Topic: Operation Fix Evonus (Read 5839 times)

Rico · « **on:** February 01, 2007, 09:28:51 PM »

You know Evonus, no one can debate anything very well if they can't debate either side. You say you have a valid point, but no one wants to accept your arguement. Why don't we do this:

You state your stance on the whatever topic you want(and one folks have slammed you for in the past) and give a basic outline of your arguement for your position. We'll tear it apart and show you how to build it right. I can't think of much you've tried to take a stand on that I couldn't find an arguement for. I'm also pretty sure some of the other intelligent folks around here are more than capable of lending a hand. Our objective isn't to convince anyone, just construct a strong arguement. Worse case, you get a chance to see how everyone thinks an arguement should be staged. My guess is that you might learn something out of it, and if we're lucky, you won't be the only one.

Evonus · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:49:01 PM »

Quote from: Rico on February 01, 2007, 09:28:51 PM

You know Evonus, no one can debate anything very well if they can't debate either side. You say you have a valid point, but no one wants to accept your arguement. Why don't we do this:

You state your stance on the whatever topic you want(and one folks have slammed you for in the past) and give a basic outline of your arguement for your position. We'll tear it apart and show you how to build it right. I can't think of much you've tried to take a stand on that I couldn't find an arguement for. I'm also pretty sure some of the other intelligent folks around here are more than capable of lending a hand. Our objective isn't to convince anyone, just construct a strong arguement. Worse case, you get a chance to see how everyone thinks an arguement should be staged. My guess is that you might learn something out of it, and if we're lucky, you won't be the only one.

How about we simplify it. If I'm in a topic, and you see something in one of my arguments you could support, provide the support. That'd make this much simpler. That way I won't have to argue against five people by myself, and try to answer to 10 different things.

Min · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2007, 10:17:51 PM »

That's a good stance to start with. I'm not much of a debater, but I'm sure that someone will come along soon and tear it apart and show you the right way to build that argument.

Rico · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2007, 10:58:47 PM »

Because that won't be the point of the topic in whatever thread you decide to post in. Don't expect folks to take a thread off-topic to show you holes in your arguement. This is your chance to do it and remain emotionally detached. Besides, the whole point to it is that you should be able to make a statement and support your stance at the drop of a hat. If you require some one to say something you disagree with first, then what you're doing isn't taking a position. You're simply being contrary and inflamitory.

I'm not going to wait for you to find some one to attack and then come in and try to support a position I don't agree with. Why do I care if you can't support your own argument in another thread? I'm offering to help you do that here. If you don't want to, fine. Don't start complaining when folks slam you for not being able to form an intelligent argument later.

Anyanka_was_framed · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2007, 11:05:48 PM »

Ehhh, you have to want help in order to change. Or something. Maybe Evonus just enjoys being contrary and stubborn.

12AX7 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2007, 11:27:49 PM »

How about we just let Evonus do Evonus's thing, and if it's that annoying; ignore it. There's no rule that we have to respond or reply. Or try to make him argue things someone else's way. This thead sucks. Instead of debating the points on an issue, it's now personal about him. I don't always agree with others' point of view or techniques; but it's not under my responsibility to raise forum members as if they were my own. If someone's a dumbass; everyone sees it. Hell, that's part of the fun.
Argue like hell with him; pick apart his every statement; nullify his every reply, but don't try to make him do/say something. The whole idea of this thread is, if you'll pardon my bluntness; really condescending.

Vespertine · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2007, 11:48:26 PM »

12, I do see your point, but I honestly don't think Rico is trying to be condescending. I see his point too. When you're hot and heavy in the middle of a debate and someone points out the inconsistencies in your argument(s), you don't necessarily take it that way. In that situation, a person might disregard that "advice" because they might think it a counter argument, rather than the help it was offered as.

Evonus, it's up to you. If you're game, I'm in, but I'm in under the rules Rico stated above. It's just too distracting to try and do it as part of a real discussion.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2007, 12:09:36 AM »

I think that the intention is all well and good, but you can't force change on someone who doesn't want it. I'm with 12 on this one, if you dont' like what he's got to say you can always ignore him.

12AX7 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:39:44 AM »

Quote from: Vespertine on February 01, 2007, 11:48:26 PM

12, I do see your point, but I honestly don't think Rico is trying to be condescending.

Yeh, I tried to keep from saying Rico is being anything; that's why I said the thread sucked, and the thread seems condescending. For all I know he has the best intentions; it just didn't come across that way dedicating an entire thread to "fixing" someone. I, just for a moment, imagined he was talking about/to me; instead of Evonus, and it wasn't a good feeling. Personally, I would be really "assed up" (

) if someone suggested to "fix" me so that they could argue with me and not get irritated.

