Topic: *Not* an abortion thread (Read 11570 times)

Wunderkind · « **Reply #25 on:** June 03, 2009, 01:25:28 PM »

Until I give birth to it, it remains as part of my body, alive or dead, but an apendage of my body. As part of my body I can peirce, tattoo, and cut if off if I choose. When it stops being part of my body then you can tell me what I or any other woman has the right to do with it. It is not separate from me until after the abilical cord is cut. Until that point, it's my blood, my air, my nervous system supporting the little fucker it's my decision what happens to it.

And that's my opinion.

mryellow · « **Reply #26 on:** June 03, 2009, 01:35:40 PM »

Good point Chiro. I don't know, probably nobody knows. But I do know that I cannot consider a clump of living cells to be a person. The medical limit is 22 weeks I think, I would not stretch it that far personally. In my view, abortion should be done early or not at all. But I don't have to make the call for others.

As much as I respect pro-life opinions, I think things change dramatically when it is no longer an academic problem, when judging from a distance will not longer suffice. What if you or someone very close to you gets raped & pregnant as a result? Any one is entitled to his or her opinion and I don't expect anyone's to change, but I would like to believe that when it matters, human compassion while come to the fore front. Not some misguided dogma. And that's what really matters.

Wunderkind · « **Reply #27 on:** June 03, 2009, 01:37:04 PM »

Quote from: mryellow on June 03, 2009, 01:35:40 PM

... I would like to believe that when it matters, human compassion while come to the fore front...

Prepare to be disappointed.

xolik · « **Reply #28 on:** June 03, 2009, 02:16:19 PM »

Quote from: mryellow on June 03, 2009, 01:35:40 PM

As much as I respect anti-choice opinions

You've just inspired me to start calling "Pro-choice" people "Anti-life" instead.

Quote from: Wunderkind on June 03, 2009, 01:37:04 PM

Prepare to be disappointed.

^ Thisx1000

Min · « **Reply #29 on:** June 03, 2009, 02:21:34 PM »

First off, there aren't many sane people who think that murdering this doctor is a good thing. Pro-lifers made it very clear that they don't condone it. The people who did it and the people who think it's great that someone did it are morons and everyone who is pro-life shouldn't be lumped in with them.

As for whether or not a fetus is a life...my opinion...you have finger prints? you have a heartbeat, a brain, you're wrapping your fingers around your toes and your nose? I don't care that you're less than an inch big, you're alive. That's at nine weeks. And stuff like that happens at week one and develops very rapidly. I know lots disagree with me and that's fine. I, myself, don't see how I can think anything other than that it's a life immediately. It's such a sticky topic. I don't think it's right, but I can't see myself telling others what to do. I like to avoid abortion debates because I don't have a clear stand on it.

I think one reason that people don't think it's life is that when a child is born and dies, there is a funeral, a burial...a big deal. When a woman miscarries, there is no funeral, no public grieving. So it's easy to think of it as not a baby. In fact, when a woman miscarries before 12 weeks (which is staggeringly common), only the people closest to her know she was even pregnant. So many people don't even hear about it. I find that interesting.

mryellow · « **Reply #30 on:** June 03, 2009, 02:21:59 PM »

Quote

Prepare to be disappointed.

I did say "would like to believe"

Quote

You've just inspired me to start calling "Pro-choice" people "Anti-life" instead.

You are right... in my defense, I am not a native speaker and no derogatory* meaning was intended. I apologize. Post edited.

* yes I did have to look that up.

Vespertine · « **Reply #31 on:** June 03, 2009, 06:20:07 PM »

In an attempt to get this back on Joe's topic, I thought I would add something interesting that IS contained in the Bible (as relates to pregnancy termination).

Exodus 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Now, I find it interesting that the only mention (that I know of in the entire Bible) of punishment for "killing of an unborn" calls for a fine. I mean, hell, this is even Old Testament law where death sentences are prescribed like candy for even relatively minor offenses (e.g. mixing of fabrics). And yet, causing the death of an unborn is punishable by a fine....go figure.

12AX7 · « **Reply #32 on:** June 04, 2009, 12:25:24 AM »

Quote from: Vespertine on June 03, 2009, 10:52:27 AM

And to expand on this theme, I have no problem with xolik naming fundie Islam. Because he put the 'fundie' in there, he'll get no argument from me.

