The Geek Forum

  • May 10, 2024, 09:08:09 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Due to the prolific nature of these forums, poster aggression is advised.

*

Recent Forum Posts

Shout Box

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 129623
  • Total Topics: 7186
  • Online Today: 152
  • Online Ever: 1013
  • (January 12, 2023, 01:18:11 AM)
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: The Bill of Non-Rights  (Read 12823 times)

Anonymous

  • Guest
The Bill of Non-Rights
« on: June 08, 2004, 05:55:29 AM »

Someone sent me this in an email and I thought it was rather interesting:

Quote

The Bill of Non-Rights

The following has been attributed to State Representative Mitchell Kaye from GA. This guy should run for President one day...

"We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other liberal bed-wetters.

We hold these truths to be self evident: that a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of NON-Rights."

ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc.; but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.

ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII: You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

ARTICLE IX: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to PURSUE happiness, which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

ARTICLE X: This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you are from, English is our language. Learn it or go back to wherever you came from!
(finally....)

ARTICLE XI: You do not have the right to change our country's history or heritage. This country was founded on the belief in one true God. And yet, you are given the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all; with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!!


I can actually agree with some of those.
Logged

reimero

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +112/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1147
    • View Profile
    • http://www.omgjonx.com
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2004, 08:59:22 AM »

I've seen this before and tend to agree with pretty much all of it.
Logged
"This f*cker is in wisconsin, reimero is from awesomeland." - Bobert

Min

  • Nice Ex-Hackernetwork Moderator
  • Forum Moderator
  • Hacker
  • *
  • Coolio Points: +468/-13
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 5970
  • Slacker Wiseass
    • View Profile
Re: The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2004, 09:13:00 AM »

Quote

And yet, you are given the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all; with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!!


First off, I don't consider the 1950's our "heritage".  

Second, don't these two sentences contradict one another?
Logged
Flammable : Inflammable :: Duh : No Duh
"I TYPE 120 WORDS PER MINUTE, BUT IT'S IN MY OWN LANGUAGE!"  -ivan
1,180,463,441,680 Coolio Points

Anonymous

  • Guest
Re: The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2004, 09:58:14 AM »

Quote from: Detta
Second, don't these two sentences contradict one another?


Pretty much.
Logged

reimero

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +112/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1147
    • View Profile
    • http://www.omgjonx.com
Re: The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2004, 10:16:40 AM »

Quote from: Detta
Quote

And yet, you are given the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all; with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!!


First off, I don't consider the 1950's our "heritage".  

Second, don't these two sentences contradict one another?

1950s?  Hardly.  1950s was when "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance, but there have always been Christian underpinings dating back all the way to the 1770s (the Declaration of Independence would be a good start.  The In God We Trust dates back to 1861, according to the U.S. Treasury Department
Logged
"This f*cker is in wisconsin, reimero is from awesomeland." - Bobert

Demosthenes

  • Evil Ex-HN Moderator
  • Administrator
  • Hacker
  • *
  • Coolio Points: +567/-72
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9904
  • Just try me. See what happens.
    • View Profile
    • Zombo
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2004, 10:28:28 AM »

I've got no problems with it, except for the last two articles.

- Speak whatever language you want.  It's ultimately your problem if people can't understand you.

- Which "GOD"?  Vishnu? Yahweh?  Zeus?  I was unaware of the legislation that established monotheism as a national mandate.  I don't trust in ANY deity, much less one as nebulous as the one dictated by this manifesto, and I won't be told by my government that I have to in order to be considered a "good citizen".  :roll:
Logged

Coolio Points: 89,000,998,776,554,211,222
Detta Puzzle Points: 45

Banning forum idiots since 2001

xolik

  • King of the Geekery
  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +541/-25
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5176
  • HAY GUYS
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2004, 10:47:53 AM »

This will never work. It advocates personal responsibility and that's just silly.
Logged
Barium: What you do if CPR fails.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
[The Fade^C Compound]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

hackess

  • Forum Moderator
  • Hacker
  • *
  • Coolio Points: +10/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • DFG
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2004, 10:50:19 AM »

Quote from: xolik
This will never work. It advocates personal responsibility and that's just silly.


Logged

Binoboy

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1258
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2004, 11:22:34 AM »

Does not the Declaration of Independence and all our earliest documents refer to "nature's God", "our Creator", and "divine Providence? These guys had the decency and tact to be general with their religious references, unlike this "In God We Trust" stuff, which was another creation of the '50s, I'm pretty sure.

