The Geek Forum
Main Forums => Political Opinions => Topic started by: Joe Sixpack on June 02, 2009, 08:56:40 AM
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I heard this on the radio this morning from a pro-life (or anti-choice, as they like to say) advocate speaking on the shooting of Dr. George Tiller. I paraphrase: "If the Christian religion is true, then abortion is murder". Can someone fill me in on the "logic" behind that statement? From a purely scholarly perspective, I don't think the Bible has anything to say on the matter as it is a fairly new invention. Please try to stay on topic for at least the first five posts :slap
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Religion not logical? This is new to you?
:roll:
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I paraphrase: "If the Christian religion is true, then abortion is murder".
This is such loaded bullshit it's not even funny. The Christian faith is based upon belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and salvation bought for us by his death on the cross. So from the quoted statement above, if I don't agree that abortion is murder, then the divinity of Christ and his sacrifice is now all a filthy lie? What the ever lovin' fuck?
NO TRUE SCOTSMAN
I swear, I want to cockpunch people who say such things. Yeah, it's not very Christlike to cockpunch people but then again, He Himself may have done it a few times but the translators probably just left it out.
"Lo, verilly, the Son of God went forth to the money-changers in the temple and, having overturned their tables, proceeded to administer the Divine Cockpunch to all who were naughty in his sight."
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This is not yet the 6th post, so I apologize if I go off-topic... but isn't it in somewhere in that Bible that one should not murder other people and that only God can judge whether what people do is right of wrong and no human has any business in making that (rather permanent) call on His behalf? (God, *pun intended* wouldn't the world be a different place if that could be agreed upon) Therefore, you could argue that the murderer behaved in a non-Christian way and according to his own believes, can look forward to a nice long holiday to a place where the sun does not shine but it does tend to get very hot... for all of eternity.
I should point out that I am not religious. But I can use the same mind tricks right? :roll:
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Can someone fill me in on the "logic" behind that statement?
No.
This is not yet the 6th post, so I apologize if I go off-topic... but isn't it in somewhere in that Bible that one should not murder other people and that only God can judge whether what people do is right of wrong and no human has any business in making that (rather permanent) call on His behalf? (God, *pun intended* wouldn't the world be a different place if that could be agreed upon) Therefore, you could argue that the murderer behaved in a non-Christian way and according to his own believes, can look forward to a nice long holiday to a place where the sun does not shine but it does tend to get very hot... for all of eternity.
I should point out that I am not religious. But I can use the same mind tricks right? :roll:
Capital punishment is a sin and murder too then. Every state than practices the death sentence is a sinful state!
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This is not yet the 6th post, so I apologize if I go off-topic... but isn't it in somewhere in that Bible that one should not murder other people and that only God can judge whether what people do is right of wrong and no human has any business in making that (rather permanent) call on His behalf?
Well, no. What it says is that none of us are able to judge a person, not that we're not able to judge a person's actions. It ties into the whole 'love the sinner, hate the sin' thing.
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I'm not sure if it's in Acts or not, I'll have to look, but we have full rights to judge members of our own congregation. Don't give me this 'oh brother so-and-so went apeshit and shot up a bunch of people, whelp who are we to say he's a bad man?' bullcrap.
Fun fact: The Bible often contradicts itself!
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Capital punishment is a sin and murder too then. Every state than practices the death sentence is a sinful state!
Well, it is all semantics isn't it? Capital punishment, murder, manslaugher, taking out the enemy in combat. Ending someone else's life. The only difference is a moral one. Whether or not it is a sin is a religious question and that is a separate issue. I mean, I am already a sinner regardless of my actions simply because I do not subscribe to any religion. But from a personal standpoint, I do believe a death sentence is morally wrong. Yet I hate having to pay all those taxes and keeping someone alive in jail for the rest of his life does cost a lot of MY money...
Well, no. What it says is that none of us are able to judge a person, not that we're not able to judge a person's actions. It ties into the whole 'love the sinner, hate the sin' thing.
Thanks, that is a difference. But is one justified to take certain actions, based on perceived 'wrong' actions of others? I think that's the whole point. Everybody thinks they are right. That's why we have laws. It's not great (the whole majority/minority thing), but it's better than the religious judge, jury & executioner system?
