Topic: God's Will??? (Read 34031 times)

TheJudge · « **Reply #75 on:** June 29, 2007, 06:37:55 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on June 28, 2007, 09:33:18 PM

OMG!! STFU St00b!!!

*frantically squeezes a stress ball*

That smiley just saved your life

/Mr furious

pbsaurus · « **Reply #76 on:** June 29, 2007, 11:27:55 AM »

Heh I read that as furryous

Rico · « **Reply #77 on:** June 29, 2007, 11:29:56 AM »

Yeah, truly sorry about that. Comes of reading two different posts back-to-back and not being entirely awake. In my defense, it's been a couple 20-hour days so my minds a little fuzzy. New personal rule, no infamitory posts without enough sleep and at least two cups of coffee under my belt. Actually, I think that might be the second time I've had to extract my foot from my mouth after little sleep. So to those I've offended, my deepest and humblest of appologies. That's one of the cooler parts of being Christian. We believe in forgiveness!

Anyway, I think what set me off in my weary stupor was this idea that Christians some how only value certain lives. Which though it's not presented in that way, comes out to the same thing. How can a Christian believe in the Death Penalty and not in abortion? Well how can some one believe in abortion and not in the Death Penalty. To a Christian killing an unborn child and a grown person are exactly the same. The one difference is that the adult has knowingly commited a crime and owes a debt to society. Of course I would never want to see some one put to death! There MUST be some enforcement of the law, though. There has to be some punishment that deters the crime. And punishment, by definition, must be cruel or in some way unusual to be effective as a deterrent. Christians believe in the law and in earthly consequenses for their actions. If you understand that a Christian views both as a life, I don't see how you could fail to understand how one is very obviously wrong, and the other a sometimes unfortunate responsiblity.

One thing I didn't realize until doing a little reading about it is how likely the couple mentioned in the first post were to have so many eggs fertilized at once. That's a science I don't know a lot about. Now realizing that they would have been warned that such a result might be very possible... Man, I don't know. I'm not sure I could allow myself to be put into a situation where there was a high chance I'd be forced to make that kind of decision, much less live with it. I think adoption would have been a better choice.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #78 on:** June 29, 2007, 11:45:29 AM »

Not only are they informed, they are counselled and they sign and initial documentation that they have been informed.

d_money · « **Reply #79 on:** June 29, 2007, 12:20:31 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus on June 29, 2007, 11:45:29 AM

Not only are they informed, they are counselled and they sign and initial documentation that they have been informed.

So basically they fucked themselves and the unborn children.

TheJudge · « **Reply #80 on:** June 29, 2007, 12:28:16 PM »

No. God did.

But that's the general idea.

d_money · « **Reply #81 on:** June 29, 2007, 12:37:02 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge on June 29, 2007, 12:28:16 PM

No. God did.

But that's the general idea.

I forgot, it was all a part of god's plan for them. He is probably just making them stronger.

Vespertine · « **Reply #82 on:** June 29, 2007, 12:46:58 PM »

I didn't feel like performing the work to quote multiple posts, so this serves as a soapbox/clarification (for me) from a bunch of other posts.

1. OK, I did some digging, and I'm clarifying my earlier question about the (biblical) fine for causing a woman to miscarry. Rico, you suggested that this could be a fine as a result of an accident, or working a woman too hard, etc. The passage is in Exodus (the same book where the 10 commandments are laid out), right before the "eye for an eye" section. If a man pushes a pregnant woman and she miscarries, but is not otherwise hurt, then the offender pays only a fine to the victim's husband. Now, in addition to the 10 commandments, Exodus also lays out the crimes and punishments that form the basis of a legal system. Causing (intentionally or otherwise) a woman to miscarry is treated essentially the same as myriad other "property crimes".

2. There's been a lot of discussion about the fact that the Bible contradicts itself (OT vs. NT). My observations suggest that there are massive contradictions within the OT itself. Did you know that there are two versions of the creation story in the OT? One of them presents man and woman as equal, and the other is the one we all know about? In Exodus, we get the 10 commandments. Thou shalt not kill. In the same book (as mentioned above), the basis of the legal system is laid out. Punishment for intentional killing is death. Punishment for kidnapping is death. Punishment for striking a parent is death. Punishment for insulting a parent is death. Punishment for bestiality is death. BUT, all of these death sentences are right along side the exhortation that THOU SHALT NOT KILL. Seems like a glaring contradiction to me.

3. Someone made mention of Jesus and his "clarification" on the laws in the OT. I believe the statement was something to the effect that "there were misinterpretations of the law that Jesus intended to 'clear up'". If you're a believer, than you believe that the OT is the word of God. There's no room for misinterpretation there. Either God laid out the crimes and punishments (inclusive of the 10 commandments), or he didn't.

