Topic: Do I have a Lemon? (Read 17380 times)

Chris · « **on:** August 10, 2006, 10:34:41 AM »

For those of you who are unaware what a "Lemon" is, here is some background information on the subject.

I bought my car this time last year. It's a 2000 Ford Explorer XLS. When I bought it, it only had 55,000 miles on it, and was still under warranty. I even decided to get the extended warranty on it which covers most major parts on the car. Both the exterior and interior of this car are in pretty much perfect condition.

The car ran pretty well when I first got it. I had no complaints, everything seemed to work perfectly. Then about 3 weeks after I had it, stuff started breaking. The first thing that went wrong was the catalytic converter started falling apart. I got that fixed (After weeks of waiting for a part) with no charge. Then about the same time, a spark plug went bad, making the car sputter like there was no tomorrow. They fixed that with no charge as well.

I thought that was going to be it for a while. And boy was I wrong. After the first time washing it, I noticed paint started to flake. I called up my dealer and told him what was going on, and he ordered me some free touch up paint. Fine no problem. I fixed the area that was flaking.

Just recently I noticed a weird noise being emitted whenever I hit a bump or made a turn in the right manner. I didn't think much of it at first, but then it started to get worse. I was able to pin-point the noise to the steering housing under the car. This probably isn't a good thing, given that it has to do with steering, and if you lose steering you pretty much lose at life. I told them about this noise when I took my car in for routine work (Oil, etc.) and they said that there was nothing wrong with the car, and no noise was heard. To me, I think this means that they didn't even drive it anywhere because they were too busy that day.

Next, the car started making an unusual shaking sensation shortly after I noticed the noise from the steering components (Or around that location). This only happens when the car is in drive, and I'm starting to think that this is a problem with the drive train, or some other major part that is going to cost thousands if it isn't covered by their warranty.

To me, this is all too coincidental. As soon as I take the damn thing off their showroom floor it starts falling apart. So is this thing a lemon? Did I get jipped? Is this normal for a car with 60,000 miles on it?

12AX7 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2006, 11:16:16 AM »

No. It is NOT normal. Seriously look into your options about getting out of that deal if at all possible. If not... find you a mechanic you can trust (do NOT take them at face value or their word until you know you can safely) - this may take a visit to several different ones, but in the long run; when you find a good one who's not going to rip you off - you have someone on your side as long as you use them - for whatever vehicle you have in the future. That is a GREAT asset.
If you can't get out of this deal, let your mechanic (the one you pick out) have the work - he'll appreciate it, and if he's a good one; he'll have a few options for you other than "We're gonna have to replace the entire subsystem, yep."
It does sound like you found a sour one, man. Sorry to hear it.

12AX7 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2006, 11:28:34 AM »

As far as the shaking, do you feel it in the steering wheel primarily? Or do you feel it with your butt (in the seat)? That sorta give you an idea which direction (front - rear) the shaking problem might lie. Front = steering wheel mainly.
Check your tires. Most of the time any shaking you notice like that has more to do with the tires/brakes. Does it shake the entire time you are rolling in the vehicle? When you get to a certain speed? Or does it only do it as you slow down? If it is only when you slow down, it could be brake dust build up on your rotors. Nothing really serious; you may need to change the brake pads.
If it shakes only while your rolling, it is more likely a tire issue. One could be off balance (no serious danger; but not a good thing);
or one may have developed a lump - caused by a fiber in the tread or wall breaking. A lot of dealers will use re-treads on used cars; look and see if all the tires are the same manufacturer, and seem to have the same amount of wear. Run your hand over the tread lightly; you may be able to feel a lump if one is present. Quick, easy fix - get new tires. (Yep; you'll have to - that condition will only get worse and could contribute to an accident).
That would be my starting point on the shaking issue; before I took to anyone to pay em. Good luck, chief.

Rico · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2006, 12:16:24 PM »

I won't pretend to know much about cars. The only experience I really had with them was back when I was a kid on the ranch, and even then it was diesels. These days it's motorcycle or walk, but an engine's an engine, I guess. Chris, it really sounds like you got a bum deal. Did you know the guy you bought it from? If one of my bikes started having those kinds of problems and I'd bought it from a dealer, I'd already be there in his office letting him know about it.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2006, 12:31:31 PM »

When the dealer sells you lemons, make lemonade!