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Thanks, that is a difference. But is one justified to take certain actions, based on perceived 'wrong' actions of others?
Yeah! I'm not gonna go on a camping trip with a serial killer!
...the religious judge, jury & executioner system?
Which one's that? :|
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Which one's that? :|
Fundie Islam.
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Fundie Islam.
Careful now, Joe and Ves will brook none of that. Please keep your disparaging remarks confined to Christianity.
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...the religious judge, jury & executioner system?
Which one's that? undecided
I suppose I could have clarified that I mean that as a figure of speech, not so much real practise (not anymore anyway).
But still, it does not sit right with me. There are murdering lunatics everywhere, but to spout pro-life banner when the body is not even in the ground, that's low. That's like legitimising the murder and might encourage new ones, even if they say otherwise.
I never quite understood what is wrong with "live and let live". If one is against abortion, don't ever get one yourself (including in the horrible situation where you get raped and pregnant as a result). Respect for that, really. But allow other people a different choice. Even if you think it is the wrong one. What ever gave them the idea that they ought to choose for others? Disagreeing with others and trying to understand their position (and who knows, mellow up or even change position yourself) is what makes life interesting.
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If you perceive something as a moral evil, you're probably not going to be happy with 'live and let live'. I mean, what's wrong with 'live and let live' where slavery or rape or murder is concerned?
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Well, that's taking it a bit literally isn't it? I mean it in a libertarian kind of way: "each individual should be free to do as he or she pleases so long as he or she does not harm others." This obviously excludes slavery, rape & murder.
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Some people do consider the unborn an other, though.
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Sure, and I respect that. It's worth a debate. But not murder.
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I think the only problem with the 'live and let live' scenario with anti-choice people is that they think you are murdering someone, so they don't want you to carry on with your business of aborting your unborn child because to them you aren't playing by the rules, you are hurting people, or rather a person.
Therefore the This obviously excludes slavery, rape & murder.
gets called into play they can't live and let live. So they start shooting people and setting fire to doctors and all, which is fucking rich when you think of there moral motives.
Joe: I'd imagine that it ties in with the sixth commandment "You shall not murder". It's a life, therefore taking it is murder.
I'd break it down like this, a woman's egg is living cells, but by not fertilising it you aren't committing murder but allowing the natural course of its duration as living. If you use a condom you are preventing its continuation*, similar case with sperm. If however, the egg was fertilized and then the woman was to abort or take the morning after pill then that is actively killing the cells that are alive and THAT is classed as murder (in the eyes of SOME catholic people and probably other religions too).
Having said that, although I worry about the moral implications of abortion and what affects it has on the terminators mental state I am very much pro-choice.
*There are arguments that this in itself is a sin, I went to a catholic school, my chemistry teacher has 7 children and had never used contraception. We argued A LOT.
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Careful now, Joe and Ves will brook none of that. Please keep your disparaging remarks confined to Christianity.
Idiots and jerks should be outed as such regardless of their religion, 12. It is generalizations and falsehoods I will not brook.
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Idiots and jerks should be outed as such regardless of their religion, 12. It is generalizations and falsehoods I will not brook.
CONCUR!!!
And to expand on this theme, I have no problem with xolik naming fundie Islam. Because he put the 'fundie' in there, he'll get no argument from me.
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<snip>
Having said that, although I worry about the moral implications of abortion and what affects it has on the terminators mental state I am very much pro-choice.
<snip>
Please understand that I'm not intending to be a bitch when i say, "Who are you to worry about the mental state of someone who has an abortion?" Have you ever stopped to think that for many many women, the only thing they feel about it is a profound sense of relief? Maybe I'm just being touchy about it, but your phrasing implies a sense of superiority; as though a woman who wants/has an abortion is incapable of dealing with that decision.
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Please understand that I'm not intending to be a bitch when i say, "Who are you to worry about the mental state of someone who has an abortion?" Have you ever stopped to think that for many many women, the only thing they feel about it is a profound sense of relief? Maybe I'm just being touchy about it, but your phrasing implies a sense of superiority; as though a woman who wants/has an abortion is incapable of dealing with that decision.
