Topic: God's Will??? (Read 34032 times)

Vespertine · « **on:** June 27, 2007, 06:41:19 PM »

For lack of a better place to put this thread, I'm putting it in the politics section.

I'm finding that there's something in the news that I'm having very mixed feelings about. There's a couple in Minnesota who recently gave birth to sextuplets. She gave birth at approx. 22 weeks, this a little more than half of the human gestational period. Since birth, the babies have died, one-by-one. As of this moment, four of them are dead and the remaining two are in critical condition. Here's the high-level sequence of events (and then I'll tell you my mixed feelings).

1. Couple tries to have a baby only to find that they are infertile, or can't maintain the pregnancy (I don't remember which).
2. Couple decided to take fertility drugs.
3. Couple gets pregnant with sextuplets.
4. Doctors strongly advise couple to selectively reduce to two fetuses.
4a. Doctors clearly explain the likelihood that woman will not be able to carry sextuplets long enough to birth healthy babies. Doctors clearly explain the math that reducing to two greatly increases the odds of a successful pregnancy for the ones that remain.
5. Couple decline to selectively reduce, claiming that it's God's will that they have six babies all at once.
6. Woman gives birth at 22 weeks. The largest baby is a little over 1 pound, the smallest is around 11 ounces. The babies start dying. No one really knows whether the remaining two babies are going to make it.

I have a two-part conflict. Here it is.
A. First, let me make it clear that I feel horrible for these people. I can't imagine the agony they must be in. However, there is a part of me that thinks they brought it on themselves. They knew that attempting to carry all six fetuses carried a HUGE risk, but they declared God's will and plowed ahead. So, while I feel bad for them, I also feel like they only really have themselves to blame.
B. My second beef is with the God's will argument. Bear in mind, I say this as someone who doesn't believe in God, so maybe there's a mindset here that I fundamentally don't understand. If you're going to claim God's will: when you were found to be infertile, why wasn't that a message from God telling you to adopt? If you're going to claim God's will: when you turned to science, wasn't that an attempt to controvert God's will? Isn't it hypocritical to claim God's will when it intersects with your own will, and to circumvent it when it doesn't match up with what you want?

pbsaurus · « **Reply #1 on:** June 27, 2007, 06:46:51 PM »

B. Is exactly what I was thinking reading this. If you're going to intervene technologically then the God's Will thing is bunk, they've already abandoned it. Those who "follow" these "belief" systems only follow it when it's convenient for them.

Having gone through infertility and finally having technology work, we were fully ready to selectively reduce if it came to that. I feel sorry for them and their plight, but I also can't help but feel they are extremely stupid.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2007, 08:21:16 PM »

Case B actually was discussed, at least in a general way, in a class of mine called "Plato". (No prizes for what the subject of the class was...)

In the Euthyphro, Socrates is trying to divine (pardon the pun) a definition of piety, and one of the topics raised was how you can know that the gods approve of some action, or more importantly how you can selectively justify one action over another. Perhaps it's your own "moral compass" giving you the answer instead.

For instance, in the Bible there are plenty of places where we think "Nah, 'he' must not think this is morally good", for instance where it clearly states that if anyone swears at their mother and father, they should be put to death. (Leviticus 20:9) One might ask how you define swearing, but more importantly we would obviously think this is HORRIBLY barbarian, and completely immoral, but there are plenty of people that ignore this and instead use the bible when it suits them for moral justification.

If you say it's the word of God, IT'S THE WORD OF GOD. PERIOD. ALL OR NOTHING.

hackess · « **Reply #3 on:** June 27, 2007, 08:48:08 PM »

Right there with you on B.

12AX7 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 27, 2007, 09:35:19 PM »

Yep. Staring at your B.

