Topic: C'mon, Obama (Read 14598 times)

Joe Sixpack · « **on:** March 09, 2009, 07:07:56 PM »

Quote

"promoting science isn't just about providing resources - it is also about protecting free and open inquiry. It is about letting scientists like those here today do their jobs, free from manipulation or coercion, and listening to what they tell us, even when it's inconvenient - especially when it's inconvenient. It is about ensuring that scientific data is never distorted or concealed to serve a political agenda - and that we make scientific decisions based on facts, not ideology. "

A beautiful statement, all well and good.

Except that he just got through saying

Quote

"And we will ensure that our government never opens the door to the use of cloning for human reproduction. It is dangerous, profoundly wrong, and has no place in our society, or any society."

Isn't that statement based on ideology and not facts? I admit that human cloning is somewhat disturbing, but dangerous and profoundly wrong? On what grounds? It took me about 5 seconds to think of legitimate science that human cloning could further (and about 5 more to imagine a society with a place for it), I'm sure people whose job it is could do better. For the sake of America, cut the crap.

xolik · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2009, 07:25:41 PM »

The Earth is severely underpopulated. We need to clone more humans and fast. Plus think of all the new registered Democrats we can make!

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2009, 07:28:12 PM »

uh... I am arguing for clones, or at least not demonizing the whole area of "inquiry".

xolik · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2009, 09:31:12 PM »

Guess I can't say that the idea of growing humans in a lab is all that appealing to me. A little freaky. Yeah. Besides, why do we need clones when we have people spitting out eight kids like a human Pez dispenser? Nothing wrong with researching the idea further. Maybe some examples of when human cloning could come in handy might help me out here and see what it is you're talking about.

RelandR · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:34:09 PM »

Backing up and trying again with a lost child maybe?

I dunno, the whole thing does seem creepy when thought of in the "growing people in the lab" frame
but I don't think that was near to what was/is being proposed.

Blatantly disposing the whole notion however, sounds more like a political balance chip.

... Kudos to B.O. for lifting Bushblocks to stem cell research though.

jeee · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2009, 04:56:28 AM »

The whole clone issue is a thin line. Cloning a person exactly like the original is a no go area for me. But if they are able to reproduce certain parts of the body it is interesting.

Say you lost a finger or a toe due to an accident. Then they can grow you a new one. Failing kidneys, bad knees.......

It should stop at brains though because they define the personality.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2009, 09:15:22 AM »

The point is not whether human cloning is creepy or not (it is). It's whether Obama is being a fucking hypocrite by saying we're going to make scientific decisions based on facts and not ideology, and then saying that human cloning is profoundly wrong, which is an ideological statement, not a fact-based one.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2009, 09:17:46 AM »

Kind of like Obama saying that we're not going to take rash action regarding the economy, then pushing through a pork-filled spending bill through a Congress controlled by his party?

jeee · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2009, 09:46:30 AM »

Quote from: Joe Sixpack on March 10, 2009, 09:15:22 AM

The point is not whether human cloning is creepy or not (it is). It's whether Obama is being a fucking hypocrite by saying we're going to make scientific decisions based on facts and not ideology, and then saying that human cloning is profoundly wrong, which is an ideological statement, not a fact-based one.

Ok,

But cloning being profoundly wrong can be a fact or an opinion and is therefor not an ideology perse.

ivan · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2009, 09:56:42 AM »

Quote from: RelandR on March 09, 2009, 10:34:09 PM

Blatantly disposing the whole notion however, sounds more like a political balance chip.

Vespertine · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2009, 12:04:11 PM »

Quote from: jeee on March 10, 2009, 09:46:30 AM

Ok,

But cloning being profoundly wrong can be a fact or an opinion and is therefor not an ideology perse.

I disagree. Cloning being "profoundly wrong (or right)" is purely a matter of opinion, not a fact.

dcrog · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2009, 02:00:50 PM »

Quote from: Vespertine on March 10, 2009, 12:04:11 PM

I disagree. Cloning being "profoundly wrong (or right)" is purely a matter of opinion, not a fact.

Didn't we learn anything from the Asgard's? They practically cloned themselves out of existence.

ivan · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2009, 02:41:01 PM »

The loss of genitals was most tragic.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2009, 03:17:40 PM »

Yes it's a hypocritical statement. But clones will not be an exact replica, because the organism will contain the mitochondrial DNA of the donor egg and the nuclear DNA of the clonee. Unless we're talking about using an ova from the clonee and a somatic cell from the clonee. As for growing in the lab, this is a long way off, if even possible. A prospective clone would require an ova, somatic cell DNA of the clonee, and a uterus in which to implant via current IVF procedures. In a lab, they can't get the embryo to progress past the blastocyst stage.

