Topic: *Not* an abortion thread (Read 11569 times)

Joe Sixpack · « **on:** June 02, 2009, 08:56:40 AM »

I heard this on the radio this morning from a pro-life (or anti-choice, as they like to say) advocate speaking on the shooting of Dr. George Tiller. I paraphrase: "If the Christian religion is true, then abortion is murder". Can someone fill me in on the "logic" behind that statement? From a purely scholarly perspective, I don't think the Bible has anything to say on the matter as it is a fairly new invention. Please try to stay on topic for at least the first five posts

12AX7 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 02, 2009, 09:20:14 AM »

Religion not logical? This is new to you?

xolik · « **Reply #2 on:** June 02, 2009, 09:37:54 AM »

Quote from: Joe Sixpack on June 02, 2009, 08:56:40 AM

I paraphrase: "If the Christian religion is true, then abortion is murder".

This is such loaded bullshit it's not even funny. The Christian faith is based upon belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and salvation bought for us by his death on the cross. So from the quoted statement above, if I don't agree that abortion is murder, then the divinity of Christ and his sacrifice is now all a filthy lie? What the ever lovin' fuck?

NO TRUE SCOTSMAN

I swear, I want to cockpunch people who say such things. Yeah, it's not very Christlike to cockpunch people but then again, He Himself may have done it a few times but the translators probably just left it out.

"Lo, verilly, the Son of God went forth to the money-changers in the temple and, having overturned their tables, proceeded to administer the Divine Cockpunch to all who were naughty in his sight."

mryellow · « **Reply #3 on:** June 02, 2009, 10:27:29 AM »

This is not yet the 6th post, so I apologize if I go off-topic... but isn't it in somewhere in that Bible that one should not murder other people and that only God can judge whether what people do is right of wrong and no human has any business in making that (rather permanent) call on His behalf? (God, *pun intended* wouldn't the world be a different place if that could be agreed upon) Therefore, you could argue that the murderer behaved in a non-Christian way and according to his own believes, can look forward to a nice long holiday to a place where the sun does not shine but it does tend to get very hot... for all of eternity.

I should point out that I am not religious. But I can use the same mind tricks right?

Wunderkind · « **Reply #4 on:** June 02, 2009, 11:05:17 AM »

Quote from: Joe Sixpack on June 02, 2009, 08:56:40 AM

Can someone fill me in on the "logic" behind that statement?

No.

Quote from: mryellow on June 02, 2009, 10:27:29 AM

This is not yet the 6th post, so I apologize if I go off-topic... but isn't it in somewhere in that Bible that one should not murder other people and that only God can judge whether what people do is right of wrong and no human has any business in making that (rather permanent) call on His behalf? (God, *pun intended* wouldn't the world be a different place if that could be agreed upon) Therefore, you could argue that the murderer behaved in a non-Christian way and according to his own believes, can look forward to a nice long holiday to a place where the sun does not shine but it does tend to get very hot... for all of eternity.

I should point out that I am not religious. But I can use the same mind tricks right?

Capital punishment is a sin and murder too then. Every state than practices the death sentence is a sinful state!

Chiro Omicron · « **Reply #5 on:** June 02, 2009, 11:09:13 AM »

Quote from: mryellow on June 02, 2009, 10:27:29 AM

This is not yet the 6th post, so I apologize if I go off-topic... but isn't it in somewhere in that Bible that one should not murder other people and that only God can judge whether what people do is right of wrong and no human has any business in making that (rather permanent) call on His behalf?

Well, no. What it says is that none of us are able to judge a person, not that we're not able to judge a person's actions. It ties into the whole 'love the sinner, hate the sin' thing.

xolik · « **Reply #6 on:** June 02, 2009, 12:29:29 PM »

I'm not sure if it's in Acts or not, I'll have to look, but we have full rights to judge members of our own congregation. Don't give me this 'oh brother so-and-so went apeshit and shot up a bunch of people, whelp who are we to say he's a bad man?' bullcrap.

Fun fact: The Bible often contradicts itself!

mryellow · « **Reply #7 on:** June 02, 2009, 12:42:56 PM »

Quote

Capital punishment is a sin and murder too then. Every state than practices the death sentence is a sinful state!