That basically demonstrates why I dont have any use for any sort of 'religion'; although I do believe in God. Not some 'man in the sky' God, or flowing robes and all that other bible crap. Something; something bigger than me. I dunno what exactly.
But religion is TOTALLY man-made for the express purpose of controlling other people/land/wealth. Bible, my ass. Humans cant send a simple sentence around the room and have it come out the same in five minutes; what idiot thinks this book is about anything other than what was important to the person translating at the time, over the course of 2000 years?
I dont really feel bad for these people, sorry. If they want to claim "God's Will", I propose it was God's will they shouldn't have any children. They decided to reject that, determine their own course of action and claim it divinely inspired. Now they reap the "punishment" for refusing their "God's will". How bout that.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #5 on:** June 27, 2007, 10:22:03 PM »

This reminds me of that rapper whose plane was hit by lightning and he later said it was God's will that he survived (presumeably the same guy who hit his plane with lightning). If I was God in this case, my rationale for killing the babies would be teach those people a lesson about my Will (namely, that as a God who apparently wills everything to happen, that I have the mentality of a spoiled five year old with a magnifying glass by the anthill).

12AX7 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 27, 2007, 10:33:00 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on June 27, 2007, 10:22:03 PM

If I was God in this case, my rationale for killing the babies would be teach those people a lesson

But as God, you already know they won't "get it". Don't you regret makin em that stupid?

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #7 on:** June 27, 2007, 11:07:11 PM »

Hell no, I do all sorts of unfathomable things (personally I suspect I like to cause suffering just for the hell of it. HAH, hell of it!).

Vespertine · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2007, 11:35:49 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus on June 27, 2007, 06:46:51 PM

B. Is exactly what I was thinking reading this. If you're going to intervene technologically then the God's Will thing is bunk, they've already abandoned it. Those who "follow" these "belief" systems only follow it when it's convenient for them.

Having gone through infertility and finally having technology work, we were fully ready to selectively reduce if it came to that. I feel sorry for them and their plight, but I also can't help but feel they are extremely stupid.

I was wondering what your response would be. In fact, I was really hesitant to make this post because I was very worried about upsetting you. I'm glad you're not upset with me.

xolik · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2007, 12:13:05 AM »

Quote from: Vespertine on June 27, 2007, 06:41:19 PM

B.If you're going to claim God's will: when you were found to be infertile, why wasn't that a message from God telling you to adopt? If you're going to claim God's will: when you turned to science, wasn't that an attempt to controvert God's will? Isn't it hypocritical to claim God's will when it intersects with your own will, and to circumvent it when it doesn't match up with what you want?

To me, it would be a clear message telling me that I wasn't meant to breed. Adopt, sure, if I wanted kids that badly, I guess. A lot of people like to trot out the "God's will" line when, as you said, things are going their way nicely. However, some people are pretty damn stubborn and decide to try to do whatever the hell they want even though it would normally be impossible for them to do it. Then shit like this happens.

God doesn't want these people to have kids naturally for some reason. Their response is basically a "Fuck You, we'll do what we want and we want our crotch-droppings!" They use unnatural methods to get pregnant and lose all the kids as a result. God says "See? I thought I made it clear with the whole 'infertility thing' that I didn't want you birthing children, but oooooooooh no, you had the pull the 'science > Me' card and look what it got you." /troll Hopefully they won't try this cute stunt again. To quote a wise man, "Your poison womb is making heaven too fucking crowded."

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2007, 01:34:51 AM »

+1 for 'crotch droppings'.

12AX7 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 28, 2007, 03:20:33 AM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on June 28, 2007, 01:34:51 AM

+1 for 'crotch droppings'.

Beat me to it!!

Rico · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2007, 05:24:47 AM »

First, you have to understand that to a Christian it's not a fetus. It's a child and to abort would be to commit murder. To use science to increase the chances of having a child is quite abit more acceptable than using science to kill one. I guess it'd be sort of like having six people trapped in a cave-in. Experts are pretty sure there's enough air for two of them, but the chances of all six making it are not good. You get to choose which four to kill. Could you do it? At that point, a Christian would refuse to kill any of them, and pray that God's will be that they all live.

