Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Bogdaneqd]

• Where is Administration g... by Bogdaneqd
  [Today at 10:39:34 AM]
• ???????? ?????????? ?????... by Juliyge
  [Today at 08:58:37 AM]
• d101s ???????? ???????? by Victorumj
  [Yesterday at 11:30:10 PM]
• ???????? ?????????? ?????... by Victorcqt
  [Yesterday at 07:56:11 PM]
• ???????? ?????????? ???? by Victorgra
  [April 26, 2024, 11:29:30 PM]
• ? ??????? 2 by Juliyge
  [April 26, 2024, 10:16:52 PM]

Members

• Total Members: 4939
• Latest: BrianCus

Stats

• Total Posts: 129555
• Total Topics: 7152
• Online Today: 270
• Online Ever: 1013
• (January 12, 2023, 01:18:11 AM)

[Banshee]

Hey Demo, I was reading Popular Science today (some article about scramjet engines: you can read it here), and I realized just how much the bloody space program, and all the other exotic studies by NASA, actually cost the government. Now, for some reason I thought of you and your libertarian policies, and came up with a question: how, if government was cut back to the levels you would prefer, would such scientific research continue?

I realized I have no clue, but that's not surprising-- I'm not much of a libertarian myself, even though I do appreciate "keeping" as much of my money as possible.

[Anonymous]

I'm guessing that some people will just have to start working for even lessp/B] money than they are working for now. If not the people doing the research, then the people making the supplies for the research.

[Paco DeGaillo]

My 2 cents...

1st penney:
I would not argue with anyone who wanted to thrash the upper, and much of the middle, management of NASA, JPL, Lawrence Livermore, etc. and complacent faculty in the numerous Universities engaged in serious publicly-funded Scientific Research - they are pure politicians and don't really care, much less understand, the ramifications of the "mission" of their agency / institution. Classic Civil-Service Whores and Tenured Trepanned Thought Police.

2nd penney:
I would point out, however, that these entities (NASA, Stanford, et al) provide much of the "seed corn" of America's technology base - and their success (in spite of Management) absolutely sets the US apart. It is, if you care about having a tomorrow, vital in the extreme that efforts in basic research as well as the exploitation of areas where serious inroads are apparent - continues unabated... Lest we find ourselves with nothing to plant some future Spring... Bleak, indeed, would be our future then.

-30-

[Binoboy]

At least there isn't a Star Wars-style space militarization plan in the works that would make the US the first to break the treaty barring that practice after being the country originally cramming that treaty down the rest of the world's throat.....

Oh wait... crap....

[biggyfred]

I believe a purely Libertarian opinion on this (and just about every other government program) would look something like:

This should not be funded by the government. People should be able to check a box on their taxes to pay for it, and the budget would be put together once they get their allowance from the taxpayers. Anything requiring them to pay is taking their freedom away, hence unacceptable.

Sumbitches better get to Mars before I die. I was promised Mars.

[Demosthenes]

I believe a purely Libertarian opinion on this (and just about every other government program) would look something like:

This should not be funded by the government. People should be able to check a box on their taxes to pay for it, and the budget would be put together once they get their allowance from the taxpayers. Anything requiring them to pay is taking their freedom away, hence unacceptable.

Works for me.

I think a lot of people don't realize the kinds of financial incentives that exist for privitizing space travel/study.  There is a lot of money to be made there, and hence, it doesn't need the government to monopolize it....

[Banshee]

But do you REALLY want to put dangerous experiments into the hands of some irresponsible corporation? Say what you will about the government's efficiency, but one thing G-men are is prudent. Ya know, the whole "breach of national security" thing.

And if there is so much money to be made, why aren't more entrepreneurs jumping in the pool, so to speak? Nothing I know of is stopping them-- though I could be forgettting something.

[Demosthenes]

But do you REALLY want to put dangerous experiments into the hands of some irresponsible corporation? Say what you will about the government's efficiency, but one thing G-men are is prudent. Ya know, the whole "breach of national security" thing.

Feh.  You're talking about the government here, and you call corporations "irresponsible"?  Lol.

If you think there is a lack of accountability, responsibility, and honesty in corporate America, you've obviously never had to deal with any government types.