Rico · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2007, 07:03:34 AM »

Yeah, you're right 12. I should have picked a better title for the thread. I didn't mean to imply that Evonus himself is broken, but rather the way he debates is. I'm really proposing nothing more than you'd get taking a debate class in school or college or something. The idea is to attack the structure of the arguement, and to show how you have to understand the argument from both sides to do much good.

Like Vespertine said, if we critique his form here, I think it's less personal than in another thread and, I think, better recieved. Either way, it's just an offer to help. I don't care whether he takes me up on it or not.

TheJudge · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2007, 07:40:42 AM »

The only problem I have with this thread is that it specificaly targets Evonus. I think one person wanted to make an offer to assist another particular individual with a specific issue, it should have been done via PM. I don't think the way this thread is presented is fair to Evonus. But what is done is done.

However, I still like the idea of this thread has merit. The question is simple: Who would like to get input on their "form" when it comes to a debate? This offer is open to anyone, and anyone who cares to make suggestions may do so. Ultimately, it doesn't mean that the person making the suggestion is either right or wrong, take it for what it is: a suggestion. Nothing more.

Also, for this to work, if an individual doesn't respond favorably to your suggestion, perhaps it would be best not to try and focre the issue or attempt to convince them otherwise because then this thread will end up turning into another debate and I forsee that it will quickly derail.

Evonus · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2007, 12:26:45 PM »

Whatever, I'll be a good sport, someone give me an issue, or something, because I'm not good out pulling something from thin air. Preferably something I haven't debated before.

Rico · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:01:28 PM »

Immigration

Evonus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2007, 02:01:11 PM »

Okay my views on immigration. I greatly support normal immigration, and in fact I think we make it too difficult for many foreigners to immigrate here. The number of professionals (largely scientists, doctors, engineers is what I'm referencing here) is heavily dependent on immigration. They make up anywhere between a 1/5th and 1/3 of professionals in this country (http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/03/pr03127.htm), and so without them, we would clearly be lacking in industrial productivity (too many sheep, not enough shepards) which would cause a decline in the GDP and an increase in populations. Companies wouldn't be able to expand because managers and engineers would be in shortage. As such I think that when immigrants come here they should be assisted as much as possible for two years, given that they apply for citizenship. I think they should have access to social security, health care, affordable living, and that their kids should have access to schools. I also believe there should be classes to help them learn the language, provided by the government, as well as a way to help them get a drivers, liscence if they live in a place without a focus on public transportation. After two years I believe they should be cut off and left to fend for themselves (except the education part). If they don't take advantages of the opportunities available to them within the time specified I don't have much sympathy.

On the flip side, I don't support illegal immigration at all. I'm not stupid enough to support building an electric fence on the border with Mexico, but at the same time, I think border security at and around the check points should be increased, I think we should crack down on businesses that hire illegals, and I think the treatment of these people should be much harsher than it is when they are found, in order to help get the message across that we don't want them here. Also, I don't believe they should have access to any benefits no matter how long they've been here. I understand that after a certain point it becomes detrimental to deport someone after they've been here 20 years, and I think after a certain point amnesty has to be granted; however, I think the U.S. should do its best to cut down on immigration before many of these people reach that point. I have nothing against illegal immigrants, I know they're hard working an all, but they don't pay taxes, but yet their kids go to school, and they still want to be taken care of when they become old, and basically that makes them leeches on the currently established system.

That's the gist of it, attack away.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2007, 02:06:57 PM »

I think that if you immigrate illegally and don't pay taxes you shouldn't be able to use public schools or other things that taxpayers pay for. What I think would be okay would be if the governments would make it so easy to immigrate that there's no real reason to do it illegally.

Rico · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2007, 03:38:13 PM »

That was a pretty good write-up. I think if you did most of them like that, you'd have less trouble. Can you argue the other side?

It's good to have statistics, but make sure they say what you want. That was a good stat from what looks like an unbiased source, but it's only for Science and Engineering fields. My immediate question is what about other fields? You also took this one stat and streched it to mean something it doesn't. You can't say that because immigrants make up 1/5-1/3 of the workforce because for one the study was of foreign-born workers and doesn't say how many were just here on visas and because the fields they looked at were only S&E related fields. A mistake like that undermines your integrity and the strength of your argument.

Also, I could argue that what is required is not more immigration, but better education and higher standards in education. More immigrant managers and professionals means it's harder for native citizens to get into those jobs.