(Then again the whole idea of forcing recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance every day is so cute, and just smacks of something we would be angry at the Soviets for doing. "Hello Timmy, did you take your loyalty oath today?")

EDIT: Anyway, and it shows in this e-mail, no matter how Libertarian this guy may see himself as, he's still from Georgia.
Logged
To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub... Ha ha! ...'Rub'!

reimero

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +112/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1147
    • View Profile
    • http://www.omgjonx.com
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2004, 11:26:05 AM »

Quote from: Demosthenes

- Which "GOD"?  Vishnu? Yahweh?  Zeus?  I was unaware of the legislation that established monotheism as a national mandate.  I don't trust in ANY deity, much less one as nebulous as the one dictated by this manifesto, and I won't be told by my government that I have to in order to be considered a "good citizen".  :roll:


I think the point is that there's a difference between freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.  We've gone from the attitude of "worship whomever you please however you please" to "but don't even think about demonstrating anything remotely related to faith in public."
"God" is sufficiently vague that it can be interpreted in any variety of ways.  Abolishing all aspects of any sort of faith is a HUGE mistake, IMHO.  So much of our culture is, objectively speaking, rooted in Judeao-Christianity.  The whole reason the pilgrims moved here is that they wanted to avoid persecution from the official state religion.  But we're now reaching the point where atheism is the de facto state religion.  And that's a mistake.
Logged
"This f*cker is in wisconsin, reimero is from awesomeland." - Bobert

MISTER MASSACRE

  • Lady Modmalade
  • Forum Moderator
  • Hacker
  • *
  • Coolio Points: +292/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2810
  • inhaling chalk in the old school
    • View Profile
    • twittery
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2004, 11:28:30 AM »

Quote from: reimero
But we're now reaching the point where atheism is the de facto state religion.  And that's a mistake.


Please explain how.
Logged

Anonymous

  • Guest
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2004, 11:32:03 AM »

Yes please explain. Also, cool lookin' sig you got there Cat.
Logged

Binoboy

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1258
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2004, 11:33:37 AM »

Quote
I think the point is that there's a difference between freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.

No no, the Bill of Rights guarantees us Freedom FROM Religion as well.
Quote
We've gone from the attitude of "worship whomever you please however you please" to "but don't even think about demonstrating anything remotely related to faith in public."

Oh God *pun intended*, tell me this isn't a school prayer reference.
Didn't Jesus (might have been Mark...) say... oh nevermind; Christians don't listen to Jesus. :P
Quote
"God" is sufficiently vague that it can be interpreted in any variety of ways.

All of those ways include religions that believe in a monotheistic God, or a God at all, though. That leaves out alot.
Quote
Abolishing all aspects of any sort of faith is a HUGE mistake, IMHO.  So much of our culture is, objectively speaking, rooted in Judeao-Christianity.

Yes yes, don't kill, don't steal. All original Christian concepts.
Quote
The whole reason the pilgrims moved here is that they wanted to avoid persecution from the official state religion.

Yes, and what's the first thing they did when they got here (besides killing natives)?
Quote
But we're now reaching the point where atheism is the de facto state religion.  And that's a mistake.

With all due respect Sir, I find this claim to be confusing; please elaborate. I just know I'm going to regret asking that, though.
Logged
To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub... Ha ha! ...'Rub'!

MISTER MASSACRE

  • Lady Modmalade
  • Forum Moderator
  • Hacker
  • *
  • Coolio Points: +292/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2810
  • inhaling chalk in the old school
    • View Profile
    • twittery
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2004, 11:35:32 AM »

Quote from: Binoboy

With all due respect Sir, I find this claim to be confusing; please elaborate. I just know I'm going to regret asking that, though.


S'ok, I already did. You can blame it all on me.
Logged

Binoboy

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1258
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2004, 11:36:23 AM »

Quote
The following was written by State Representative Mitchell Kaye from GA.
"We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden, deluded, and other liberal bed-wetters. We hold these truths to be self-evident: that a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No Rights."

ARTICLE I:
You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II:
You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone — not just you! You may leave the room, change the channel, or express a different opinion, but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III:
You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

ARTICLE IV:
You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE V:
You do not have the right to free health care That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.

ARTICLE VI:
You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII:
You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII:
You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.