Evonus · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2006, 01:47:10 PM »

Yeah, you got screwed. I would bring it back if it's still under warranty or sue. Because the shaking sounds more like it may be an axel than the steering wheel, and if an axel falls off that's pretty much the end of the car. But yeah, I'd ditch that bomb as fast as possible.

And PB, I don't think it works like that.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2006, 05:05:49 PM »

"When life gives you lemons, you squirt it into the eyes of the man who gave you the lemons until he gives you the oranges that you asked for!" - Bill McNeil, News Radio

Demosthenes · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2006, 05:36:41 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus on August 10, 2006, 12:31:31 PM

When the dealer sells you lemons, make lmaonade!

Vespertine · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2006, 07:36:30 PM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on August 10, 2006, 11:16:16 AM

No. It is NOT normal. <snip>

I don't know if that's true though. I mean, it is a Ford Explorer with 60k miles on it. Quite honestly, I've never heard anything decent about Fords lasting a long time.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2006, 07:56:36 PM »

We got rid of our '91 Exploder when it hit 120K because everything started failing. Donated it to the SPCA for the tax write-off.

dcrog · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2006, 10:04:38 PM »

Quote from: Vespertine on August 10, 2006, 07:36:30 PM

I don't know if that's true though. I mean, it is a Ford Explorer with 60k miles on it. Quite honestly, I've never heard anything decent about Fords lasting a long time.

It's too late at night for me to get into this argument. Plus I've had too much to drink.

But Chris, no it is not normal for any modern vehicle with only 60K on it to have problems like this on a normal basis.

Vesp I may or may not deal with you tomorrow.

Chris · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2006, 12:16:18 AM »

The car was purchased from a dealer in the area. It's a pretty large dealer, and they have a lot of customers from the area, so I'm thinking they would want to keep this as friendly as possible.

Though if they start giving me grief about fixing the car and whatnot, I will see what I can do to get a partial refund, another car, or a full refund because from what you guys have told me so far, it doesn't seem as though this is normal operation on a car so young (AKA: I got the shaft).

12: The entire car seems to shake and sputter while at a red light, or while driving. (Only while the car is in drive and the transmission is engaged) This makes me think that it is to do with one of the components that generally cost a lot of money. I was talking to a friend of mine today that has a 1998 Ford Explorer with 78,000 miles on it, WHICH WAS ALSO ROLLED, and he has not had half the amount of problems that I have had with mine.

If need be, and I need to purchase another type of car, does anyone have any recommendations? I'm looking to stay with a small to mid-sized SUV for the once a year time when it snows a lot here in Jersey and I need to go out in it. I saw a Saturn VUE a while back in the mall and I really liked the way that it looked and the features were pretty much what I was looking for. Does anyone have any input on Saturns?

Also, what about leasing, versus financing? I don't drive too many miles per year. Maybe 8,000 to 9,000 TOPS.

hackess · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2006, 12:56:25 AM »

I've owned three Saturns in my life. They were all reliable cars. The oldest of them is still running, at over 250K miles -- my uncle bought it from me. It was an SL2. The ION I had until my "divorce" was fantastic. My parents both drive Saturns. They're cheap, but they last.

TheJudge · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2006, 07:09:55 AM »

Quote from: Chris on August 11, 2006, 12:16:18 AM

12: The entire car seems to shake and sputter while at a red light, or while driving. (Only while the car is in drive and the transmission is engaged) This makes me think that it is to do with one of the components that generally cost a lot of money. I was talking to a friend of mine today that has a 1998 Ford Explorer with 78,000 miles on it, WHICH WAS ALSO ROLLED, and he has not had half the amount of problems that I have had with mine.

Do you have access to the maintenance records? Was the car well maintained? If you looked at what 12 sugegsted (tire wear, tire air pressure, tires balanced, etc), perhaps your can try a transmission fluid flush regarding your problems when the vehicle is in drive, but I'm not sure that will cut it.