As far as two-year assistance program, I think I'd toss that. That brings in a whole host of problems like funding, taxation, and oversight. Once you've established yourself as an expert in the field, or something like that, you shouldn't really give opinions. Certainly not give them without stats and figures with the explination of how it'll work. We also can't just leave them to fend for themselves after the time period because they'll be qualified for welfare and stuff. There's no way you could swing holding it back because it'd be declared inhumane.

Preventing illegal immigration is probably the rougher side of the argument. You can use things like drug trafficing and danger to those trying to cross to bulster your argument. Also, point out identity theft and all the problem that causes normal tax-paying and law-abiding citizens. You'll have a TON of people telling you we should be more relaxed on "undocumented workers," so you'll want to listen to those arguements and include you counter to your initial statement. You'll head off some arguments that way and it makes you sound better read and more intelligent.

Your point about deporting after 20 years is a good one, but what about the cost of caring for that person? That'll cost money many won't want to pay. On top of that, you're really kind of saying that it's okay to be illegal, just as long as you can get away with it for 20 years. You can't prevent illegals' kids from going to school because by then they've assumed an identity and you won't know. Plus, if you tried, you'd be slammed for racism. Whatever ethnic group you target, even all of them, and you'll have tons of folks on you before you can blink.

It's not my intention to attack anything. Just show you how to formulate an argument better. What you wrote above was pretty decent and pretty well thought-out. How long did you take researching it and formulating your approach? Once you start thinking like that all the time, you'll notice people all around you feeding you garbage as fact. That's when your writing shows it. Prime example is Judge calling me out on what I said to Agent T about not having a say in our politics. Because he reads debates on these boards all the time, and I'm sure plenty outside the forums, he noticed a glaring hole in what I said.

Evonus · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2007, 04:54:17 PM »

Quote from: Rico on February 02, 2007, 03:38:13 PM

That was a pretty good write-up. I think if you did most of them like that, you'd have less trouble. Can you argue the other side?

It's good to have statistics, but make sure they say what you want. That was a good stat from what looks like an unbiased source, but it's only for Science and Engineering fields.

I did state that in parenthesis when I said this though, so it's not like I claimed it to be something it wasn't. Plus, if I'm trying to prove a point, there are more immigrant workers in science and engineering fields, and so it'd be in my best interests to show the areas where they have the strongest impact to emphasize my point.

Quote

My immediate question is what about other fields? You also took this one stat and streched it to mean something it doesn't. You can't say that because immigrants make up 1/5-1/3 of the workforce because for one the study was of foreign-born workers and doesn't say how many were just here on visas and because the fields they looked at were only S&E related fields. A mistake like that undermines your integrity and the strength of your argument.

To be 100% honest I didn't even think about visas.

Quote

Also, I could argue that what is required is not more immigration, but better education and higher standards in education. More immigrant managers and professionals means it's harder for native citizens to get into those jobs.

At that point I would rebut with figures comparing American education systems to other education systems in terms of money allocation probably in order to hopefully make a point that we aren't very far behind.

Quote

As far as two-year assistance program, I think I'd toss that. That brings in a whole host of problems like funding, taxation, and oversight. Once you've established yourself as an expert in the field, or something like that, you shouldn't really give opinions. Certainly not give them without stats and figures with the explination of how it'll work.

Well I mean I'm not running for office, or drawing up a platform. I'd say I made a mistake putting a number of years with it, but besides that I have to say something about how they should be treated once they come here. Not to mention there are programs similar to this, some states probably offer more, others offer less.

Quote

We also can't just leave them to fend for themselves after the time period because they'll be qualified for welfare and stuff. There's no way you could swing holding it back because it'd be declared inhumane.

This is why I would never run for office, because I hate the bullshit politics that go along with it. I personally do not care to cater to leeches who will simply feed off my income and provide nothing, and my political views reflect that, and on a forum discussion I fail to see why it would be an issue to state that.

Quote

Preventing illegal immigration is probably the rougher side of the argument. You can use things like drug trafficing and danger to those trying to cross to bulster your argument. Also, point out identity theft and all the problem that causes normal tax-paying and law-abiding citizens. You'll have a TON of people telling you we should be more relaxed on "undocumented workers," so you'll want to listen to those arguements and include you counter to your initial statement. You'll head off some arguments that way and it makes you sound better read and more intelligent.

I will take this into account.

Quote

Your point about deporting after 20 years is a good one, but what about the cost of caring for that person? That'll cost money many won't want to pay. On top of that, you're really kind of saying that it's okay to be illegal, just as long as you can get away with it for 20 years.

