Topic: Coffins (Read 5677 times)

Anonymous · « **on:** April 23, 2004, 03:37:57 PM »

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http://www.gotthegeek.com/images/demo_avatar_kane_screen_sm.jpg"> Submitted by Demosthenes

Reading this just royally pissed me off, so I'm going to rant about it for a minute here.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=3&u=/nm/20040423/pl_nm/iraq_bush_photographs_dc">Link

Bush had seen some of the published images, the White House said, adding that the policy of restricting publication was intended to protect the privacy of the families.

"The president has seen the photos and his reaction is ... it's a reminder of the sacrifice that our men and women are providing in Iraq and around the world ... it's a testament to their service," White House spokesman Trent Duffy told reporters traveling with Bush to Florida.

But Duffy added: "In all of this, we must pay attention to the privacy and to the sensitivity of the families of the fallen, and that's what the policy is based on and that has to be the utmost concern."

What "privacy" is being violated by this?

I've seen these photos. They are all nameless rows of coffins draped in US flags.

You know why they don't want the media publishing these photos? It has nothing to do with the privacy of those unfortunate soldiers' families... and EVERYTHING to do with an administration that used duplicity and deceit to "justify" going to war with a country that was no direct threat to us trying to keep the war dead numbers as de-personalized as possible.

Seeing a headline reading "over 700 American soldiers dead" has one effect... actually seeing photographs of coffins containing those brave soldiers' remains has a completely different one.

It has the effect of enabling Americans to visualize those numbers as people. As Americans. They walked, they talked, they lived, breathed, and loved.

And now they are coming back in a box, one by one, in rows, draped in the colors of a country whose leadership has misled, betrayed, and willfully failed them.

THAT'S why the White House is in favour of keeping those kinds of photos under wraps. It demonstrates all too clearly that the price that this administration is paying for its folly is being tallied in the flesh and blood of our men and women who stood tall, and proudly took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States.

What a shameful, vulgar thing it is for someone to misuse and put in harm's way such valiant people for such petty, selfish political reasons.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2004, 07:21:31 PM »

Yup, what's a cliche a la "preaching to the choir" for those of us unreligious folk?

BizB · « **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2004, 07:42:37 PM »

Demo, I keep hearing you say taht we shouldn't be in Iraq and that they weren't a threat to us. As members of the UN Security Council, wasn't it our duty to uphold the resolutions passed by same? The fact that 2 of the nations that have veto power were against us (some would say they were against us becuase of back door deals with Iraq for oil), should we shirk our responsibilities? Further, would you rather that Al Queda be gathering and planning on our shores, or in Iraq?

Take the fight to them, I say.

photos: I can just see those pictures ending up in a Kerry advertisement. If I do see that, I will do everything in my power to make sure that Kerry never gets into any office... ever.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2004, 09:56:10 PM »

Al Qaeda didn't have a presence in Iraq before we invaded.

And I don't think we should be involved in the UN anyway.

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2004, 10:18:08 PM »

Due to its blatant unilateralism, the U.S. government's membership in the U.N. is pretty much a moot point anyway.

Law · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2004, 12:27:18 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes

And I don't think we should be involved in the UN anyway.

We should just be the lone wolf, bucking the trend of 179 other countries? Hell, even the Soviet Union knew better than that.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #6 on:** April 26, 2004, 08:31:09 AM »

Well it's either that, or abiding by the system that the UN has in place for handling such issues.

Iraq breaking numerous UN resolutions is a completely invalid argument for the US invading the country against international law and UN rules.

If your argument is "well Iraq was in violation of the UN resolutions!", then the correct answer was to let the UN handle them.

Particularly since we, as an individual country, were not under imminent threat of harm by Iraq at the time.

Using broken UN resolutions as an excuse to buck the rest of the UN and go to war is so illogical and nonsensical as to defy description.

Particularly when one considers that the United States has broken far more UN resolutions since the UN's creation than Iraq has. Granted, in my opinion most of those resolutions we've been called in violation of are bullshit -- which in part fuels my opinion that the UN is a joke -- but the fact remains, broken UN resolutions are not a valid excuse to fly in the face of the United Nations and pre-emptively invade any country without any kind of legitimate reasons.

My views on the US involvement in the United Nations stem mostly from how dangerously erosive the body is to US sovereignty.

Without getting too far sidetracked into a discussion about the United Nations, I will say that as a diplomatic body I can see great potential and need for the UN.