ARTICLE IX:
You don't have the right to a job. Sure, all of us want all of you to have one, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

ARTICLE X:
You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness — which, by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

If you agree, we strongly urge you to forward this to as many people as you can. No, you don't have to, and nothing tragic will befall you should you not forward it. We just think it is about time common sense is allowed to flourish — call it the age of reason revisited.



The original.

Quote
Origins:   Mitchell Kaye, a Georgia state representative from Marietta, is not the originator of the piece. The famed "Bill of No Rights" was written in 1993 by Lewis Napper, a self-described amateur philosopher and from Mississippi who ran for a U.S. Senate seat in 2000 as a Libertarian.

Kaye's name likely became associated with it through the innocent act of finding the article in his inbox and liking it enough to forward to friends. People tend to leave official-looking signatures intact when they forward e-mail, and his name's remaining with the piece beyond the initial round of forwardings could easily have created the impression that he was the article's creator.

Kaye is quick to give credit where credit is due, and his office routinely informs those who ask about the "Bill of No Rights" of its true authorship.

On 19 July 2000, advice columnist Ann Landers published a truncated version of the piece, attributing it to Kaye. (Left out were the points about free health care and sending troops to fight in foreign wars.) She praised his "tough 'do-it-yourself' position" and declared the language he used to convey his message "delicious."

The "Bill" resonates with folks because it addresses a number of issues that have often led many of us to shake our heads in disbelief. This Bill of Rights parody strikes straight at the heart of the sense of entitlement so often displayed by those who feel the world owes them a living.


Courtesy of teh Sn0p3z

EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised that the current version circulating would strike out Article VIII with a vengeance. :lol: Silly conservatives, heh.

EDIT: Oh my! Look at that; the new Articles X and XI are nowhere to be found in the original. No wonder they completely contradict, don't sound anything like the rest of the Bill, and all in all fly in the face of any kind of freedom. Oh those conservatives, so willing to shamelessly alter or change anything that doesn't have the word "God" in it.
Logged
To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub... Ha ha! ...'Rub'!

Anonymous

  • Guest
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2004, 11:36:29 AM »

Quote from: Binoboy
With all due respect Sir, I find this claim to be confusing; please elaborate. I just know I'm going to regret asking that, though.


Good Sir, statements like that make me want to invite you to a D&D session and have you play a Paladin.
Logged

Binoboy

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1258
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2004, 11:41:02 AM »

Quote from: TheJudge
Quote from: Binoboy
With all due respect Sir, I find this claim to be confusing; please elaborate. I just know I'm going to regret asking that, though.


Good Sir, statements like that make me want to invite you to a D&D session and have you play a Paladin.


I believe I would make a good Paladin, if not for that whole reverence to the Church thing, I imagine; though I imagine the Creator would not kill me for it.
And I've never played D&D.
Logged
To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub... Ha ha! ...'Rub'!

Demosthenes

  • Evil Ex-HN Moderator
  • Administrator
  • Hacker
  • *
  • Coolio Points: +567/-72
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9904
  • Just try me. See what happens.
    • View Profile
    • Zombo
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2004, 11:45:54 AM »

Quote from: reimero
I think the point is that there's a difference between freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.


Freedom OF religion IS freedom FROM religion, if you're an atheist or an agnostic.  Mixing religion with government interferes with my "free practice thereof", and violates my rights if I am not a subscriber to whatever faith is being promoted.

Quote
 We've gone from the attitude of "worship whomever you please however you please" to "but don't even think about demonstrating anything remotely related to faith in public."


Not at all.  Express your faith however you like... just don't let that expression interfere with the practices of others.  Like insisting that it be included in government proceedings, edicts, legislation, on public documents, property, structures, or anything else that expresses preference of one religion or faith over others.

That's not hard to avoid.  Not putting "IN GOD WE TRUST" on money in no way interferes with the ability of monotheists to worship how they please, and not putting the ten commandments in every courthouse doesn't in any way diminish the capability of Judeo Christians of abiding by whatever rules the Bible is dictating by this week's interpretation of it.

BUT, going out of your way TO put those things there interferes with the religious practices of those that may not believe that same exact way by essentially creating an "official endorsement" of that religion by government, engendering a preferred class of citizens among those that believe in that particular way, and a second class among those that may not.