Maybe you are being touche, because that's not what it means at all.
Edit: You know, it seems you read a lot of what I write in an extremely negative way. I'm not entirely sure why. But being concerned for other people is a good thing. I don't think that I am superior to other woman, I have just not HAD an abortion, so i don't need to worry about my emotional state after having one. Of course there are women who would only feel relief afterwards and thats great. But there are other women who have been profoundly effected by the experience and I know it can be very damaging, so for that reason I am concerned and for no other.
Furthermore I would ask that if you have any problems interpreting what I am writing you would do me the kindness of letting me explain it rather than telling me what it implies.
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I would guess that almost everyone would rather there were no abortions, or rather, that they were not necessary. It is a sad thing. But sometimes they are necessary and it's just a question of whether or not you are presumptuous enough to think that you can make that decision for someone else. Not that you are, just that that's what it comes down to.
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fo sho.
No one has the right to chose for someone else.
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I think some of you are missing the main point of the argument, though. Obviously a person has a right to life, regardless of whether their parents think terminating them is necessary or not. But when does a human life become a human person? Is it when the child is born, when the foetus is feasible, when the body is fully formed, when the nueral system starts firing up, when the two gametes form a unique human organism?
And if we can't reasonably tell when a human life is classified as a human person, do we allow people to make their own choice whether to have abortions or not, or do we outlaw abortions because we don't know? If we can tell when a human life becomes a human person, is terminating the life before it becomes a person classed as preleptic murder or not?
It's an issue that totally baffles me, but I know it's not as simple as either side makes out.
Edit: And there's also the question of whether a mother is obliged to bear her child or not, but not many people seem to think she doesn't.
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Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!
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Until I give birth to it, it remains as part of my body, alive or dead, but an apendage of my body. As part of my body I can peirce, tattoo, and cut if off if I choose. When it stops being part of my body then you can tell me what I or any other woman has the right to do with it. It is not separate from me until after the abilical cord is cut. Until that point, it's my blood, my air, my nervous system supporting the little fucker it's my decision what happens to it.
And that's my opinion.
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Good point Chiro. I don't know, probably nobody knows. But I do know that I cannot consider a clump of living cells to be a person. The medical limit is 22 weeks I think, I would not stretch it that far personally. In my view, abortion should be done early or not at all. But I don't have to make the call for others.
As much as I respect pro-life opinions, I think things change dramatically when it is no longer an academic problem, when judging from a distance will not longer suffice. What if you or someone very close to you gets raped & pregnant as a result? Any one is entitled to his or her opinion and I don't expect anyone's to change, but I would like to believe that when it matters, human compassion while come to the fore front. Not some misguided dogma. And that's what really matters.
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... I would like to believe that when it matters, human compassion while come to the fore front...
Prepare to be disappointed.
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As much as I respect anti-choice opinions
You've just inspired me to start calling "Pro-choice" people "Anti-life" instead.
Prepare to be disappointed.
^ Thisx1000
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First off, there aren't many sane people who think that murdering this doctor is a good thing. Pro-lifers made it very clear that they don't condone it. The people who did it and the people who think it's great that someone did it are morons and everyone who is pro-life shouldn't be lumped in with them.
As for whether or not a fetus is a life...my opinion...you have finger prints? you have a heartbeat, a brain, you're wrapping your fingers around your toes and your nose? I don't care that you're less than an inch big, you're alive. That's at nine weeks. And stuff like that happens at week one and develops very rapidly. I know lots disagree with me and that's fine. I, myself, don't see how I can think anything other than that it's a life immediately. It's such a sticky topic. I don't think it's right, but I can't see myself telling others what to do. I like to avoid abortion debates because I don't have a clear stand on it.
I think one reason that people don't think it's life is that when a child is born and dies, there is a funeral, a burial...a big deal. When a woman miscarries, there is no funeral, no public grieving. So it's easy to think of it as not a baby. In fact, when a woman miscarries before 12 weeks (which is staggeringly common), only the people closest to her know she was even pregnant. So many people don't even hear about it. I find that interesting.
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Prepare to be disappointed.
I did say "would like to believe" ;)
You've just inspired me to start calling "Pro-choice" people "Anti-life" instead.