Because it's JUST the fundies that are violent, right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7894721.stm

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07232008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/an_american_honor_killing_121118.htm

http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=8412

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4144583.html

http://sheikyermami.com/2008/12/24/violent-muslim-riots-in-sweden-spread-to-stockholm/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31014239/

**edit - to take out one video link; the video wasn't what the link and site said it was. Sorry for the discrepancy.
**edit - ok, and the Times UK links.. they quit working.

12AX7 · « **Reply #33 on:** June 04, 2009, 07:15:15 AM »

My point isn't to aggravate you, Ves. See it this way for a second:

There's all these instances of violence fomented and committed by regular, run-of-the-mill Muslims (fundies, too, but we all agree to that), and not one single thread ( that I'm aware of ) about any of it. Nothing about the 136 beheadings and crucifixions this year alone so far in SAUDI ARABIA by the GOVERNMENT there. And Saudi Arabia is one of the most western-friendly Islamic nations there is. They aren't 'fundamentalists', radicals, "terrorists", or anything of the sort.
Abortion. Hmm. What do you imagine they would do upon finding THAT out? But NO ONE says a word. Not a word. In fact; when someone DOES say something about it (ME); they are called 'racist', bigoted, and retarded. As if a religion of such nature is defendable.

But yet, here we have ONE dude shooting an abortion doctor. NO Christian groups are condoning it, none are asking for clemency for the man. In fact, they were all horrified and SAID SO. But we have a thread starting out with an insulting attitude towards Christians/Christianity. Not about Christians "fundamentalists", or Christian "jihadists" or "radicals"; but about 'Christians"; based on this one dude who shot the doctor. I can also find more threads in this same theme; ie., "The Vatican is at it again", etc. Each thread generalizing about Christians.

Now, let me state that I don't consider myself a "Christian", I'm certainly not Jewish, not Hindu nor Buddist, nor any other organized religion. So I really don't care what gets espoused by whom about which religion. But I DO find it telling that when a thread such as this one comes up; concensus is usually the same. "Christians are loony." And when a thread such as I have started on Islam comes up, the religion and its followers are defended vehemently by the same people who slammed the Christians.

I just don't get it. Christians have tried to be peaceful and get along with most people (in recent times); although I resent their fiddling with laws, I haven't been threatened - directly or indirectly - nor has my way of life been targeted for destruction by any Christian or any Christian group. On the other hand, though they may be somewhat removed from my locale; I have heard and seen threats from Muslims (radicals AND regular people out rioting) to Westerners/Infidels and this way of life; and a few times they've made good on their threats. So I just don't get the disparity on this board. In fact, I would think you in particular would be more incensed about Women's situations under Islam and sharia law; which is being pushed to be installed in existing western countries, btw; than you would be about the Christians' abortion stance.

12AX7 · « **Reply #34 on:** June 04, 2009, 07:59:35 AM »

Quote from: Joe Sixpack on June 03, 2009, 09:50:05 AM

Idiots and jerks should be outed as such regardless of their religion, 12.

So where are these outing threads on the other religions? I couldn't find A N Y.

Quote from: Joe Sixpack on June 03, 2009, 09:50:05 AM

It is generalizations and falsehoods I will not brook.

Not to be argumentative; but isn't this entire thread based on the premise of a Christian point of view? That's a pretty big generalization.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #35 on:** June 04, 2009, 08:20:59 AM »

The thread is asking for some perspective on the statement of one guy.

12AX7 · « **Reply #36 on:** June 04, 2009, 08:35:46 AM »

Ok, my mistake then. I understood it to be asking for perspective on that "logic". It seems almost everyone else did as well.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #37 on:** June 04, 2009, 09:10:58 AM »

One guy's logic, who does self-identify as Christian.

reimero · « **Reply #38 on:** June 04, 2009, 09:46:16 AM »

Fun fact #1: Not only am I pro-life, I could be considered a (former) pro-life activist.
Fun fact #2: "Pro-life" and "anti-abortion" mean two different things. Pro-lifers are a subset of the anti-abortion crowd, but the two are technically NOT the same.
Fun fact #3: No true pro-lifer would EVER condone the killing of an abortionist. True pro-lifers believe in protecting life from conception until natural death (or, barring that, accidental death.)

This is an extremely difficult discussion to hold rationally, in no small part because the two sides can't even agree on the parameters of the debate (such as the question of when life even begins, the question of when personhood begins, and the question of when rights should kick in.) The other factor is that in a pregnancy in which abortion is on the table, both the mother and the fetus/unborn_child have an enormous stake, and the nature of the debate is such that there often are no win-win options. And that's really the hard part.