As an atheist, walking into a courtroom with IN GOD WE TRUST in big letters on the wall simply tells me that unless I believe in whatever "GOD" that's referring to, I will not have an expectation of receiving fair, just treatment at the hands of this instrument of justice.

And that is pretty un-American.

Quote
"God" is sufficiently vague that it can be interpreted in any variety of ways.


If the distinction is not important, then wouldn't it be simpler to just not insist on its use?

Quote
 Abolishing all aspects of any sort of faith is a HUGE mistake, IMHO.


Again, I don't think anyone here is asking for the abolition of religion.  Just the abolition of its encumbering intertwinings with government.  That way anyone can practice any religion they wish -- or none at all -- without fear of being treated differently.

Quote
So much of our culture is, objectively speaking, rooted in Judeao-Christianity.  The whole reason the pilgrims moved here is that they wanted to avoid persecution from the official state religion.


Which is exactly why people like me oppose the government insisting that we be at least monotheistic by proclaiming IN GOD WE TRUST all over everything.

By "WE", it certainly does not include those of us that do NOT trust in this "GOD", so that leaves us essentially strangers in a strange land.

Not to mention, the pilgrims escaped one state religion and established their own, persecuting others themselves.  Not exactly a good, shining example to live by.

Quote
 But we're now reaching the point where atheism is the de facto state religion.  And that's a mistake.


Atheism isn't a religion... it's a lack thereof.  And given the choice between a government endorsing monotheism and a government that doesn't endorse ANY religion, the more fair option and more Constitutionally friendly one would be the latter, not the former.

Again, nobody is for mandating state-enforced atheism or the tearing down of churches or anything.

Just keep it out of the government.  Easy.  :)
Logged

Coolio Points: 89,000,998,776,554,211,222
Detta Puzzle Points: 45

Banning forum idiots since 2001

Binoboy

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1258
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2004, 11:51:34 AM »

I think the question's not why people are trying to push religion out of the town square; it's why there are people who insist on pushing it into the town square.

And why is putting God on money a good thing for either party involved? I'm remembering something about God and Mammon, here.
Logged
To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub... Ha ha! ...'Rub'!

Demosthenes

  • Evil Ex-HN Moderator
  • Administrator
  • Hacker
  • *
  • Coolio Points: +567/-72
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9904
  • Just try me. See what happens.
    • View Profile
    • Zombo
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2004, 12:01:10 PM »

That's a good point, bino.

Why indeed are there people insisting on pushing religion into a government that was established to avoid just that sort of thing?  What purpose does it serve?

Roger Ebert wrote an excellent article last year (linkage) that summed up this question and entire argument nicely.

Quote
This is really an argument between two kinds of prayer--vertical and horizontal. I don't have the slightest problem with vertical prayer. It is horizontal prayer that frightens me. Vertical prayer is private, directed upward toward heaven. It need not be spoken aloud, because God is a spirit and has no ears. Horizontal prayer must always be audible, because its purpose is not to be heard by God, but to be heard by fellow men standing within earshot.

To choose an example from football, when my team needs a field goal to win and I think, "Please, dear God, let them make it!" --that is vertical prayer. When, before the game, a group of fans joins hands and "voluntarily" recites the Lord's Prayer--that is horizontal prayer. It serves one of two purposes: to encourage me to join them, or to make me feel excluded.

Although some of the horizontal devout are sincere, others use this prayer as a device of recruitment or intimidation. If you are conspicuous in your refusal to go along, they may even turn and pray while holding you directly in their sights.

This simple insight about two kinds of prayer, which is beyond theological question, should bring a dead halt to the obsession with prayer in public places. It doesn't, because the purpose of its supporters is political, not spiritual. Their faith is like Dial soap: Now that they use it, they wish everyone would. I grew up in an America where people of good breeding did not impose their religious convictions upon those they did not know very well. Now those manners have been discarded.


This is my country too.  I was born here, raised here, lived all my life here, and I willingly put my own life on the line to defend the freedom guaranteed all who dwell here.  And the Constitution I swore an oath to defend goes well out of its way to point out that the government of my country shouldn't be playing favorites with faith... that is left to people -- individuals -- not the government.

Every time the government endorses religion, it really means only one of two things from my point of view:  it is an attempt to encourage me to practice that religion, or it is an attempt to exclude me because of my refusal to do so.
Logged

Coolio Points: 89,000,998,776,554,211,222
Detta Puzzle Points: 45

Banning forum idiots since 2001

Binoboy

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1258
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2004, 12:11:41 PM »

Oh Demo you silly, everyone knows there are no atheists in the foxholes. Random people say it all the time.
Logged
To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub... Ha ha! ...'Rub'!