I don't think faith in God precludes faith in science, nor do I believe that the belief that abortion is wrong requires a religious reason. Having delivered plenty of calves and colts, and some through C-section, my belief that a child is alive before birth really doesn't have much to do with being a Christian. I can't think of anything in the Bible that specifies when life begins off-hand in any case. But as I believe life begins at conception and I believe the destruction of human life for convenience is wrong, I'm against abortion.

Not sure if that helps any, but I don't think it's really all that big a mystery why they'd think fertility drugs are okay and abortions would be wrong. This idea that if you're a Christian you can't believe in science and medicine is a little bit insulting.

Paladin · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2007, 06:09:11 AM »

I never ever understood the "god's will" argument. To me, that's just people that refuse to make an uncomfortable choice.
I never heard someone with bad breaks on a car say: "it's god's will, if he wants me to die in a car accident so be it." No matter how religious people are, they go to a mechanic and listen to them. Why they wouldn't listen to a doctor is beyond me.

And this couple should have known that fertility drugs have usualy this effect, and they should've been prepared for this choice. If they knew they couldn't make it, they should've adopted. Or have a surrogate mother or any other option.

Quote

This idea that if you're a Christian you can't believe in science and medicine is a little bit insulting.

I'm sorry, but i think that's the case. To be religious you must either have a frame of mind in witch you can believe without thinking about it, or you can selectively ignore some facts and ask some questions but not ask others, or not expect responses for some questions.
Neither of those make a scientist, at least not a good one.

12AX7 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2007, 06:27:35 AM »

Quote from: Paladin on June 28, 2007, 06:09:11 AM

I'm sorry, but i think that's the case. To be religious you must either have a frame of mind in witch you can believe without thinking about it, or you can selectively ignore some facts and ask some questions but not ask others, or not expect responses for some questions.
Neither of those make a scientist, at least not a good one.

+1

Besides, who said anything about "Christian"? I think all that was mentioned was the "God's will" clause. Even
Muslims holler that. We were talking (I'm fairly certain) about religion.

...and there's yet another consultation on that bible.
What if it DID say life begins at conception? We would follow that? The same as it's ok to have slaves? Or it's ok to stone someone to death? PLEASE tell me how you can refer to this bible for things that you "feel" are ok; yet completely ignore these other tidbits that are actually IN there. I have to know how you do that.

d_money · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2007, 06:41:29 AM »

So you're a god fearing couple and you can't have kids. Instead of saying it's gods will that you can't have kids and leave it at that, you use fertility drugs and get pregnant anyways. Then you tell yourself that it was gods will that you use fertility drugs and get pregnant. Then you get greedy. After not being able to have one kid for a while, the thought of maybe having 6 over most likely having 2 sounds a lot better. So you go for that opt and say its gods will.

I think a lot of people do anything they want and blame anything bad/good on gods will. being a non-believer i think its dumb that people can't be reasponsible for their own actions and make reasonable decisions without letting religion interfere.

Nosferatu · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2007, 06:49:57 AM »

Hmm, when I clicked this topic I thought it said "God's Wii??", wasted quite some time trying to work out what this had to do with Nintendo =P

As for when life begins, it's pre-conception. The egg is alive, the sperm are alive, they are both for a time able to function idapendanty from thier host bodies and though both have no means beyond conception to sustain thier lives, they are alive by most definitions of the word. Still, I don't think simply being 'alive' should be the grounds for whether terminating that 'life' is murder or not - sentiance should. At the start of a pregnancy, the fetus is no different, it's just made up of multiple cells, not one.

For that reason, I'd say that terminating a fetus before the brain forms and starts to receive and coordinate electrical signals isn't murder.

Of course the problem with religion and abortion is that murder isn't about whether or not the person is alive and sentiant, it's the potential for life and the assignment or creation of a 'soul', this creates all kinds of grey areas between religion and science.

