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  • (January 12, 2023, 01:18:11 AM)
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Author Topic: Should blowing clean be mandatory?  (Read 15709 times)

BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2009, 10:01:46 PM »

Quote
Don’t you think this would lower even more the number of drunk ones you have to avoid?
No.  I don't.  People who want to break the law are going to break the law.  All you would do is create a market for someone to stand outside the bar and blow into tubes for people.  Or, a market for balloons that could simulate a blow... or whatever.  Drug laws have not reduced the amount of drug use and piss-testing hasn't guaranteed that the bus driver isn't high.  All it has done is create a market for bypassing the instituted tests.

Back to the point, though, what you're talking about would have to be enacted at the federal level.  There's no way a locality could force the auto manufacturers to install such an item.  Please provide for me source of the legislative authority for the federal government to enact such a policy.  Remember, the 9th and 10th amendment as you search.

Re: Clothing...
I'm required by local and state laws to cover specific parts of my body.  There is no federal law dictating decency (that I'm aware of).  I have no problem with localities mandating specific socially accepted norms via legislation.  However, there is no law requiring that I wear clothing on my own property so long as it can be reasonably assumed that I would not be seen by the casual passer-by.  That's how nudist camps work.  I have no problem with nudists.  I have no problem (personally) with nudity. Just as I have no problem with the Christian community that's being formed in Florida (the name of the town/city escapes me at the moment,) which requires all citizens to follow certain accepted Christian norms, I would have no problem with a town passing clothing optional or even nudity-required laws.
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2009, 10:37:55 PM »

People who want to break the law are going to break the law.
   *Of course they are. Hence the idea of stopping their cars from starting.

  All you would do is create a market for someone to stand outside the bar and blow into tubes for people.  Or, a market for balloons that could simulate a blow... or whatever. 
   Capitalism at it's finest. Yay.

Drug laws have not reduced the amount of drug use and piss-testing hasn't guaranteed that the bus driver isn't high.  All it has done is create a market for bypassing the instituted tests.
   This isn't aimed at reducing the amount of alcohol use/abuse; only to stop an alocohol-impaired person from ignition; which is what the curent law is already supposed to do. *See above.
   

Back to the point, though, what you're talking about would have to be enacted at the federal level.  There's no way a locality could force the auto manufacturers to install such an item.  Please provide for me source of the legislative authority for the federal government to enact such a policy.  Remember, the 9th and 10th amendment as you search.

  Why would it have to be a federal law?
 See: http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/seat-belt-usage
  at how seat belts and seat belt laws (State laws) came about. There is no federal seat belt law. Why would this not work the same way?

  From the link:
 Federal
  There is no federal seat belt law; such laws are left to the individual states. The U. S. Department of Transportation, through NHTSA, offers grant programs to states; in 2002, 48 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico shared a $44.4 million grant (Maine and Wyoming declined to take any grant money). Safety and public awareness campaigns are also conducted by NHTSA. Probably the best known is the series of print and broadcast advertisements that feature Vince and Larry, the crash test dummies.
  In 1998, Congress passed the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA-21), which includes grant money for states to initiate new seat belt laws, traffic enforcement programs, and child passenger protection and training activities.



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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2009, 10:47:59 PM »

Quote
Re: Clothing...
I'm required by local and state laws to cover specific parts of my body.  There is no federal law dictating decency (that I'm aware of).  I have no problem with localities mandating specific socially accepted norms via legislation.  However, there is no law requiring that I wear clothing on my own property so long as it can be reasonably assumed that I would not be seen by the casual passer-by.  That's how nudist camps work.  I have no problem with nudists.  I have no problem (personally) with nudity. Just as I have no problem with the Christian community that's being formed in Florida (the name of the town/city escapes me at the moment,) which requires all citizens to follow certain accepted Christian norms, I would have no problem with a town passing clothing optional or even nudity-required laws.
Rightrightright; I was just pointing out the discrepancy there, at how it's fine to have to wear clothes; but not fine to have to wear a seat belt, etc. I don't really have an argument about clothes, per se.
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Socrates

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2009, 07:05:20 AM »

Although I had nothing to add to the conversation (besides my opinion) I wanted to say that I appreciated reading the conversation.

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BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2009, 07:11:15 AM »

Seat belt use laws are state laws.  The federal government, however, mandates the installation of seat belts in all cars manufactured after 1964.  Let the market decide.

Now, if you'd like to install these devices in the cars and allow people to decide whether they want to blow first, I have no problem with that.  That way, if/when you get pulled over/in an accident, you could say, "Look, officer.  I blew clean to start my car." thereby removing any doubt as to one's sobriety.  
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2009, 09:12:20 AM »

Seat belt use laws are state laws.  The federal government, however, mandates the installation of seat belts in all cars manufactured after 1964.  Let the market decide.