Wunderkind · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2009, 03:46:27 PM »

Quote from: Joe Sixpack on March 10, 2009, 09:15:22 AM

The point is not whether human cloning is creepy or not (it is). It's whether Obama is being a fucking hypocrite by saying we're going to make scientific decisions based on facts and not ideology, and then saying that human cloning is profoundly wrong, which is an ideological statement, not a fact-based one.

Yes.
It sounds to me like Obama is being a fucking hypocrite. I'm not surprised though, because the poor fuck is a politician.

Quote from: jeee on March 10, 2009, 04:56:28 AM

.......

It should stop at brains though because they define the personality.

At this point, this sounds like a wonderful idea because I would like to give someone a new brain for a Christmas gift. I want a red bow with the green holly wrapping paper. Although, I would settle for an old fashion lobotomy with a rusted plumbing pipe.

dcrog · « **Reply #15 on:** March 10, 2009, 04:29:26 PM »

Quote from: ivan on March 10, 2009, 02:41:01 PM

The loss of genitals was most tragic.

<shudders>

Most assuredly.

Quote from: Wunderkind on March 10, 2009, 03:46:27 PM

At this point, this sounds like a wonderful idea because I would like to give someone a new brain for a Christmas gift. I want a red bow with the green holly wrapping paper. Although, I would settle for an old fashion lobotomy with a rusted plumbing pipe.

Are you still searching, or would this be an interviewer?

Wunderkind · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2009, 09:56:22 PM »

Quote from: dcrog on March 10, 2009, 04:29:26 PM

Are you still searching, or would this be an interviewer?

I am still searching for a job, but this particular person is actually a personal aquaintence.

Clear_Runway · « **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2009, 05:26:44 PM »

the problem with human cloning is that clonig has an enormously high failure rate - almost all of the "clonees" die, whether that be immediately or in a few years to to genetic flaws.

still, this isn't exactly the only time Obama has subtly changed his position

Wunderkind · « **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2009, 06:26:35 PM »

Quote from: Clear_Runway on March 25, 2009, 05:26:44 PM

the problem with human cloning is that clonig has an enormously high failure rate - almost all of the "clonees" die, whether that be immediately or in a few years to to genetic flaws.

still, this isn't exactly the only time Obama has subtly changed his position

Subtly?

There was nothing subtle about that. I wouldn't call it a change in views either. It was jsut a contradiction and a pretty obvious one too.

Also,
Who are you?

Clear_Runway · « **Reply #19 on:** March 26, 2009, 04:15:11 PM »

"subtly" is sarcasm, sorry for not clarifying that. Obama just flip-flops like crazy and nobody even cares.

I'm just, you know, somebody. nobody in particular

Vespertine · « **Reply #20 on:** March 26, 2009, 04:17:49 PM »

Just so I know...being a flip-flopper is bad always, or just when you don't agree with the position in question? Also, when is it flip-flopping instead of just changing your mind (or even learning something you didn't know before that causes you to change your stance about something)?

ivan · « **Reply #21 on:** March 26, 2009, 04:51:27 PM »

Quote from: Vespertine on March 26, 2009, 04:17:49 PM

Just so I know...being a flip-flopper is bad always, or just when you don't agree with the position in question? Also, when is it flip-flopping instead of just changing your mind (or even learning something you didn't know before that causes you to change your stance about something)?

I don't know... I keep going back and forth on that.

Clear_Runway · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2009, 05:08:36 PM »

Quote from: Vespertine on March 26, 2009, 04:17:49 PM

Just so I know...being a flip-flopper is bad always, or just when you don't agree with the position in question? Also, when is it flip-flopping instead of just changing your mind (or even learning something you didn't know before that causes you to change your stance about something)?

its bad if you do it for political reasons.

if you've got an opinion, stick to it!

ivan · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2009, 05:11:13 PM »

Quote from: Clear_Runway on March 26, 2009, 05:08:36 PM

its bad if you do it for political reasons.

if you've got an opinion, stick to it!

What if you stick to your opinion for political reasons, because you don't want to be accused of being a flip-flopper?

Sticking to opinions is kinda what got us into Iraq.

Clear_Runway · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2009, 05:33:33 PM »

I amend: Stick to it, unless you genuinely change your mind.

News:

Recent Forum Posts

Shout Box

Author Topic: C'mon, Obama (Read 14598 times)