Personaly, I guess I'd fall into the pro-choice band, way I see it, it's up to the parents, but if I ever had to make the choice myself, I'm fairly adamant that I wouldn't give consent to terminate a pregnancy.

TheJudge · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2007, 08:15:49 AM »

How does one know about God's will? It's one thing to have faith and to beleive in God, it's another to pretend to know what God actually has planned for you. If a person choose to accept the interpretations of the bible, and of the 10 commandments, they get a general idea of what God expects from them in terms of behavior. But this is generic and applicable to everyone without discrimination. When you start using the God's will argument for a personal event, then you're being a crazzy chicken. I could do that for anything. In the example above, I could say it was God's will to allow the use of fertility drugs because God allowed mankind to discover and develop them. And then, it was God's will to make the women carry 6 babies. And then it was God's will to kill them all. You know, Cause God likes to be an ass sometimes.

I can beleive in God and I can beleive I know his will in terms of how humanity as a whole should behave. God's guidelines if you will. But to pretend I know God's will for individual circumstances is not only idiotic, but very dangerous. No one can have that knowledge unless God himself shows up at your door and tells you specifically what he wants you to do.

If that women truely beleive that God's will was for her to carry six babies, then she has no other choice than to beleive that it was also his well that they all die (most of them anyway. The others are on their way). She must wonder why God hates her so. These are all self imposed toughts and as a result, this women is likely going to lead a very fucked up life following this event. But I guess that's what God had planned for her.

Or... people can start including common sense in their thinking. Just because you beleive in God doesn't mean you can't make decisions. It doesn't mean that everything is already decided for you. That would make your life completely useless. If everything that happens to everyone is governed by the hand of God, then our existence is just a big chess board and we're all pawns. I refuse to live that way. If I was wrong about God, then I'll face him when I die and we'll work out our differences. Until then, I take charge of my life as much as possible. If you take the time to look at actual messurable facts, observations and precedents, it doesn't take a braniac to understand the risks and the extreemely probable outcome of this particular case. By refusing to make a dificult decision and hidding in the shadow of God's will, this couple are probably going to end up murdering 6 lives instead of 4. The survival rate for 22 weeks is extreemly low. And if a premature baby ends up surviving, they usually spend the rest of their lives living with many health problems ass a direct result of being born prematurely. I find that very irresponsible and it frustrates me.

If you beleive in God and you are faced with this situation with even just one baby, you have a two choices: send the soul back to God's side where it will be at peace, or allow it to live on earth where it will live a misserable life, where it will suffer and make those around him/her suffer. What would God really want? I don't know. But unlike a lot of Christians, I won't pretend I do.

TheJudge · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2007, 08:27:55 AM »

Quote from: Nosferatu on June 28, 2007, 06:49:57 AM

For that reason, I'd say that terminating a fetus before the brain forms and starts to receive and coordinate electrical signals isn't murder.

So once a brain coordinates signals, it's a life.

I murdered a fly today.

Now I know what you're going to say... It's just a fly dude, it doesn't compare with a human life. Well... Maybe in God's eye it does. Maybe God values flies more than humans. Maybe we are in fact self serving pretentious parasites. Maybe flies have formed a society and believe in God themselves because a fly version of God appeared before the flies 2000 years before and warned them of the humans and their fly swatters. See, that's why I like with God. You can use his name to come up with the most ridiculous explanations for stuff and no one can contradict you. They can't prove you wrong. It doesn't matter if you can't prove them right, the point is they can't prove you wrong.

