 people under me at any given time, however. I used to piss and moan about even 10.

I always assumed the other branches were organized in at least a somewhat similar fashion...

biggyfred · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2004, 06:07:45 AM »

I think that about works out.

O-6's in the Army are full bird Colonels. They're either staff officers for general officers or brigade commanders most of the time. A brigade usually has about 5 (rico?) battalions (headed by light colonels), which typically have 5 companies each (headed by a captain, O-3). Each company usually has around 125-150 soldiers. There is an XO for each command position, usually one rank lower than the commander, and they also outrank those at levels below them, even if those below them wear a higher rank.

Within companies are platoons with a louie in charge, and the platoon sergeant typically an E-7. Two to four sections in each platoon, with at least 2 E-6s, depending on the type of unit. Signal, for example, is allocated seven E-6 slots per platoon because of the complexity of equipment. We never had enough high ranking people to fill the slots though. Not too many units in the Army did. If your job had any kind of civilian equivalent, they were pretty much outta there. Guys with my job left in droves to be switch techs for baby bells, as did I.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2004, 09:23:43 AM »

Quote from: biggyfred

We never had enough high ranking people to fill the slots though. Not too many units in the Army did. If your job had any kind of civilian equivalent, they were pretty much outta there. Guys with my job left in droves to be switch techs for baby bells, as did I.

Likewise, on the Enterprise, there was always a shortage of people in Reactor Department.

There were never enough people to fill a decent schedule in the plants, so we always used to end up standing "five and dimes" (five hours on watch, ten hours off... doesn't sound bad, right? Well, during that ten hours, you were also supposed to get things like maintenance done, planning, documentation, eating, sleeping... never enough time) to make up for it.

The Enterprise when I was attached to it, anyway, had about 300 "Nukes" (people in my line of work) on board.

However, according to the specs I saw, she was supposed to have 475.

We were always short-handed.

In spite of things like re-enlistment bonuses ($15,000-$25,000 for re-upping for two years... not too shabby), I really don't know very many Nukes who made a career out of it. The vast majority (like myself) got out as soon as they could so that they could go get real jobs out in the civilian sector. Not always nuclear related, but real jobs nonetheless. Being a Nuke in the US Navy qualifies one for a lot of different things. It was some pretty harsh, intensive training that covered a lot of subjects.

Either way, the Navy has a hard time keeping good people in uniform. Most of them with any sense get the heck out once they realize what a crappy job it is, and once they realize how much money they can make on the outside with a lot less work.

Personally, I didn't actually mind the job that much. I even liked it sometimes.

I had two primary reasons for going into the Navy:

1) To be a Nuke
2) To be on a submarine

I took care of the first one right off the bat... it was part of my contract.

After I got out of school, passed my boards, et cetera, my first duty station was a boomer out of Charleston, SC.

Second part accomplished!

Then Mister Clinton dismantled 75% of our submarine fleet. I was sent to the Enterprise, as were most of the other Nukes I served with on that sub.

Want to destroy someone's morale? Train them specifically for a job, then send them to do a completely different one that they'll require about two more years of training for, particularly if it's a job they had no interest in to begin with.

Going from being a Nuke on a sub to being a Nuke on a carrier is like expecting a high-performance racing motorcycle team mechanic to instantaneously start work on old farm tractor engines for a living and like it.

The punchline is, in the Navy, once you've been assigned to a surface command, you will never be assigned to a sub command again. So they basically removed 50% of my motivation to be there.

I don't know a single person that stayed in after getting sent to the Enterprise. It was pretty bad.

I do know this though... if I had never been sent to a surface command, I probably would have re-enlisted. I really liked the sub-surface side of things. It's a totally different Navy.

Rico · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2004, 10:54:08 AM »

The thing about the Army, or any branch in the US is this: Even if we had some for of doctorine, we would never be inclined to follow it. Part of what makes us great, I guess.

The US Army is built on the Rule of Four, theorectically.

4 Squads = 1 Platoon
4 Platoons = 1 Company
4 Company = 1 Battalion
ect.

However, in Intel expecially, the unit is designed around the mission, and in our case, often formed from the remains of other units, which where formed and disbanded according to wartime activities. My paticular Company came from the WWII European Theater, then was joined with the BN in the US for several years, the whole BN disbanded for a few, and then sent to Korea after the Korean Conflict to join a BDE that had come from somewhere else in the late 40's.

In our case, it's like this:

5 squads = PLT (My PLT only, others are totally different)
6-7 PLTs = CO (Samething, but I'm also part of a PLT that forms off and on)
4 CO = BN (other BNs are also different numbers of COs)
6 BN = BDE
and the BDE is totally seperate from anything other than national command

Soviet Doctorine calls for the Rule of Three, samething except with Artillery. Each Battery will have three lanchers or guns, and 3 BTYs per BN, but the BN typically functions as the smallest unit, rather than the PLTs, or even squads that the Infantry units use.

Also when you get to BN and ezpecially BDE level, you'll find several support elements of various sizes, ie Chemical PLT suboridinate to a BDE, and other stuff. A typical Soviet armor BDE, for instance, will have 3 Armor BNs, 1 Mechinized Infantry BN, a Self-Propelled Artillery BN, Air Deffence BN, Recon CO, Chem PLT, and Engineering, Medical, Transport, and Maintanence elements of all sizes.

I know that's a little off subject, but I like talking about it, so I got side-tracked.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2004, 11:18:22 AM »

I didn't know there was an actual "doctrine" that the Army attempted to follow (i.e., the "rule of 4")... in the real world it almost never works that way.

Navy doctrine is all ship-centric. Obviously. O-6's commanding each individual vessel (most of the time... O-5's in command of large vessels aren't unheard of, just not as common), Admirals of varying sorts commanding groups of ships... There aren't really set numbers involved, though they do try to keep carrier "strike groups" set up approximately the same way.

Usually you'll have a carrier accompanied by a couple of guided missile cruisers, a tender/supply ship, a couple of destroyers (usually one guided missile destroyer and one sub-hunter), sometimes a hospital ship, and typically a fast attack sub (or two).

But that's fast, loose, and flexible according to the needs of whatever mission is being performed.

Rico · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2004, 01:58:19 PM »

Army does the samething. The Rule of Four is mainly an infantry thing, if I remember right. It goes off of the 3 to 1 leadership idea. Each leader can have three subordinates to control in a combat situation.

The difference is really additude if you think about it. We feel that our leader must be one of us to do a good job, thus he is included with the three he is leading (ie fire-teams are 4 men: Team Leader, Fire Support, Grenadier, and Rifleman/Sniper). The Russians felt that the leader must be above his mean to lead, not one of them (ie 3 squads under a single platoon leader)

That's why our BNs have four companies. The HeadQuarters Company has the BN Commander, and then Companies A, B, and C with him. We can do that because we trust our troops enough to delegate responsibility and not force the commander to have a hand in every little thing. It's really just a difference in mindset. I bet we could analys the Navy and get some very similar results.

Frozen Shade · « **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2004, 08:26:43 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge

Don't they need to keep people like that around because they can use them as human shields later?

That sounds like a plan, send all the uselss lazy people in, then you move in and take cover behind the bodies. Brilliant

News:

Recent Forum Posts

Shout Box

Author Topic: Demosthenes Wanted Ranting (Read 5284 times)

Anonymous

Anonymous