Well, it is all semantics isn't it? Capital punishment, murder, manslaugher, taking out the enemy in combat. Ending someone else's life. The only difference is a moral one. Whether or not it is a sin is a religious question and that is a separate issue. I mean, I am already a sinner regardless of my actions simply because I do not subscribe to any religion. But from a personal standpoint, I do believe a death sentence is morally wrong. Yet I hate having to pay all those taxes and keeping someone alive in jail for the rest of his life does cost a lot of MY money...

Quote

Well, no. What it says is that none of us are able to judge a person, not that we're not able to judge a person's actions. It ties into the whole 'love the sinner, hate the sin' thing.

Thanks, that is a difference. But is one justified to take certain actions, based on perceived 'wrong' actions of others? I think that's the whole point. Everybody thinks they are right. That's why we have laws. It's not great (the whole majority/minority thing), but it's better than the religious judge, jury & executioner system?

Chiro Omicron · « **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2009, 01:02:50 PM »

Quote from: mryellow on June 02, 2009, 12:42:56 PM

Thanks, that is a difference. But is one justified to take certain actions, based on perceived 'wrong' actions of others?

Yeah! I'm not gonna go on a camping trip with a serial killer!

Quote

...the religious judge, jury & executioner system?

Which one's that?

xolik · « **Reply #9 on:** June 02, 2009, 01:04:14 PM »

Quote from: Chiro Omicron on June 02, 2009, 01:02:50 PM

Which one's that?

Fundie Islam.

12AX7 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 02, 2009, 04:13:49 PM »

Quote from: xolik on June 02, 2009, 01:04:14 PM

Fundie Islam.

Careful now, Joe and Ves will brook none of that. Please keep your disparaging remarks confined to Christianity.

mryellow · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2009, 12:25:43 AM »

Quote

Quote
...the religious judge, jury & executioner system?

Which one's that? undecided

I suppose I could have clarified that I mean that as a figure of speech, not so much real practise (not anymore anyway).
But still, it does not sit right with me. There are murdering lunatics everywhere, but to spout pro-life banner when the body is not even in the ground, that's low. That's like legitimising the murder and might encourage new ones, even if they say otherwise.

I never quite understood what is wrong with "live and let live". If one is against abortion, don't ever get one yourself (including in the horrible situation where you get raped and pregnant as a result). Respect for that, really. But allow other people a different choice. Even if you think it is the wrong one. What ever gave them the idea that they ought to choose for others? Disagreeing with others and trying to understand their position (and who knows, mellow up or even change position yourself) is what makes life interesting.

Chiro Omicron · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2009, 02:39:27 AM »

If you perceive something as a moral evil, you're probably not going to be happy with 'live and let live'. I mean, what's wrong with 'live and let live' where slavery or rape or murder is concerned?

mryellow · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2009, 04:53:32 AM »

Well, that's taking it a bit literally isn't it? I mean it in a libertarian kind of way: "each individual should be free to do as he or she pleases so long as he or she does not harm others." This obviously excludes slavery, rape & murder.

Chiro Omicron · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2009, 04:58:13 AM »

Some people do consider the unborn an other, though.

mryellow · « **Reply #15 on:** June 03, 2009, 05:06:13 AM »

Sure, and I respect that. It's worth a debate. But not murder.

Probie · « **Reply #16 on:** June 03, 2009, 05:22:18 AM »

I think the only problem with the 'live and let live' scenario with anti-choice people is that they think you are murdering someone, so they don't want you to carry on with your business of aborting your unborn child because to them you aren't playing by the rules, you are hurting people, or rather a person.

Therefore the

Quote

This obviously excludes slavery, rape & murder.

gets called into play they can't live and let live. So they start shooting people and setting fire to doctors and all, which is fucking rich when you think of there moral motives.

Joe: I'd imagine that it ties in with the sixth commandment "You shall not murder". It's a life, therefore taking it is murder.

I'd break it down like this, a woman's egg is living cells, but by not fertilising it you aren't committing murder but allowing the natural course of its duration as living. If you use a condom you are preventing its continuation*, similar case with sperm. If however, the egg was fertilized and then the woman was to abort or take the morning after pill then that is actively killing the cells that are alive and THAT is classed as murder (in the eyes of SOME catholic people and probably other religions too).