Demosthenes

  • Evil Ex-HN Moderator
  • Administrator
  • Hacker
  • *
  • Coolio Points: +567/-72
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9904
  • Just try me. See what happens.
    • View Profile
    • Zombo
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2004, 12:12:39 PM »

Oh yeah, that's right.  I forgot about that.
Logged

Coolio Points: 89,000,998,776,554,211,222
Detta Puzzle Points: 45

Banning forum idiots since 2001

Binoboy

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1258
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2004, 12:13:50 PM »

What an excellent article, btw. But we're sure this is written by Roger Ebert and not, say, Mitchell Kaye? :P
Logged
To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub... Ha ha! ...'Rub'!

reimero

  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +112/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1147
    • View Profile
    • http://www.omgjonx.com
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2004, 12:26:04 PM »

Quote
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."


That sounds a lot different than "The display of words or symbols of religious derivative, or supplications and prayers of the same nature or any other display indicative of religious faith in any public setting is hereby prohibited."

The law, as written, means that the federal government cannot establish Calvinism as the national religion.  There is nothing in there indicating that Utah cannot make Mormon the official religion of Utah.  That said, SCOTUS retroactively (and incorrectly) applied that ruling (in spite of the fact that the explicit wording is "Congress shall make no law...")

The United States bends over backwards pretending to be a religion-neutral country.  In fact, this country is extremely Calvinist in its roots and outlook.  The VAST majority of the Founding Fathers were Calvinist, and it permeates their ideologies and philosophies.  We didn't have a Catholic President until 1961, and we have yet to have a non-Christian President.

You can't remove the historical faith element from government completely.  Or would you remove all military and Congressional chaplains, re-mint every piece of currency, rework the Great Seal (which dates back to 1781), change the national anthem (read the third verse sometime) and most of our other patriotic songs, and eliminate Christmas as a national holiday?

People who want every religious element removed from anything remotely related to government are nothing but self-serving idiots with no sense of national identity or history who are mostly interested in being jackasses.  Frankly, I'd rather the federal government not waste its time and money worrying about this sort of thing (not that they should be spending the time and money figuring out how to work it in, either.)

But I find extreme anti-religious-symbol zeal quite offensive and ignorant.
Logged
"This f*cker is in wisconsin, reimero is from awesomeland." - Bobert

xolik

  • King of the Geekery
  • Hacker
  • ****
  • Coolio Points: +541/-25
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5176
  • HAY GUYS
    • View Profile
The Bill of Non-Rights
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2004, 12:37:56 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes
BUT, going out of your way TO put those things there interferes with the religious practices of those that may not believe that same exact way by essentially creating an "official endorsement" of that religion by government, engendering a preferred class of citizens among those that believe in that particular way, and a second class among those that may not.


What of people going out of their way to remove anything remotely religious from our society? Things of historical significance that just happen to be based on a particular faith. Like a little tiny, itty-bitty, cross on a state seal that was put there to represent the role missions had in founding a state. Does that count as an endorsement? There were a bunch of other, non-religious symbols on said seal that acknowledged other parts of our history as well. It's not like it was a giant cross and nothing else. If California was founded by Satanists, I'd expect an inverted pentagram on the state seal somewhere as well. If anything, it would be cooler looking...

There is quickly becoming no middle ground here. It's either the guys on one side who want to turn this country into a Theocracy or the other side that wants to make it hate crime to say "God bless" to somebody if that person sneezes. Look, like it or hate it Christians played a part in making this country. So did Jews. So did just about everybody else from all over. When it gets to the point when we try to hide and shame one group of people or drive them out of the arena of ideas based solely upon what that group believes in, then we have given up everything that the founders worked so hard to create.

One more thing that's been bugging me...the Ten Commandments? Not Christian. Jewish, thank you very much. Do Christians claim to follow them? Sure. Did Christ pull them out of his rear and hand them to the disciples as some new great thing? Well, I wasn't there personally, but I'd say no. To imply that the whole Ten Commandments thing is an exclusive thing only to Christians is grossly mistaken.

**edited becuase running a spell check before posting is hard.**
Logged
Barium: What you do if CPR fails.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
[The Fade^C Compound]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Pages: [1] 2 3