4. As relates to number 3, I've never known a religious (of the Christan faith) person who believed that the OT was something of a historical record. The ones I've known believe that the OT is the word of God, and is a factual accounting of the beginning of time. Why else would so many people believe that the world is approximately 6,000 years old? These are the same people who love to throw out Leviticus whenever the topic of homosexuality comes up. Thus proving that their thought process includes this book being the factual, authoritative, word of God, not merely a perspective of ancient civilizations.

5. Finally (and also as relates to numbers 3 and 4), why do so many Christans claim to have the "ace in the hole" when it comes to God? This OT, which many Christians believe to be the word of God, very clearly designates the Jews as God's chosen people. God's one and only chosen people. How do they make the leap to "Jews are out and Christians are now God's chosen people"?

12AX7 · « **Reply #83 on:** June 29, 2007, 12:57:19 PM »

Quote from: Rico on June 29, 2007, 11:29:56 AM

Yeah, truly sorry about that. Comes of reading two different posts back-to-back and not being entirely awake. In my defense, it's been a couple 20-hour days so my minds a little fuzzy. New personal rule, no infamitory posts without enough sleep and at least two cups of coffee under my belt. Actually, I think that might be the second time I've had to extract my foot from my mouth after little sleep. So to those I've offended, my deepest and humblest of appologies. That's one of the cooler parts of being Christian. We believe in forgiveness!

I was quoted; but not offended. The only part I raised a brow at was the "you people disgust me"; but I just figured you were gettin mad. It happens.

ivan · « **Reply #84 on:** June 29, 2007, 01:15:04 PM »

Quote from: Vespertine on June 29, 2007, 12:46:58 PM

5. Finally (and also as relates to numbers 3 and 4), why do so many Christans claim to have the "ace in the hole" when it comes to God? This OT, which many Christians believe to be the word of God, very clearly designates the Jews as God's chosen people. God's one and only chosen people. How do they make the leap to "Jews are out and Christians are now God's chosen people"?

That's the point of the NT, and where Judaism and Christianity part ways.

The OT, and part of Judaic tradition states that a messiah will be sent by God to deliver his people. Along came Jesus and claimed to be that very messiah. The deliverance comes with some fine print, however: to be delivered to the kingdom of God, it is not enough to be a Jew. To be saved, one must follow the messiah. Believing that Jesus is the messiah prophesied in the OT, and that one must follow his teachings above all others, is the definition of a Christian. Most Jews were not convinced, however. Orthodox Jews believe the OT is the word of God, but that the messiah is still pending.

Among Christ's radical teachings was the idea that gentiles can be saved, and the saving grace is faith rather than practice. The idea that one can have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe, and worship him independently, was heady stuff, and a legitimate criticism of conservative Judaism. If there is a God, he must be God for everyone. That, and other contradictions were understood and dealt with by Christ; less so by the church that bears his name.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #85 on:** June 29, 2007, 02:39:15 PM »

Quote from: ivan on June 29, 2007, 01:15:04 PM

The OT, and part of Judaic tradition states that a messiah will be sent by God to deliver his people. Along came Jesus and claimed to be that very messiah. The deliverance comes with some fine print, however: to be delivered to the kingdom of God, it is not enough to be a Jew. To be saved, one must follow the messiah. Believing that Jesus is the messiah prophesied in the OT, and that one must follow his teachings above all others, is the definition of a Christian. Most Jews were not convinced, however. Orthodox Jews believe the OT is the word of God, but that the messiah is still pending.

Jews also follow the Mishnah, the Talmud, Midrash, and Torah, no? I'm guessing here that somewhere in there must be the stuff that prevents them from hopping on the Phred Phelps 'burn the queers' bandwagon. Why aren't Jews known for going radical and enforcing Old Testament laws on people then?

d_money · « **Reply #86 on:** June 29, 2007, 02:47:26 PM »

The are pacifists

xolik · « **Reply #87 on:** June 29, 2007, 03:01:13 PM »

I guess I'm just not hanging around too many Christians then. Hardly any of them that I know of are young earth Creationists, or take the OT word for word etc.

But then again, most of my friends are Buddhist anyways.

Vespertine · « **Reply #88 on:** June 29, 2007, 03:04:07 PM »

Quote from: d_money on June 29, 2007, 02:47:26 PM

They're too concerned with their money.

If you forgot the sarcasm flag, please edit and post it. Otherwise, FOAD!

ivan · « **Reply #89 on:** June 29, 2007, 03:10:50 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on June 29, 2007, 02:39:15 PM

Why aren't Jews known for going radical and enforcing Old Testament laws on people then?