   That was my point in the previous post. The Fed "lures" the states into passing the law; the auto manufacturers will comply if they want to sell their product in each state and be in compliance with state law. The feds don't really have to have anything to do with it; other than the incentive money; which I'd have rather had spent on this than a federal takeover of the automobile industry (GM).

Now, if you'd like to install these devices in the cars and allow people to decide whether they want to blow first, I have no problem with that.  That way, if/when you get pulled over/in an accident, you could say, "Look, officer.  I blew clean to start my car." thereby removing any doubt as to one's sobriety.  
   That pretty much defeats the whole point; and is really not a bright idea. After the accident, the victims are already dead or injured. If you aren't drunk; you'd have no reason to argue sobriety in the first place. If you ARE; you should'nt have been able to start the car and get it on the road; blowing clean or not - that's what the current law is supposed to prevent.


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BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2009, 09:19:45 AM »

Laws are not capable of preventing behavior.  Which, I suppose, is the crux of your argument.
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BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2009, 09:23:29 AM »

Quote
That pretty much defeats the whole point; and is really not a bright idea. After the accident, the victims are already dead or injured. If you aren't drunk; you'd have no reason to argue sobriety in the first place. If you ARE; you shouldn't have been able to start the car and get it on the road; blowing clean or not - that's what the current law is supposed to prevent.
Under your proposed basis of solution, how would you prevent distracted driving, which, in reality, is more dangerous - because it can happen to anyone, not just those who choose to drink before getting behind the wheel?  I suspect that distracted driving or driving while fatigued is at least as common, if not more common, than drunk driving.  There are laws against those things, too.
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2009, 09:35:23 AM »


   If there were such a device; I might be interested in it. There is not, currently, to keep people from being distracted, etc. There IS, however a device that can sense alcohol, and keep a car from being started. To not use such a technology in an effort to save lives and money is paramount to negligence on part of lawmakers. It is not an undue burden on society or an individual, and attempts nothing further than enforcing current law.
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2009, 09:38:01 AM »

Laws are not capable of preventing behavior.  Which, I suppose, is the crux of your argument.
No, they are not; and no, it isn't. It has little to do with preventing behavior. It has everything to do with securing a deadly weapon from an intoxicated person. They can still behave as they please.


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BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2009, 09:39:20 AM »

Oh... like the way that they keep guns away from convicted felons.  Got it.
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2009, 09:42:55 AM »


   Hmm. Nope. Felons can't have guns period. You can certainly own as many vehicles as you like; even drive them on private property with no sensor.
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BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2009, 09:47:53 AM »

There IS, however a device that can sense alcohol, and keep a car from being started. To not use such a technology in an effort to save lives and money is paramount to negligence on part of lawmakers. It is not an undue burden on society or an individual, and attempts nothing further than enforcing current law.
Such a device presumes guilt (intoxication) until the user proves that they're sober.  That's the antithesis of our way of life.

I suspect that if such a device were OEM, and legislation were passed to require one to activate the device via one's own breath before the vehicle could be started, then they'd also pass legislation that would make it illegal to disable said device.  If that's the case, then they will have infringed on my right to do with my property (the automobile) what I please while doing so out of others' harms way. I.e., on my own property.

Quote
Hmm. Nope. Felons can't have guns period.
Whew... thank God.  I was afraid that there were felons out there who had acquired guns despite the laws and systems in place making it impossible for them to acquire one.
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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2009, 09:57:38 AM »

Not to muddy the waters any further here, but I think this argument hinges on the outcome of a different (but related) argument:  is driving an automobile a right or a privilege?

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, assuming that driving is a privilege, and that the application of any requirement to exercise said privilege is applied equally under the law, is an OEM sobriety-detection appliance a "presumption of guilt", any more than a behind-the-wheel road test requirement for licensure?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 09:59:27 AM by Demosthenes »
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BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2009, 09:58:26 AM »

On my property, or on public roads?
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2009, 09:59:07 AM »

Such a device presumes guilt (intoxication) until the user proves that they're sober.  

   It presumes nothing of the sort. Such a device presumes you intend to start the car; and is in place to be sure you can't if you are drunk. It doesn't presume guilt of anything.




I suspect that if such a device were OEM, and legislation were passed to require one to activate the device via one's own breath before the vehicle could be started, then they'd also pass legislation that would make it illegal to disable said device.  If that's the case, then they will have infringed on my right to do with my property (the automobile) what I please while doing so out of others' harms way. I.e., on my own property.