Keep in mind these "widespread corporate scandals" the media is hammering on this past year or two are only a handful of corporations... the vast majority of companies in the United States are on the up-and-up.

However, we only have one real force of government in this country, and we all KNOW how "on the up-and-up" it is.

Besides that, opening up space for private enterprise means it won't be relying solely on force to provide funding, which is my primary objection to the government's space program to begin with.  Everything is paid for by money that is confiscated rather than invested; I don't care what "good" has come of it.  What that is doing is sending the message that "the ends justify the means", which in any civilized society I would think would be reprehensible at best.

[Banshee]

Heh, the best way to deal with a recalcitrant government official is generally a bribe, especially if the prick is male and low on the food chain, so to speak. That should tell you a lot right there.

But corporations are more interested in profit rather than advancement, and while government management may not be very accountable, government researchers are generally well-bred, white collar folks who like to write papers on what they've discovered that enhances mankind. Which would you prefer: an unscrupulous profiteer who focuses on meeting deadlines or a nerdy intellectual professor? Given a choice, I'd prefer the latter, wouldn't you?

I know it's a bit biased (a personal bias, not a media-influenced one) but you have to admit that corporate organizations, by definition, must focus on profit, and, as anyone who's ever worked for a corporation knows, deadlines and bottom lines rule your lives. In my opinion, that mentality combined with high-science is an explosive brew. You don't fuck around with quantum science...

However, I don't know how to reconcile your political ideas (which I think are excellent and much better than our current system) with my concern for scientific responsibility. Maybe a government-administered non-profit organization? I doubt it would accomplish much, and may not even be feasible, but it's the only thing I could think of.
[/rant]

[Demosthenes]

But corporations are more interested in profit rather than advancement, and while government management may not be very accountable, government researchers are generally well-bred, white collar folks who like to write papers on what they've discovered that enhances mankind. Which would you prefer: an unscrupulous profiteer who focuses on meeting deadlines or a nerdy intellectual professor? [/i]

You mean "a nerdy intellectual professor who works for the government".  That one's easy.  I'll pick the unscrupulous profiteer every time.  Why?  Because unscrupulous or not, he has incentive to produce:  money.

The nerdy government employee has no such incentive, wastes 75 cents out of every dollar of money budgeted to him via administrative costs, and is most likely guaranteed a job regardless of whether he produces or not.

The unscrupulous profiteer will not keep clients/customers if he does not eventually deliver, whereas the government type (because they force everyone else to use their way of doing things) has virtually guaranteed usage.

That choice isn't hard at all.

I know it's a bit biased (a personal bias, not a media-influenced one) but you have to admit that corporate organizations, by definition, must focus on profit, and, as anyone who's ever worked for a corporation knows, deadlines and bottom lines rule your lives.

Which is why corporations are more efficient and more flexible and adaptable than their government equivalents in nearly every single situation, hands down.

I can easily name a dozen companies that I have willingly placed lots of trust in and have never been screwed by.  I can't name a single government agency that I have done the same with, however.....

In my opinion, that mentality combined with high-science is an explosive brew. You don't fuck around with quantum science...[/i]

All the more reason to keep it out of the hands of incompetent, bureaucratic government types...  Believe me.  I worked in a nuclear capacity for the US government.

[Demosthenes]

Here, read this, it's pretty well-written, and it sums up what I have been trying to say.

[Banshee]

For some reason-- that I can't put my finger on-- this article smacks of propaganda. Yet, I can't quite pin down the reason why. Whenever I get the creepy-crawlies like that, it usually means that the writer has an ulterior motive. Call it intuition; the result of reading many, many pieces of writing that all have a similar tone. That's the scent on this one too, even though I can't tell you why.

Despite that, it does make very good points, especially about gun control, which I've never agreed with. The vehement (and, I think, overblown) opposition to seizure laws seems to be founded in good faith, but it has the rabid tone of someone bound to stop at all costs this practice that they see as evil.

Granted, seizure laws are a clear violation of due process in some cases, but not in all, not by a long stretch. Yet this person seems to think so.

Well written article, but somewhat disturbing in its presentation and tone.