Having said that, although I worry about the moral implications of abortion and what affects it has on the terminators mental state I am very much pro-choice.

*There are arguments that this in itself is a sin, I went to a catholic school, my chemistry teacher has 7 children and had never used contraception. We argued A LOT.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2009, 09:50:05 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on June 02, 2009, 04:13:49 PM

Careful now, Joe and Ves will brook none of that. Please keep your disparaging remarks confined to Christianity.

Idiots and jerks should be outed as such regardless of their religion, 12. It is generalizations and falsehoods I will not brook.

Vespertine · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2009, 10:52:27 AM »

Quote from: Joe Sixpack on June 03, 2009, 09:50:05 AM

Idiots and jerks should be outed as such regardless of their religion, 12. It is generalizations and falsehoods I will not brook.

CONCUR!!!

And to expand on this theme, I have no problem with xolik naming fundie Islam. Because he put the 'fundie' in there, he'll get no argument from me.

Vespertine · « **Reply #19 on:** June 03, 2009, 10:57:00 AM »

Quote from: Probie on June 03, 2009, 05:22:18 AM

<snip>
Having said that, although I worry about the moral implications of abortion and what affects it has on the terminators mental state I am very much pro-choice.
<snip>

Please understand that I'm not intending to be a bitch when i say, "Who are you to worry about the mental state of someone who has an abortion?" Have you ever stopped to think that for many many women, the only thing they feel about it is a profound sense of relief? Maybe I'm just being touchy about it, but your phrasing implies a sense of superiority; as though a woman who wants/has an abortion is incapable of dealing with that decision.

Probie · « **Reply #20 on:** June 03, 2009, 11:04:02 AM »

Quote from: Vespertine on June 03, 2009, 10:57:00 AM

Please understand that I'm not intending to be a bitch when i say, "Who are you to worry about the mental state of someone who has an abortion?" Have you ever stopped to think that for many many women, the only thing they feel about it is a profound sense of relief? Maybe I'm just being touchy about it, but your phrasing implies a sense of superiority; as though a woman who wants/has an abortion is incapable of dealing with that decision.

Maybe you are being touche, because that's not what it means at all.

Edit: You know, it seems you read a lot of what I write in an extremely negative way. I'm not entirely sure why. But being concerned for other people is a good thing. I don't think that I am superior to other woman, I have just not HAD an abortion, so i don't need to worry about my emotional state after having one. Of course there are women who would only feel relief afterwards and thats great. But there are other women who have been profoundly effected by the experience and I know it can be very damaging, so for that reason I am concerned and for no other.

Furthermore I would ask that if you have any problems interpreting what I am writing you would do me the kindness of letting me explain it rather than telling me what it implies.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #21 on:** June 03, 2009, 12:08:42 PM »

I would guess that almost everyone would rather there were no abortions, or rather, that they were not necessary. It is a sad thing. But sometimes they are necessary and it's just a question of whether or not you are presumptuous enough to think that you can make that decision for someone else. Not that you are, just that that's what it comes down to.

Probie · « **Reply #22 on:** June 03, 2009, 12:23:57 PM »

fo sho.

No one has the right to chose for someone else.

Chiro Omicron · « **Reply #23 on:** June 03, 2009, 12:37:00 PM »

I think some of you are missing the main point of the argument, though. Obviously a person has a right to life, regardless of whether their parents think terminating them is necessary or not. But when does a human life become a human person? Is it when the child is born, when the foetus is feasible, when the body is fully formed, when the nueral system starts firing up, when the two gametes form a unique human organism?

And if we can't reasonably tell when a human life is classified as a human person, do we allow people to make their own choice whether to have abortions or not, or do we outlaw abortions because we don't know? If we can tell when a human life becomes a human person, is terminating the life before it becomes a person classed as preleptic murder or not?

It's an issue that totally baffles me, but I know it's not as simple as either side makes out.

Edit: And there's also the question of whether a mother is obliged to bear her child or not, but not many people seem to think she doesn't.

xolik · « **Reply #24 on:** June 03, 2009, 01:03:35 PM »

Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!

News:

Recent Forum Posts

Shout Box

Author Topic: *Not* an abortion thread (Read 11569 times)

12AX7

12AX7

Author Topic: Not an abortion thread (Read 11569 times)