You are right... in my defense, I am not a native speaker and no derogatory* meaning was intended. I apologize. Post edited.
* yes I did have to look that up.
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In an attempt to get this back on Joe's topic, I thought I would add something interesting that IS contained in the Bible (as relates to pregnancy termination).
Exodus 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Now, I find it interesting that the only mention (that I know of in the entire Bible) of punishment for "killing of an unborn" calls for a fine. I mean, hell, this is even Old Testament law where death sentences are prescribed like candy for even relatively minor offenses (e.g. mixing of fabrics). And yet, causing the death of an unborn is punishable by a fine....go figure.
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And to expand on this theme, I have no problem with xolik naming fundie Islam. Because he put the 'fundie' in there, he'll get no argument from me.
Because it's JUST the fundies that are violent, right?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7894721.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7894721.stm)
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07232008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/an_american_honor_killing_121118.htm (http://www.nypost.com/seven/07232008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/an_american_honor_killing_121118.htm)
http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=8412 (http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=8412)
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4144583.html (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4144583.html)
http://sheikyermami.com/2008/12/24/violent-muslim-riots-in-sweden-spread-to-stockholm/ (http://sheikyermami.com/2008/12/24/violent-muslim-riots-in-sweden-spread-to-stockholm/)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31014239/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31014239/)
**edit - to take out one video link; the video wasn't what the link and site said it was. Sorry for the discrepancy.
**edit - ok, and the Times UK links.. they quit working.
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My point isn't to aggravate you, Ves. See it this way for a second:
There's all these instances of violence fomented and committed by regular, run-of-the-mill Muslims (fundies, too, but we all agree to that), and not one single thread ( that I'm aware of ) about any of it. Nothing about the 136 beheadings and crucifixions this year alone so far in SAUDI ARABIA by the GOVERNMENT there. And Saudi Arabia is one of the most western-friendly Islamic nations there is. They aren't 'fundamentalists', radicals, "terrorists", or anything of the sort.
Abortion. Hmm. What do you imagine they would do upon finding THAT out? But NO ONE says a word. Not a word. In fact; when someone DOES say something about it (ME); they are called 'racist', bigoted, and retarded. As if a religion of such nature is defendable.
But yet, here we have ONE dude shooting an abortion doctor. NO Christian groups are condoning it, none are asking for clemency for the man. In fact, they were all horrified and SAID SO. But we have a thread starting out with an insulting attitude towards Christians/Christianity. Not about Christians "fundamentalists", or Christian "jihadists" or "radicals"; but about 'Christians"; based on this one dude who shot the doctor. I can also find more threads in this same theme; ie., "The Vatican is at it again", etc. Each thread generalizing about Christians.
Now, let me state that I don't consider myself a "Christian", I'm certainly not Jewish, not Hindu nor Buddist, nor any other organized religion. So I really don't care what gets espoused by whom about which religion. But I DO find it telling that when a thread such as this one comes up; concensus is usually the same. "Christians are loony." And when a thread such as I have started on Islam comes up, the religion and its followers are defended vehemently by the same people who slammed the Christians.
I just don't get it. Christians have tried to be peaceful and get along with most people (in recent times); although I resent their fiddling with laws, I haven't been threatened - directly or indirectly - nor has my way of life been targeted for destruction by any Christian or any Christian group. On the other hand, though they may be somewhat removed from my locale; I have heard and seen threats from Muslims (radicals AND regular people out rioting) to Westerners/Infidels and this way of life; and a few times they've made good on their threats. So I just don't get the disparity on this board. In fact, I would think you in particular would be more incensed about Women's situations under Islam and sharia law; which is being pushed to be installed in existing western countries, btw; than you would be about the Christians' abortion stance.
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Idiots and jerks should be outed as such regardless of their religion, 12.
So where are these outing threads on the other religions? I couldn't find A N Y.
It is generalizations and falsehoods I will not brook.
Not to be argumentative; but isn't this entire thread based on the premise of a Christian point of view? That's a pretty big generalization.
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The thread is asking for some perspective on the statement of one guy.
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Ok, my mistake then. I understood it to be asking for perspective on that "logic". It seems almost everyone else did as well.