But it is being abused and is in direct conflict with the United States remaining a free nation, so I cannot in good conscience support our involvement in it as an organization or use of our military in UN actions. Our military is not intended to protect the nations, citizens, and borders of others. It is to protect the US; any use outside of that is in my opinion wrong.

TerrorDronze · « **Reply #7 on:** April 26, 2004, 01:02:30 PM »

eh.... a few war crimes never hurt anyone....

at least in bush's point of view...

G-wald · « **Reply #8 on:** May 02, 2004, 08:41:32 PM »

You know Demosthenes Fuck you, you liberals piss me off. First of all if we would have left iraq alone nothing would have happened because the UN as a whole is a bunch off pussy's and if we wouldn't have done something about iraq sometime in the next million years terrorists in iraq would have attacked us just like Al Qaeda did. I dont care how many years would have passed before terrorists in iraq attacked us on american soil the fact is that it would have happened. I dont care if it wouldnt have happened in my life but the fact that innocent people would have died because we didnt act earlier is unacceptable in my mind, and if you dont give your support to the people dying in iraq for you stinkin ass you can just get on a plane and leave american soil because as long as you dont support them your a disgrace to america.

hackess · « **Reply #9 on:** May 02, 2004, 10:09:39 PM »

I think I'll just leave this here...

G-wald, not supporting this...thing...in Iraq does not mean you don't support the troops themselves. I think the entire thing was a political chess maneuver, but I want the men and women over there back safely as soon as possible.

Before you post here again, why not make an account? And look up the word "elocution." You may want to practice it the next time you try to have a discussion.

xolik · « **Reply #10 on:** May 02, 2004, 11:24:02 PM »

I had no idea guests could even post. How funny. Do you know what I'd like to see that would be refreshing? A decent debate without some idiot crashing in offering nothing useful at all. It's either "OMG BUSH=HITLER!!! HE'S TEH CHIMP! LOLWTFBBQ!!!" or "STUPID LIBEARALS! FCUK YOU HIPPYS! GO BACK TO IRAQ U TERRIST!"

This hyper patriotism bullcrap needs to stop. Where the hell were your flags before 9-11? Not liking the president doesn't make you a terrorist. Supporting the president doesn't make you a war-mongering pyschopath either.

It cracks me up when I see the "SUPPORT AMERICA!" "GOD BLESS AMERICA" "NEVER FORGET" "#3" "AMERICA-LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT" bumperstickers on an fucking import. Yeah, yeah, I know. We'll never forget that fateful day when Dale Earnhardt crashed the space shuttle into the two towers. I don't know what pisses me off more. The idiots who scream "It's all about the oil!" or the flag-fucking "patriots" who'll gladly toss you in a prison camp if you even so much as question the whole war effort.

We were attacked on our own soil by a terrorist group. As much as I'd like for there to be an "Al-Qaedialand" country that we can flatten and reinstall, it isn't that easy. The man behind the attacks is Osama Bin Ladin. He's the guy we should be after, as he is apparently the mastermind behind the assault. Can we all agree on this?

Here's what we got so far. We thought he was in Afghanistan so we went in and kicked out the Taliban and looked for him there. Came up empty. No reliable idea where he is now. Perhaps Pakistan or Sheepfuckistan or wherever. We don't know. I think we did what was reasonable in this regard.

Here's what I don't like\understand\both. What's the status of Afghanistan? Did we not finish the job? From what I've heard from various sources, it's not exactly a flowering democracy yet. Ok, we're in Iraq now. Why? Saddam wasn't behind the attacks. We've already determined that it was Osama, a Saudi. Was this a "Well, since we're in the neighborhood, we'll drop by." thing?

WMD? Ok. I'll buy that. Why go after him now? Personally, I think this was nothing more than a Bush family vendetta against Saddam. Bush wanted revenge since Saddam "Tried to kill my father." Iraq is a threat to the US? Ok, I'll buy that also. Why stop at Iraq? Iran isn't all to keen about us too. How about North Korea? If they aren't a threat to the U.S. than I don't know what is. Hell, they've threatened to wipe out Los Angeles on several occasions. Oh yeah....good going on making the new Iraqi flag use the same bloody color patterns as the Israeli flag. Why don't you just stick a picture of Sharon's face in a heart with the words "Iraq loves Israel" in Arabic on it?