   Like it's illegal to remove catalytic converters, illegal to drive on the road with no tag, illegal to drive on the road with bald tires, illegal to drive on the road with no headlights; all of which you can do on your own property legally. We already went over this. It's not that difficult a concept.



Whew... thank God.  I was afraid that there were felons out there who had acquired guns despite the laws and systems in place making it impossible for them to acquire one.
  You were? HAHA! Good for you.
   So what was your point here? That because they can still get guns; we should just drop any efforts to stop it?
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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2009, 10:00:22 AM »

On my property, or on public roads?

I think we can all agree that operating an automobile on your private property is nobody's business but your own, as long as you're not harming anyone.
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BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2009, 10:02:48 AM »

I think we can all agree that operating an automobile on your private property is nobody's business but your own, as long as you're not harming anyone.
And, if I'm required to blow into a tube to prove my sobriety in order to start my automobile on my own property, my rights have been infringed.  Period.
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2009, 10:04:04 AM »


   But you are free to disable it on your own property, remember? Just please, be sure to hook it back up when you run to Wal-Mart.
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2009, 10:10:02 AM »


  Thanks for the move, Demo. I would've started in here if I knew it would take off debate-style. I figured it'd fizzle quick, lol.
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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2009, 10:13:56 AM »

I figured it'd fizzle quick, lol.

That's what she said.
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2009, 10:17:10 AM »


   But she was WRONG!
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BizB

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2009, 10:32:41 AM »

If the system can be disabled as you suggest, all you've done is increased the number of laws broken by the drunk driver.  There are already laws prohibiting operating a motor vehicle with a BAC of .08 (in most states).  If a driver suspects that he may not be able to start the car by blowing into the tube because he has had some drinks, and he bypasses the system to start the car - which many people would do - then the device is useless other than as a tool for an officer to use in order to determine sobriety.  And, if a driver has bypassed the system to start the car, and there is a subsequent accident, is he presumed intoxicated because he didn't blow to start the car?  I think I could probably argue 5th amendment infringement there.
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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2009, 10:39:02 AM »

Actually, I still question the effectiveness of this.

While it might actually dissuade a few drunk drivers, the habitual offenders (at least anecdotally in my state) tend to be idiots with 10 or 12 DWI offenses under their belts, don't even have a driver's license anymore at all, and keep offending. 

While I agree with the notion of interlocks in concept (and while an inconvenience I wouldn't want on my vehicle, I consider driving to be a privilege, so as long as it's evenly applied, I don't consider them to be a violation of individual rights), I don't think they're practical, nor would blanket use of them be very effective in the long run at significantly reducing alcohol related injuries and fatalities on our roads and highways.

I think that, as Biz pointed out with gun laws, law-abiding citizens who only drive sober already would simply be annoyed and inconvenienced by such an interlock, and those who habitually drive drunk -- arguably the ones who are the most dangerous ones out there to begin with -- would simply disable, bypass, or otherwise circumvent such interlocks and continue to offend.

While I do see reducing some of the "casual" offenders being a realistic possibility, I don't see that as a big enough benefit to justify the cumbersome implementation of something like this across the board.
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12AX7

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Re: Should blowing clean be mandatory?
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2009, 11:19:56 AM »

If the system can be disabled as you suggest, all you've done is increased the number of laws broken by the drunk driver.  There are already laws prohibiting operating a motor vehicle with a BAC of .08 (in most states).  If a driver suspects that he may not be able to start the car by blowing into the tube because he has had some drinks, and he bypasses the system to start the car - which many people would do - then the device is useless other than as a tool for an officer to use in order to determine sobriety.  And, if a driver has bypassed the system to start the car, and there is a subsequent accident, is he presumed intoxicated because he didn't blow to start the car?  I think I could probably argue 5th amendment infringement there.

   Nowhere did I say it should be easy to disable. I only said you can, legally, on your own property. It should not be so easy to disable that an impaired individual could do it standing outside the bar in the parking lot. You could compare that to a catalytic converter; they are inaccessible and non-servicable for most people; but you CAN take it off on your own property legally. On the roads, though, it must be in place and working. 

   As such; there most likely wouldn't be many people that would attempt to disable it. The ones that do (and are caught) are charged with disabling the device. If there is an accident; an officer is supposed to check for sobriety anyway; as drugs can impair one as well, and this does nothing for that. If he has you blow a breathalyzer and you're over limit, found to have disabled your sensor, and are involved in an accident; you should be charged with whatever crimes you've committed. DUI, disabling the device, and (if applicable) the accident. Obviously if you didn't cause the accident there's no charge on that; but again- if you're found to be intoxicated, or have disabled the device; you get charged.


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