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One guy's logic, who does self-identify as Christian.
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Fun fact #1: Not only am I pro-life, I could be considered a (former) pro-life activist.
Fun fact #2: "Pro-life" and "anti-abortion" mean two different things. Pro-lifers are a subset of the anti-abortion crowd, but the two are technically NOT the same.
Fun fact #3: No true pro-lifer would EVER condone the killing of an abortionist. True pro-lifers believe in protecting life from conception until natural death (or, barring that, accidental death.)
This is an extremely difficult discussion to hold rationally, in no small part because the two sides can't even agree on the parameters of the debate (such as the question of when life even begins, the question of when personhood begins, and the question of when rights should kick in.) The other factor is that in a pregnancy in which abortion is on the table, both the mother and the fetus/unborn_child have an enormous stake, and the nature of the debate is such that there often are no win-win options. And that's really the hard part.
What saddens and angers me is that because the debate is so emotionally-charged, it's impossible to work toward common ground and toward a real, workable, lasting solution. And because the question of abortion is also tied with questions of morality, people who oppose abortion are far less likely to want to compromise. (Actually, that's a two-way street. I've also found that militant supporters of abortion rights are equally unwilling to compromise, particularly where regulation of abortion is concerned, because they see every regulation and restriction as an infringement on the right to choose.)
The point I'm trying to make is that this particular battleground is a perfect breeding ground for the likes of Scott Roeder or Randall Terry, who become so blinded with hatred about the issue that they lose sight of why they even fight for the issue. They justify killings and bombings on the basis of "how many unborn do we save with each killing or bombing?" (I'd be willing to bet that the correct answer to that question approaches zero, since there are usually other providers, and if you're willing to have the procedure done, you're probably willing to travel for it.) But in my book, they're as evil and as fundamentally wrong as Fred Phelps, possibly even more so.
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So performing a D'n'E or D'n'S on a woman carrying an anecepahalic or (insert various other anomalies here) rather than having the woman carry said anomaly to term and have it still born is immoral?
I ask because I know someone who 'terminated her pregancy' after the diagnostics showed no further development. I find it odd that said killer was a male who can't become pregnant nor face any such circumstance as listed above.
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Look at what I've done. Mention 'Islam' and BAM.
Oy.
We've got abortion *not an abortion thread* and religion. Hell, let's get the trifecta in play here, shall we?
What do you think Obama hates more: Jesus or America?
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Look at what I've done. Mention 'Islam' and BAM.
If you are referring to my posts, they have nothing to do with you or your mention of Islam. I believe I laid out fairly clearly what I was on about.
Does this bother you in some way? That I protest that one relatively peaceful religion is constantly put down, and one relatively violent is constantly defended? Why is that? That seems to be a real problem here. You (a Christian) seemingly upset about what I've said about Islam; but not upset at all (it seems) over the remarks made about Christians/Christianity. Could you please explain this to me?
...or did you just forget </ troll> ? :lol:
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If you are referring to my posts, they have nothing to do with you or your mention of Islam. I believe I laid out fairly clearly what I was on about.
Does this bother you in some way? That I protest that one relatively peaceful religion is constantly put down, and one relatively violent is constantly defended? Why is that? That seems to be a real problem here. You (a Christian) seemingly upset about what I've said about Islam; but not upset at all (it seems) over the remarks made about Christians/Christianity. Could you please explain this to me?
...or did you just forget </ troll> ? :lol:
If you think I'm upset about what you said over Islam, then you're looking WAAAAY too deep into my posts. And I believe if you look up some old posts of mine either here or at the old HN, you'll see me being quite the defender of Christianity when stupid shit like this gets pulled.
Calm down, no need to go cutting off people's heads.
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There you go, bashing the muslims again. Or was that the french....
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There you go, bashing the muslims again. Or was that the french....
French Muslims! Two birds, man, two birds....
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/me runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off...
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/me gives xolik head back.
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Christianity likes to err on the side of caution. the bible says not to kill people, and an unborn child may or may not be considered a person. Therefore, in order to minimize chances of sinning, abortion is looked at as murder. Simple as that.
no pro-lifers in their right mind wanted that doctor murdered - that would make them as bad as him.