I don't agree with praising people for doing the wrong thing, but it gets to the point where it just becomes a deportation for the principle of it, and that's the type of stuff I don't agree with. I don't believe laws are set in stone, and I believe there are exceptions to everything, which is why we have such a wonderful court system to rule on these different situations.

Quote

You can't prevent illegals' kids from going to school because by then they've assumed an identity and you won't know. Plus, if you tried, you'd be slammed for racism. Whatever ethnic group you target, even all of them, and you'll have tons of folks on you before you can blink.

Once more, another reason I would never run for office. I personally don't see it as racism, because chances are every citizen and legal immigrant of that race is enrolled in school.

Quote

It's not my intention to attack anything. Just show you how to formulate an argument better. What you wrote above was pretty decent and pretty well thought-out. How long did you take researching it and formulating your approach? Once you start thinking like that all the time, you'll notice people all around you feeding you garbage as fact. That's when your writing shows it. Prime example is Judge calling me out on what I said to Agent T about not having a say in our politics. Because he reads debates on these boards all the time, and I'm sure plenty outside the forums, he noticed a glaring hole in what I said.

Well thank you for the advice. I will take much of it into mind. A lot of it is still conditional, meaning it'll help me with future debates on this topic, but not necessarily on other topics.

Anyone else have anything to say on the subject, if Rico has nothing else to add?

Demosthenes · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:54:28 PM »

I actually agree, for the most part, with Evonus' position on immigration; in order to argue against him I'd have to play some pretty heavy-handed Devil's Advocate, and I'm not very good at that.

Judgie is pretty good at it though. Judge, pretend you're an American for a minute and take a solid, contrary NIMBY* position against which for Evonus to argue.

*NIMBY = Not In MY Back Yard!

Rico · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2007, 07:46:43 PM »

You're not kidding. Judge is so good at being devil's advocate sometimes that I'm not entirely sure what side he's on.

TheJudge · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2007, 10:10:16 AM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on February 02, 2007, 06:54:28 PM

Judge, pretend you're an American for a minute

I am so proud to be an american! God Bless America!

Hey look at me! I'm from Texas!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!

Hahahahaha! OK, that was almost insulting, sorry. I will put on my devil's advocate hat. I just don't have time to do it right now.

Rico · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2007, 03:57:52 PM »

rofl Dude, in that last picture you can see them all falling from the hive. That's hardly insulting. I would call it GENIUS!!

[/redneck]

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2007, 02:08:04 AM »

I thought that was hilarious. I had a link to the forum that was posted on somewhere...

Is it just me or are some of them on fire? Perhaps it's just the chain...

TheJudge · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2007, 08:37:46 AM »

Quote from: Evonus on February 02, 2007, 02:01:11 PM

Okay my views on immigration. I greatly support normal immigration, and in fact I think we make it too difficult for many foreigners to immigrate here. The number of professionals (largely scientists, doctors, engineers is what I'm referencing here) is heavily dependent on immigration. They make up anywhere between a 1/5th and 1/3 of professionals in this country (http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/03/pr03127.htm), and so without them, we would clearly be lacking in industrial productivity (too many sheep, not enough shepards) which would cause a decline in the GDP and an increase in populations. Companies wouldn't be able to expand because managers and engineers would be in shortage. As such I think that when immigrants come here they should be assisted as much as possible for two years, given that they apply for citizenship. I think they should have access to social security, health care, affordable living, and that their kids should have access to schools. I also believe there should be classes to help them learn the language, provided by the government, as well as a way to help them get a drivers, liscence if they live in a place without a focus on public transportation. After two years I believe they should be cut off and left to fend for themselves (except the education part). If they don't take advantages of the opportunities available to them within the time specified I don't have much sympathy.

On the flip side, I don't support illegal immigration at all. I'm not stupid enough to support building an electric fence on the border with Mexico, but at the same time, I think border security at and around the check points should be increased, I think we should crack down on businesses that hire illegals, and I think the treatment of these people should be much harsher than it is when they are found, in order to help get the message across that we don't want them here. Also, I don't believe they should have access to any benefits no matter how long they've been here. I understand that after a certain point it becomes detrimental to deport someone after they've been here 20 years, and I think after a certain point amnesty has to be granted; however, I think the U.S. should do its best to cut down on immigration before many of these people reach that point. I have nothing against illegal immigrants, I know they're hard working an all, but they don't pay taxes, but yet their kids go to school, and they still want to be taken care of when they become old, and basically that makes them leeches on the currently established system.

That's the gist of it, attack away.

Now, my turn!