To faith in general I say this: Instead of trying to "guess" why things happen, why you are here, how things "should" be, why don't you just enjoy life and make it enjoyable for others around you? Stop trying to convince everyone around you that you actually "know" about the mystic forces of the universe as if you'd been to the other side and back. Stop knocking at my door trying to enlist me in your faith, what ever it may be. And when I disagree with you, stop quoting me bible passage that have been written by man, interpretted by man, and rewritten by man. I really don't buy it because it isn't sound. Forget about all the none sense. If you feel like fucking and a lady friend feels like it too, then go fuck your brains out. No harm done. Pleasure for everyone! What's this crap about having to marry before doing the act? If your behavior does not harm others, then do what ever the fuck you want and enjoy life while you can.

xolik · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2007, 10:23:16 AM »

Quote from: Rico on June 28, 2007, 05:24:47 AM

This idea that if you're a Christian you can't believe in science and medicine is a little bit insulting.

There is that one sect that does exactly this, but the name of it escapes me for the moment. They don't take medicine of any kind and rely on prayer to every little medical irritation. But on the other hand, there are many reputiable hospitals that are run by religious groups. St. Joseph's in Burbank comes to mind. They're an excellent hospital. And there's always the Cedars option if you're Jewish. So yeah, it is ignorant to state that when it comes to religion and science\medicine they are mutually exclusive to each other.

Quote from: TheJudge on June 28, 2007, 08:15:49 AM

You know, Cause God likes to be an ass sometimes.

What do you mean 'sometimes?' Back in the OT days, that was pretty much how He rolled.

ivan · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2007, 10:46:01 AM »

Quote from: Rico on June 28, 2007, 05:24:47 AM

my belief that a child is alive before birth really doesn't have much to do with being a Christian.

Abortion has only become a religious issue fairly recently, say maybe a hundred or so years ago, and chiefly in the West. Ironically, it was advancements in biological sciences that have helped give rise to the idea of life at conception. Pre-industrial societies, while fervently pious, did not have a clear concept of what took place during pregnancy. A fetus wasn't a tangible entity until it began to kick ("quickening"). That's why traditional religious sources are vague on abortion. It wasn't seen as that big a deal. This, among other aspects, was explored in Justice Blackmun's Roe v. Wade opinion. It's a fascinating read, and probably not what most people expect.

Rico is right. To a religious person, it is not a sin to help bring life to the world, and so any such action could be seen as God's will. But it is, however, a sin to end one.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2007, 10:48:59 AM »

Quote from: Vespertine on June 27, 2007, 11:35:49 PM

I was wondering what your response would be. In fact, I was really hesitant to make this post because I was very worried about upsetting you. I'm glad you're not upset with me.

Now that I'm finally a dad, all that is pretty much behind me. It was a rough 7 years and yeah, I was pretty sensitive then. But now I have this weird clarity. Hard to describe, but in essence that part of me is long gone.

If you would have made this post several years ago, I think I would have probably responded the same way. We always knew of the possibility for multiples and would have reduced to two if that occurred. With IVF if a person's "belief" system says that they can't reduce the doctor will only transfer two embryos. I assume the people with the sextuplets were just using hyperstimulation and/or IUI and not IVF. But even when we were doing IUI we would have reduced if presented with multiples.

TheJudge · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2007, 10:51:02 AM »

Do you consider yourslef a religious person?

12AX7 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2007, 10:51:22 AM »

Quote from: ivan on June 28, 2007, 10:46:01 AM

Rico is right. To a religious person, it is not a sin to help bring life to the world, and so any such action could be seen as God's will. But it is, however, a sin to end one.

Does the phrase "God is great!" ring a bell? Don't you mean Christian? Then there's those pesky bible entries...

ivan · « **Reply #24 on:** June 28, 2007, 10:56:58 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on June 28, 2007, 10:51:22 AM

Does the phrase "God is great!" ring a bell? Don't you mean Christian? Then there's those pesky bible entries...

You don't have to go any further than the death penalty debate to see the most glaring contradiction in modern Christianity.

However, those contradictions are not part of these people's arguments. They might even be against the death penalty, and may regret the millions of murders committed in the name of the Christian and Muslim gods.

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Author Topic: God's Will??? (Read 34032 times)

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