Quote from: Chris on August 11, 2006, 12:16:18 AM

Also, what about leasing, versus financing? I don't drive too many miles per year. Maybe 8,000 to 9,000 TOPS.

I've always been the type of person who was opposed to leasing, but recently I had a change of hearth. I purchased a new 2003 mazda a few years back, and it was my intent fully pay for the car, and then run it forever. Well... until it was compeltly worthless. I've had minor problems with the car, like the power steering dying on me because a power steering belt broke, rubber shock covers tears, busted beerings, etc. The warantee always covered the problems, but after a while, the warrantee expires... This summer, I was washing the car and noticed it was starting to rust. I saw rust spots on the roof, on the bottom of the doors, and the paint was starting to "buble" because of rust on the back fender. This was a 2003 for fuck sakes. That is not normal.

So, that night I decided I would change cars. By the end of the week, this POS was sold, and I ended up leasing a new car. The car is in a bigger class, it's more expensive when you look at the price tag, it's more confortable, heavier, almost as easy on gaz, yet I'm paying $100 less every month. (I must admit I got a super deal on teh car however because I purchased it from my farger). So, now I don't mind the idea of elasing so much. Sure, I'll never stop paying, but I'l pay less per month and I'll always be driving a new car. To me that's a benefit because after a few years, I get tired of driving the same old car and I'm always considering changing. This way, I have to!

dcrog · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2006, 11:14:09 AM »

If it is shaking and sputtering at a red light and while driving it sounds more like an engine problem. Could be anything from a bad plug, plug wire, vaccum leak, sensor, fuel injector, or a host of many other items.

TheJudge · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2006, 12:35:21 PM »

Air Filter

dcrog · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2006, 03:26:58 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge on August 11, 2006, 12:35:21 PM

Air Filter

Always a possibility.

Evonus · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2006, 05:05:17 PM »

Quote from: Chris on August 11, 2006, 12:16:18 AM

Also, what about leasing, versus financing? I don't drive too many miles per year. Maybe 8,000 to 9,000 TOPS.

My dad has always leased cars. I actually think it's a better idea unless you're going to drive old stonage pieces of crap (like me

). Because you pay about the same amount per month, you have the car for 4 years which is about the time it would start crapping out, then you go and trade it back in and lease another. I think it's a good idea, you should try it out.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2006, 05:19:36 PM »

That's what I'm doing right now. I get to drive around a brand spankin' new car for the monthly cost of a used car, and in the end the dealership eats the depreciation and I walk away from it.

Or I can buy it if I want. Either way, it's a pretty good deal for my needs. Probably not for everyone though.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2006, 05:24:08 PM »

We always buy. First off, we put more miles on our cars than most (if not all) leases will allow. Second off, we wouldn't buy a car that craps out in three or four years in the first place. Third off, we don't have any payments now, nor expect to have any for several years (hopefully then we'll be able to just plop down cash anyway). If you go the lease route you have yourself locked into payments in perpetuity, whereas I go many years in between without any payments.

Chris · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2006, 10:03:43 PM »

I brought the piece of shit into the dealership today for them to take a look at everything, and here are the problems that they found:

Both lower ball joints need to be replaced
Stabilizer links need to be replaced
Bad spark plug (AGAIN!)

Total cost? 860 dollars. Yea, I'm not getting that fixed. I talked them down to 600 or so because the spark plug was put in by them about 8 months prior, so I don't think I put 60,000 miles on it since then. I'm still reluctant to pay 500 dollars for a problem that SHOULDN'T HAPPEN on a car this young/with this few miles on it.

I decided to get a quote from the place that is next to my place of work. They told me roughly $650 to have all the work done. I then told the guy my dealer was going to only charge me $550 for the work. He then said he would match their estimate if I can bring it in in writing. I told the guy I'd have to think about it, and I got back on the phone with my dealer and told them this other place will match their estimate and I had to think about where I would get it fixed. He didn't seemed too concerned.

