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[Davidfak]

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• (January 12, 2023, 01:18:11 AM)

[Joe Sixpack]

It seems to me that for all the criticism the administration is taking for the seeming haphazard way this is being conducted, and perhaps rightfully so, Libya may be the one place in the world where the US military should be intervening. I think this may be one of those times, like WWII, where America gets to show whether it is just another tribe trying to protect its own patch of dirt, or whether we are actually willing to stand up for the principles we pay so much lip service to.  I would say it's a much more noble cause than Iraq, or even Afghanistan.
No one seems to want to acknowledge that the Gaddafi is potentially giving other dictators in the region the blueprint to survive their own protests. The revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt were relatively peaceful, and ultimately the presidents of both those nations lost power. Gaddafi is not going down peacefully, and if he succeeds, the message to others in his situation is clear: show no weakness to the protesters, and respond with violence until they go away. If it works in Libya, it will be clear in Yemen, Bahrain, etc... what those heads of state need to do to keep their positions. If that is something we are willing to sit back and watch, then whatever is left of our moral credibility is down the drain.

[pbsaurus]

I'm pretty much media free nowadays.  I'm a good two months behind in reading the Economist.  In the grand scheme of things, it probably matters little to me.  With regards to my views on war.  War is only called for if we are actually attacked.  From what I can tell, Libya doesn't fit that so we shouldn't be over there.  We certainly shouldn't have been in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans, Nam, Korea, WW1.  WW2 I'll grant that a case could be made why we went.

[ivan]

  WW2 I'll grant that a case could be made why we went.

Yes, because we were attacked. We remained neutral between 1939 and 1941, and didn't get involved in Europe until 1944. That's not a lot of standing up for principles.

[12AX7]

Whats interesting is not hearing anything about "Obama's illegal war" or how he's a war criminal now; just like Bush. I guess it's ok if he does it?

[Banshee]

It seems to me that for all the criticism the administration is taking for the seeming haphazard way this is being conducted, and perhaps rightfully so, Libya may be the one place in the world where the US military should be intervening. I think this may be one of those times, like WWII, where America gets to show whether it is just another tribe trying to protect its own patch of dirt, or whether we are actually willing to stand up for the principles we pay so much lip service to.  I would say it's a much more noble cause than Iraq, or even Afghanistan.
No one seems to want to acknowledge that the Gaddafi is potentially giving other dictators in the region the blueprint to survive their own protests. The revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt were relatively peaceful, and ultimately the presidents of both those nations lost power. Gaddafi is not going down peacefully, and if he succeeds, the message to others in his situation is clear: show no weakness to the protesters, and respond with violence until they go away. If it works in Libya, it will be clear in Yemen, Bahrain, etc... what those heads of state need to do to keep their positions. If that is something we are willing to sit back and watch, then whatever is left of our moral credibility is down the drain.

I agree in re: Libya, but I think as far as principles and the Middle East are concerned, they went out the window a long time ago with the two-bit oil rich dictators, not all of whom were at all benevolent, that our government has propped up in the face of unpopularity and civil disorder. That being said, as much as I hate to say it, I think acting like part of the international community for once will be a strategic victory both for national security and foreign policy concerns.

[Joe Sixpack]

From a more practical perspective, Egyptians won't forget who propped up their dictator for 30 years, and these guys won't forget if they're left to be railroaded either.

[Vespertine]

Whats interesting is not hearing anything about "Obama's illegal war" or how he's a war criminal now; just like Bush. I guess it's ok if he does it?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42201792/ns/politics/
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/23/avlon.left.obama/index.html?hpt=T1
http://www.newser.com/story/114620/barack-obama-is-a-war-criminal-ralph-nader-says.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-22/dennis-kucinichs-campaign-to-impeach-obama-over-libya-war/#

With a quick 5 minutes of looking, I'd say there already appears to be noise about Obama being a war criminal, and I can only assume the noise about it will continue to get louder. 

[ivan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42201792/ns/politics/
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/23/avlon.left.obama/index.html?hpt=T1
http://www.newser.com/story/114620/barack-obama-is-a-war-criminal-ralph-nader-says.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-22/dennis-kucinichs-campaign-to-impeach-obama-over-libya-war/#

With a quick 5 minutes of looking, I'd say there already appears to be noise about Obama being a war criminal, and I can only assume the noise about it will continue to get louder. 

Haha, wouldn't it be hilarious if Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader form an anti-Obama coalition with Republicans?

Ya, I would LOL.

[pbsaurus]

WWJD

[12AX7]

With a quick 5 minutes of looking, I'd say there already appears to be noise about Obama being a war criminal, and I can only assume the noise about it will continue to get louder. 

 Oh.."already"??  Now that he's in his THIRD war?
 For "humanitarian" reasons? So where were we in Darfur? Somalia? North Korea? Myanmar? Sudan? Rwanda? Oh yeh - no oil.

I think acting like part of the international community for once will be a strategic victory both for national security and foreign policy concerns.

  How do you mean 'acting like part of the international community'? For all the talk of 'coalition' and such; we are STILL leading the involvement. It's great for everyone else; they get to take their time and form 'steering committees' and such; while we (taxpayers) foot the bill for the actions that will only serve as reasons for any anti-US sentiment in the future.
  Even France, who was the loudest and most eager to start bombing Ghadafi doesn't wanna anymore. Germany, Italy, Spain, Russia, China, and a few mideastern nations are against this action in Libya. If anything; this can only serve to hurt us economically, security-wise, reputation-wise.

From a more practical perspective, Egyptians won't forget who propped up their dictator for 30 years, and these guys won't forget if they're left to be railroaded either.

It doesn't matter which side we help. We could help every last individual in the middle east become well-fed, property-owning millionaires; and we'll STILL be villified, denounced, and attacked at the first opportunity by the same people we just helped. Remember the scenes of pulling Hussein's statue down; and how the Iraqis were oh-so-happy to see us remove him from power? What was the very next attitude? It was "GTFO of our country you stinking, evil infidels!"
 We don't have any business in Libya, didnt have any in Iraq, and fucked the pooch on any valid reason to be in Afghanistan. The only lasting effect of US presence in any Mid Eastern nation is resentment and hatred towards us.

 Here's a novel idea; how about using some of this apparently endless funding and resources to address some issues here and get our own nation in shape and on its feet first?