Orthodox and conservative Jews are quite strict about all sorts of things, including things like homosexuality and a woman's place. You don't want them in charge of things. Haven't you been listening to your Dr. Laura?

RelandR · « **Reply #90 on:** June 29, 2007, 03:21:14 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on June 29, 2007, 02:39:15 PM

Jews also follow the Mishnah, the Talmud, Midrash, and Torah, no?...

Judaism 101

Basically names for the same thing, or parts of it and adendum works, etc.

For the most part, the combined works are essentially what Christians call the "Old Testament" ...

.. allthough I'd bet that the version history numberings would be much, much lower.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #91 on:** June 29, 2007, 03:55:08 PM »

I hadn't heard of this story until it was posted here. I'm pretty averse to the news nowadays because I don't care about Paris Hilton. So I don't really watch, listen to, or read major news sources anymore. So I google newsed the sextuplets and read a story.

I'm surprised to read that they're both 24. A little young for fertility treatment in my opinion. Fertility in women starts to decline in the 30s to where it's difficult at 35 and becomes more improbable each year after that. So anyway, if they're such believers in god's will, why didn't they just keep trying naturally for several more years? Almost all of the people we've encountered through Stanford Reproduction and Endocrinology Clinic have been in their 30s or 40s.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #92 on:** June 29, 2007, 04:14:06 PM »

Quote from: xolik on June 29, 2007, 03:01:13 PM

I guess I'm just not hanging around too many Christians then. Hardly any of them that I know of are young earth Creationists, or take the OT word for word etc.

But then again, most of my friends are Buddhist anyways.

This is a good point, but there's still a lot more militant Christians who make the news that Jews. There's always been a white-power conservative Christian underground, I'm just wondering why the Jews have never (to my limited knowledge) done a similar thing. I'd think that if they follow the OT they've got even more of a religious reason to think God likes them best than the Neo-Nazis who pull out obscure Bible passages to support their racism.

ivan · « **Reply #93 on:** June 29, 2007, 04:38:27 PM »

Agent_Tachyon, Jews are a minority in every country except Israel. Don't you remember what a big deal it was when Lieberman ran for the nomination? Simply put, conservative Jews don't have a bully pulpit in the US. If they did, they might make your garden variety right wing fundy look like Ed Kennedy.

Neo Nazis make the news because that's the kind of thing that makes the news. How often have the Amish made headlines recently? It doesn't mean their world view is palatable.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #94 on:** June 29, 2007, 04:49:13 PM »

I think the Amish have a fairly healthy worldview actually. Even if it's not, at last they don't bang on my door to try and convert me like SOME PEOPLE *cough*Mormons*cough*...

ivan · « **Reply #95 on:** June 29, 2007, 05:10:59 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on June 29, 2007, 04:49:13 PM

I think the Amish have a fairly healthy worldview actually.

You're kidding me!

Really?

d_money · « **Reply #96 on:** June 29, 2007, 05:27:07 PM »

Not only do some groups knock on your doors and try and spread their beliefs to you, but they target a lot of children walking down the street in neighborhoods too. I remember when i was growing up I'd always have people trying to witness to me and make me believe their crap and it would piss my parents off. I would feel the same way. I think its kind of rude to try and spread your lies to some little kid that of course will believe you, and do it knowing most likely their parents would kick your ass if they saw you doing it.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #97 on:** June 29, 2007, 05:43:58 PM »

Okay maybe that's a bit of an overstatement. If I really did think that the Amish worldview was a good one, I wouldn't be able to tell you about it. Still, there are some bits of it that strike me as being in advance of the mainstream. For example, rather than categorically condemning technology as being evil, they carefully examine each case individually.

Aside from the whole hierarchy thing, they've got a fairly cool lifestyle. I like the self-sufficiency they practice and think that a lot of the things they believe make good sense.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #98 on:** June 29, 2007, 05:54:24 PM »

And you gotta love the Amish pr0n.

d_money · « **Reply #99 on:** June 29, 2007, 06:11:23 PM »

Quote

"No, let's stay out a little longer" and with that remark, Elizabeth leaned in to Amos' embrace. The whiskers of Amos' cheek brushed against hers, and tickled her nose. The two gazed into each others' eyes and kissed. Amos, cupped his hands over her warm, supple breasts as Elizabeth removed his shirt. She then twirled her fingers around his chest hair.

It was there, that night, that Amos did Elizabeth doggy style in the buggy.

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Author Topic: God's Will??? (Read 34031 times)

12AX7