What do I think we should do.?Make up our minds. Are we ever going back to finish Afghanistan or not? Let's finish our job in Iraq, train Iraqi replacements for our troops and get the hell out of there. If you don't like Bush, then vote for somebody else. If you like Bush, then by all means vote for him. Just please don't be idiotic in your support\non-support for the President.

Dark Shade · « **Reply #11 on:** May 02, 2004, 11:40:26 PM »

Y'know, I've never really dug up a guy before, I wanna see how I can do.

Quote from: G-wald

You know Demosthenes Fuck you, you liberals piss me off.

I had thought we all learned this in Grade Three, how discriminating against any particular group, colour, race, gender, etc. was BAD, even more-so if you're digging into a guy who's obviously a hell of alot smarter than you are, and you don't even know him. Turn around and kick yourself in the ass for pointing out a political group for doing what they've been doing for years.

Quote from: G-wald

First of all if we would have left iraq alone nothing would have happened because the UN as a whole is a bunch off
pussy's

Need I remind you that the UN is doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing, which is maintaining a worldly structure of order amongst the various continents. If they just happened to be against our friend Mr. Bush here, it doesn't mean they're a bunch of 'pussies'. They're doing what they've been constructed to do.

Quote from: G-wald

and if we wouldn't have done something about iraq sometime in the next million years terrorists in iraq
would have attacked us just like Al Qaeda did.

Uh...no. Probably not. Iraq and Saddam, although they may have had motive and reason for flashing off their nuclear power, I don't think they had the balls to go through with any kind of 'invasion' or 'attack' plan. The whole pre-emptive strike approach seemed to fix them, yet was totally unecessary. Thousands of American soldiers didn't need to die in this particular case of genocide and deceit.

Quote from: G-wald

I dont care how many years would have passed before terrorists in iraq attacked us on american soil the fact is that it would have happened.

Read above statement on just how wrong I think you are.

Quote from: G-wald

I dont care if it wouldnt have happened in my life but the fact that innocent people would have died because we didnt act earlier is unacceptable in my mind

So sending about 10-12 times those who would have 'died' from the 'attack' INTO Iraq is, ultimately, better for America? I'm sorry, I just can't see how Bush can justify losing the American soldiers like that. What do you call the soldiers we sent into Iraq? Innocent? Damn right, and they all died for their country. So couldn't we have simply waited for Iraq to 'do something' they never planned to do in the first place? Nah, sending boatloads of soldiers to their deaths is probably more justifiable.

Quote from: G-wald

and if you dont give your support to the people dying in iraq for you stinkin ass you can just get on a plane and leave american soil because as long as you dont support them your a disgrace to america.

Did Demosthenes mention anywhere in his post about not supporting the American troops? Nope. Not unless I'm blind, which I know for a fact I'm not. I agree with him whole-heartedly on his standpoint: Bush fucked up, sent thousands of troops to their death, and then is now trying to cover it all up and put himself back in the clear. You and I both know damn well that if he doesn't find any traces of weaponry in constructed or completed form, he'll 'find' his own shit all over the news. It's the whole 'Gladiator' persona:

"He will bring them death, and they will love him for it."

Go ahead, slaughter some fairly decent Iraqi people and watch the media soak it all up. But oops, throw a few 'innocent' American soldier corpses on television, and then, well, ya gotta cover it up. Sad, really.

It's also quite sad that you're 15-17, you don't pay taxes, have a sizeable income, a taxing job, etc., yet here you are tearing into a perfectly able human being for disgareeing with the 'chance' side. American citizen? You bet. Able to speak of how others 'disgrace' their own homeland by not supporting a political Jack-In-The-Box's views on world order? Not on your life.

Oh, and even though I'm Canadian, I can still stay on my half of North America, right? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Binoboy · « **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2004, 06:33:28 AM »

Quote from: G-wald

blahblahblah I'm a Bush-fellating nationalist blahblahblah I'd follow Hitler (but not Stalin ) himself if he was resurrected and became president blahblahblah Vince Foster Marilyn Monroe Bill Klint00n Schwarzeneggr=pwn Heston=g0d *insert more predictable rambling, endless rant here*

You're a moron.
OK, in the interest of fairness, I should use your actual words.

Quote from: Mindless Limbaugh-jerking Paper Doll

Fuck you, you liberals

Ok, done reading.

Quote from: xolik

This hyper patriotism bullcrap needs to stop. Where the hell were your flags before 9-11?

Silly. You almost sound like you think these idiots are actual patriots.