I don't support immigration for many reasons which I'll point out. My friend Evonus brings up the point of professionals, and that is one of the primary reasons why I oppose imagination. "The number of professionals (largely scientists, doctors, engineers is what I'm referencing here) is heavily dependent on immigration". False. The challenge with professionals is the recognition of their training. If someone from Itikina Gwacamole shows up here with a diploma stating he's a psychiatrist, I wouldn't want him to get a job and be in a position where he can prescribe very dangerous medications when I know nothing about the Itikina Gwacamole University. The problem is benchmarks. How can we evaluate his capacities, knowledge and skills and how can we standardize it so it can be applicable to all "professionals"? Well, we can't. It would perhaps be possible to come up with some tests (and I do use and "s" after test) per profession. But now we're talking about thousands of tests. Who's going to come up with these and validate them, who's going to administer them? Also take into consideration that not only must there be multiple tests administered, but there must also be a test rotation for each profession. While this initiative would be a great way to protect Americans from harm, who's going to pay for it? Americans of course. And as a proud American from Texas, I ask you this: Why should *I* pay to validate the training of some dude from overseas when we have top grade universities and colleges in the states? We can train our own people, so why not invest that money into our education programs instead of trying to screen good patricians from dangerous ones when they are from other countries? If 1/3 of our professionals are immigrants as Evonus points out, then that's a clear sign that we need to do more education work with our young population. We're frikkin Americans and there's 300 million of us! There's no reason why we can train our own and be self-sufficient. Also, when I deal with a professional, I wanna talk American dammit! If I can't understand what the heck Dr Tisjcik Sadsdjo is talking about, how can I make informed decision about my treatment plan? And if I can't understand him, how can I be sure he understands me perfectly when I describe my symptoms? Not only is the knowledge and skills critical, but so is the communication. This could be the best Dr in the world in terms of skills, but if he don’t understand my symptoms, then how can he treat me? (don’t understand – that’s my Texas accent! Hehe!). The language barrier plays a huge role in this as well.

Immigrants come to America and take out jobs. That's right, I said it! When looking at the blue collar workers, this is particularly true. Immigrants come here with nothing but hope, and quickly find desperation. They work for nothing. They get exploited by cheap American corporations and they get into a poverty cycle which they cannot break free of on their own. So what does that mean? It means American tax payers have to contribute to social programs so that we can get immigrants off the street and back on the right track. But why spend the money helping strangers when some of our own countrymen desperately need our help as well? I'm all for social programs and for helping out those in needs, but obviously we are not doing enough as a country to be able to reach everyone. We are therefore forced to be selective and if I'm going to make a choice about who I help out, I'll pick an American before I pick someone else. And what happens when the immigrant becomes desperate and goes into survival mode? Crimes. Crimes I tell you! They'll steal, they turn to drugs, then they'll steal to support their drug problems, and the severity of the crimes may grow over time. They’ll become prostitutes and contribute to other problems our society has. Maybe an American will be murdered as a direct result. I don't want that!

I still believe in the American dream, and immigrants can come over if they want as long as they don't expect me and my fellow tax payers to accomplish their dreams. It is indeed a land of opportunities. If an immigrant can come here and be successful on his own, them more power to him. If he can create employment along the way, then everybody wins, but if I have to wipe his ass constantly, I'd rather boot him from the country and wipe the ass of my neighbor instead.

Scheherazade · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2007, 07:49:58 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on February 01, 2007, 11:27:49 PM

How about we just let Evonus do Evonus's thing, and if it's that annoying; ignore it. There's no rule that we have to respond or reply. Or try to make him argue things someone else's way. This thead sucks. Instead of debating the points on an issue, it's now personal about him. I don't always agree with others' point of view or techniques; but it's not under my responsibility to raise forum members as if they were my own. If someone's a dumbass; everyone sees it. Hell, that's part of the fun.
Argue like hell with him; pick apart his every statement; nullify his every reply, but don't try to make him do/say something. The whole idea of this thread is, if you'll pardon my bluntness; really condescending.

Concur. And the only way he'll learn is through first hand experience.

Damn. I saw the topic title and got all excited...I thought you meant "fixing" of the reproductive variety.

Evonus · « **Reply #24 on:** February 18, 2007, 03:44:39 PM »

Quote from: ihatecliches on February 18, 2007, 07:49:58 AM

Concur. And the only way he'll learn is through first hand experience.

Damn. I saw the topic title and got all excited...I thought you meant "fixing" of the reproductive variety.

Don't worry, I don't ever plan to reproduce.

Judge, nice post, when I stop being lazy I will definitely respond.

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Author Topic: Operation Fix Evonus (Read 5839 times)

12AX7

12AX7