Basically, I think the car is a total piece of shit and I think the dealer is simply too large to really car about their customers the way that they should, and I probably should sell it ASAP. Question is, if I wanted to get rid of it, what would be the best way to do it? Fix the problems and sell it for more? Don't fix the problems and take off at least $1,000? See if the dealer will take it back for nearly the same price and I won't tell every person I come in contact with that Tom's Ford rips you off when you buy a used car from them?

Evonus · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2006, 12:00:47 AM »

Quote from: Chris on August 11, 2006, 10:03:43 PM

I brought the piece of shit into the dealership today for them to take a look at everything, and here are the problems that they found:

Both lower ball joints need to be replaced
Stabilizer links need to be replaced
Bad spark plug (AGAIN!)

Total cost? 860 dollars. Yea, I'm not getting that fixed. I talked them down to 600 or so because the spark plug was put in by them about 8 months prior, so I don't think I put 60,000 miles on it since then. I'm still reluctant to pay 500 dollars for a problem that SHOULDN'T HAPPEN on a car this young/with this few miles on it.

I decided to get a quote from the place that is next to my place of work. They told me roughly $650 to have all the work done. I then told the guy my dealer was going to only charge me $550 for the work. He then said he would match their estimate if I can bring it in in writing. I told the guy I'd have to think about it, and I got back on the phone with my dealer and told them this other place will match their estimate and I had to think about where I would get it fixed. He didn't seemed too concerned.

Basically, I think the car is a total piece of shit and I think the dealer is simply too large to really car about their customers the way that they should, and I probably should sell it ASAP. Question is, if I wanted to get rid of it, what would be the best way to do it? Fix the problems and sell it for more? Don't fix the problems and take off at least $1,000? See if the dealer will take it back for nearly the same price and I won't tell every person I come in contact with that Tom's Ford rips you off when you buy a used car from them?

I'd say, see if the dealer with take it back. If not I'd take them to court over it. If you don't feel like doing either of those I would just get it fixed and then try to sell it. No one wants to buy a piece of junk.

dcrog · « **Reply #22 on:** August 12, 2006, 12:33:26 AM »

There is no way a car with that few of miles on it should have bad ball joints or stabilizer links needing replaced.

I would think someone has tampered with the odometer. Them or the previous owner would be difficult to prove.

Ask them for the name of the previous owner and his/her phone number. Something doesn't sound right.

I know Vespertine doesn't like Fords. But that is mostly what I have driven for the past 25 years. My old mustang had at least 300K on it when I started resto-modding it. 200K I put on myself driving a minimum of 90 miles a day back and forth to work. My company truck, F-150, has 185K on it right now and it has had to have an alternator, lower intake, and front end reworked. But all of this except the alternator were after 130 to 140K. My laborer foreman is driving a Crown Vic with over 300K and to the best of my knowledge has never had any major problems, other than normal wear and tear.

Sumpin' don't sound right.

12AX7 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2006, 06:28:54 AM »

dc's right on that. (what else is new, right?

)
There's no way you can wear out BOTH ball joints in 60k miles. Since you've heard the noise; I'd take the mechanic's word that they need to be replaced; but that immediately brings ya back to the odometer. They shouldn't be worn out in only 60k.
Fooling with the odometer is a serious crime. Contact your Chamber of Commerce or Better Business Bureau and see if there have been previous complaints against this dealer. File one yourself. That will be in your benefit if things come to litigation. Plus, it helps soothe the feeling of helplessness and anger you get when you get ripped off and have no recourse.
If you decide to sell it and not fix the issues, make sure to tell everything. There are LOTSA people who will buy a vehicle in that condition if they feel they're getting a decent deal; and you're not bullshitting them. I am in that category - I can fix just about anything; so a couple of ball joints and a spark plug wouldn't turn me away neccessarily.
You said you only drive a limited number of miles a year; so leasing might be the best deal for you. I'd sure check into that as well.

12AX7 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2006, 06:46:23 AM »

I have a Ford Ranger and a Chevrolet Camaro. Here's the Camaro; just needs a few touch-ups on the interior...

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Author Topic: Do I have a Lemon? (Read 17380 times)

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