Hey G-wald, how bout creating an account if you wanna "talk politics", or are you afraid of actual debate, you Freeper piece of chickenhawk chickenshit? "Conservatives use logic" my ass.

Note: Is not a liberal, before you say anything. And my flag is bigger than yours.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #13 on:** May 03, 2004, 09:24:25 AM »

Quote from: G-wald

You know Demosthenes Fuck you, you liberals piss me off.

"Liberal"?

Liberal?

You must be thinking of someone else.

I am no liberal.

Maybe in the 18th century definition of the word, but certainly not in the more contemporary use of it.

In fact, I'm probably more vehemently against modern liberals than you are, unregistered guest poster.

Quote

First of all if we would have left iraq alone nothing would have happened because the UN as a whole is a bunch off pussy's

I agree. The UN is a bureaucratic mess of slanted, biased, anti-US sentiment that is largely dedicated to grinding our economy down to a level with which the 3rd world can compete, but not through business or capitalistic free enterprise, but with force-mandated wealth redistribution.

But Iraq still wasn't our problem. It was the UN's problem at best. Our allies surrounding Iraq may have had a problem with Iraq, but it's funny... I don't recall any of them demanding that we go invading them.

In fact, most of them were pretty pissed off that we did, and rightly so: we just did more in a year to destabilize the entire region than decades of unrest about Israel has managed to do.

Mission accomplished, right?

Quote

and if we wouldn't have done something about iraq sometime in the next million years terrorists in iraq would have attacked us just like Al Qaeda did.

What "terrorists in Iraq"?

You're thinking of Afghanistan, right?

Looky here. This is Iraq:

THIS, on the other hand, is a country called "Afghanistan":

One of those countries was the main nest of the terrorist group known as "al Qaeda", the group responsible for the embassy bombings in Africa, the first World Trade Center bombing, the USS Cole bombing, and the attacks in 2001 on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

The other is not.

Q: Which one of those countries did we commit over 140,000 US troops to?

A: Not the one that was the home of al Qaeda.

Afghanistan is where we should have 140,000 troops right now.

Quote

I dont care how many years would have passed before terrorists in iraq attacked us on american soil the fact is that it would have happened.

You still mean "Afghanistan" here, right?

I'm just sayin'.

Quote

I dont care if it wouldnt have happened in my life but the fact that innocent people would have died because we didnt act earlier is unacceptable in my mind, and if you dont give your support to the people dying in iraq for you stinkin ass

I think better "support" for our troops is to not dishonor their noble service to their country by needlessly pouring their blood on foreign soil in wars in which we had no business being involved.

In fact, sending the brave American men and women of our military to their deaths in a needless war that appears to have only been started for political reasons seems to run quite counter to "support" for our troops, doesn't it?

In fact, one might almost call such conduct criminal.

Speaking as someone who has served in the US military, the actions of the current administration regarding our armed forces and their mistreatment of them are disgraceful and if I had my way, would be punished.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, right, Bushie-boy?

Quote

you can just get on a plane and leave american soil because as long as you dont support them your a disgrace to america.

Maybe I'm a disgrace in your "america". The one I live in has a capital "A" at the beginning of its name.

I did my part in the defense of our great nation. What about you?

Here, Mister Patriotic. Why don't you go find a place to wave this around:

xolik · « **Reply #14 on:** May 03, 2004, 09:40:58 AM »

Quote from: Demosthenes

Demo, did I ever tell you that you're my hero?

Demosthenes · « **Reply #15 on:** May 03, 2004, 09:51:44 AM »

Well, you know... al Qaeda was responsible for 2800 or so American deaths on US soil only a couple of years ago.

But the Bush Administration seems dedicated to being responsible for at least as many more American deaths in Iraq.... it's just taking him a little longer, that's all.

Maybe he's trying to one-up Osama? "Look, Bin Laden... nobody is gonna kill more 'Mericans than I can. Just to prove it, watch this!"

*invades some unrelated country with whom his family had a prior beef*

Binoboy · « **Reply #16 on:** May 03, 2004, 10:19:50 PM »

I need to get that bumper sticker. *drools*

Law · « **Reply #17 on:** May 04, 2004, 08:21:46 AM »

There are soooo many things in this thread that need to be responded to/ corrected. I wish I had the time to give a proper reponse. But, I don't so...

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Author Topic: Coffins (Read 5677 times)

Anonymous

G-wald