What saddens and angers me is that because the debate is so emotionally-charged, it's impossible to work toward common ground and toward a real, workable, lasting solution. And because the question of abortion is also tied with questions of morality, people who oppose abortion are far less likely to want to compromise. (Actually, that's a two-way street. I've also found that militant supporters of abortion rights are equally unwilling to compromise, particularly where regulation of abortion is concerned, because they see every regulation and restriction as an infringement on the right to choose.)

The point I'm trying to make is that this particular battleground is a perfect breeding ground for the likes of Scott Roeder or Randall Terry, who become so blinded with hatred about the issue that they lose sight of why they even fight for the issue. They justify killings and bombings on the basis of "how many unborn do we save with each killing or bombing?" (I'd be willing to bet that the correct answer to that question approaches zero, since there are usually other providers, and if you're willing to have the procedure done, you're probably willing to travel for it.) But in my book, they're as evil and as fundamentally wrong as Fred Phelps, possibly even more so.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #39 on:** June 04, 2009, 02:50:56 PM »

So performing a D'n'E or D'n'S on a woman carrying an anecepahalic or (insert various other anomalies here) rather than having the woman carry said anomaly to term and have it still born is immoral?

I ask because I know someone who 'terminated her pregancy' after the diagnostics showed no further development. I find it odd that said killer was a male who can't become pregnant nor face any such circumstance as listed above.

xolik · « **Reply #40 on:** June 04, 2009, 05:05:42 PM »

Look at what I've done. Mention 'Islam' and BAM.

Oy.

We've got abortion *not an abortion thread* and religion. Hell, let's get the trifecta in play here, shall we?

What do you think Obama hates more: Jesus or America?

12AX7 · « **Reply #41 on:** June 04, 2009, 06:06:57 PM »

Quote from: xolik on June 04, 2009, 05:05:42 PM

Look at what I've done. Mention 'Islam' and BAM.

If you are referring to my posts, they have nothing to do with you or your mention of Islam. I believe I laid out fairly clearly what I was on about.
Does this bother you in some way? That I protest that one relatively peaceful religion is constantly put down, and one relatively violent is constantly defended? Why is that? That seems to be a real problem here. You (a Christian) seemingly upset about what I've said about Islam; but not upset at all (it seems) over the remarks made about Christians/Christianity. Could you please explain this to me?

...or did you just forget </ troll> ?

xolik · « **Reply #42 on:** June 05, 2009, 12:25:59 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on June 04, 2009, 06:06:57 PM

If you are referring to my posts, they have nothing to do with you or your mention of Islam. I believe I laid out fairly clearly what I was on about.
Does this bother you in some way? That I protest that one relatively peaceful religion is constantly put down, and one relatively violent is constantly defended? Why is that? That seems to be a real problem here. You (a Christian) seemingly upset about what I've said about Islam; but not upset at all (it seems) over the remarks made about Christians/Christianity. Could you please explain this to me?

...or did you just forget </ troll> ?

If you think I'm upset about what you said over Islam, then you're looking WAAAAY too deep into my posts. And I believe if you look up some old posts of mine either here or at the old HN, you'll see me being quite the defender of Christianity when stupid shit like this gets pulled.

Calm down, no need to go cutting off people's heads.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #43 on:** June 05, 2009, 12:32:43 PM »

There you go, bashing the muslims again. Or was that the french....

xolik · « **Reply #44 on:** June 05, 2009, 12:49:53 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus on June 05, 2009, 12:32:43 PM

There you go, bashing the muslims again. Or was that the french....

French Muslims! Two birds, man, two birds....

pbsaurus · « **Reply #45 on:** June 05, 2009, 02:36:02 PM »

* pbsaurus runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off...

12AX7 · « **Reply #46 on:** June 05, 2009, 04:08:39 PM »

* 12AX7 gives xolik head back.

Clear_Runway · « **Reply #47 on:** June 12, 2009, 11:54:18 AM »

Christianity likes to err on the side of caution. the bible says not to kill people, and an unborn child may or may not be considered a person. Therefore, in order to minimize chances of sinning, abortion is looked at as murder. Simple as that.

no pro-lifers in their right mind wanted that doctor murdered - that would make them as bad as him.

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