Topic: Canadian Election (Read 17982 times)

Anonymous · « **on:** June 23, 2004, 11:17:32 AM »

Alright, there's a few fellow Canadian compadres that hang around here. I want to know your opinions on the upcoming election. Or if you've been following the Canadian story board, feel free to pitch in.

Issues I want to discuss:

Leaders: How do you feel about each one? (Including Gilles Duceppe)

Parties: How do you feel about each one? (Including the Bloc)

Debate: Did you watch? In what language? Your comments please.

Voting intentions: Who's it going to be? Why?

I'll go first:
The leaders

Martin really disappoints me. I expected more from him. He's a smart man, he was a great finance minister in my opinion but he's not a great leader. I'll elaborate on this later.

Harper is very calm. Perhaps too calm. The problem with Harper is that he's been shooting himself in the foot on a regular basis in the past. Today, it's like he's a different man. His opinions are contradictory, his judgement is poor. The reason why he's so calm lately is because he's not being honest. He's fighting with himself to be very careful in his choice of words. He still has the gun pointed to his foot, but he's starting to realise that he doesn't have to pull the trigger. As a leader, he presents himself well. But can he be trusted? He has some very unconventional ideas which can be a positive thing, or a negative thing. In his case, I'm leaning towards the negative.

Layton does not impress me as leader. He reminds me of a car salesman who believes in his product so much that he's lost his objectivity. He's certainly being very honest and upfront, but he doesn't see the big picture. Also, he needs to develop some skills. His speeches appear rehearsed and unnatural. This particular party also has an unconventional approach to running a country: Let's offer a shit load of government services for free to every Canadian, but lets also tax the hell out of everyone in the process. I'm sorry, but you will never ever win a majority government ever with this approach. I recognise that some of the issues they are raising are important, but they are often not important to the majority. They are often more important to a small group. This is why this party has been getting a relatively low support in terms of overall votes. This year, when Canadians are uncertain and on the defensive, this party could have scored big points had they stepped outside of the box? They failed and they missed the opportunity of a century. This is partly because of poor leadership.

Duceppe cracks me up. This guy is acting in the name of Quebec. I find it funny how he always refers to Quebec and Canada and simply not Canada alone. We don't go out and say Canadians AND Ontarians, Canada and Nova Scotia. There's a certain arrogance that I'm not fond of as a Canadian. As a French Canadian, I find it insulting that this guy will sometimes claim to act in the interest of all French Canadians including those outside of Quebec. But I must admit he is entertaining to watch. Sometimes, he makes no sense; sometimes he makes a lot of sense. The bottom line is that he has nothing to win and nothing to loose so he can get away with anything. He's of little consequences to people like me. At least, that's how the majority often feels. The reality is that he's stealing votes from the other national parties and that could have an impact on a lot of people. He has a grudge with the liberals and his objective is to make them look bad at every opportunity. Does that mean he's supportive of the other parties? Not really because he'll drop the bomb on them when ever he can as well. He's just there to stir things up and he's enjoying that role very much.

The parties

Liberals have been in power for a long time. The problem with liberals in power for a long time is that they take things for granted and they start fighting from the inside in hopes of gaining more control over this power. I'm referring to the old Martin vs. Chrétien story. They both have similar backgrounds and they both have the same aspirations. Chrétien beat Martin to the leadership. He became Prime minister just over 10 years ago. But the Martin supporters still continued to fight for power. Really, it's like having two liberal parties because these people have been much divided. That's not good for a party. So when Chrétien became PM, one of the first things he did was to attempt to resolve this issue by making Martin the Finance Minister. Canada has been running in the whole for like 40 years in a row. Finance Ministers are essentially setup for failure and they rarely survive. Unfortunately for Chrétien, his plan backfired. Martin did the impossible and he turned the country's economy around with some though policies. He became more popular and gained more support in doing so. Eventually, he managed to Force Chrétien out of the office. (I was going to say early retirement, but that would be ironic. I think Chrétien was 69 when he called it quits).

Government spending and sponsorship programs. We don't have answers yet. Lots of suspicions but little facts. When martin took power, I thought he responded well to the whole issue initially by setting up the inquiry board and so on. But now, everything has been called off for no apparent reason. Everything has been delayed to a post election period. Why? People have unanswered questions and when they were finally starting to hope for answers, the door was slammed shut in their face. Bad move. Very bad move. This election is about trust. The liberals did not do nearly enough to regain trust and this is going to hurt them severely.

Conservatives have a bad record. Remember when Mulroney was in power? That started out great but it ended in a disaster. They brought new meaning to the term "running in the hole". Then Joe Clark took over the party. I imagine that's what Demo's chin looks like BTW. Clark wasn't a bad guy. He looks likes a nice old guy to me. But he didn't do much for his party. They went down the drain to the point where he retired and this new young gun took his place. He was there a few weeks and his only action was to merge this party with the Canadian Alliance party. He had to do this because if the trend continued, they would have lost their status of an officially recognised party. They were loosing too many voters. So this young gun did this for the survival of his party. Then when he tried to be the leader of this new party. He got bumped by Harper. That was certainly a short career! lol! In fact, I keep referring to him as "this guy" because I don't even remember his name.

OK so now this "new" party consists of a few old Tories and the COR party. Erm... I mean the Canadian Alliance party. And now, the new conservative party. News flash, you can change your name all you want, but if you don't change your politics and your retarded views about religion, human rights, and homosexuality and so on, you'll still loose.

On that last point, apparently this new party and its leader want to wipe the slate clean all of a sudden! They deny actual statements from the past and they are actually trying to sell themselves as a group who values and supports these morale and ethical issues. They've done a 180 degree turn all of a sudden. I find that hard to believe honestly. I cannot trust this party just yet. They keep reorganising, restructuring, and they keep changing their mind about key issues. Sorry guys, but I'm just not buying it yet. It'd rather stick with a liberal government who may be in fact robbing me of my hard earned cash that to vote for a party that will rob me of my rights as a person. I'll pick the lesser of the two evils.

NDP has gained some grounds over the last years. Not because they changed their policies. In fact, this is one party who as been very clear and very consistent. The problem is that the key issues raised by this party are not key issues to the majority thus they will never be in power. Still, they have a place to play in the government. On some issues, they can act as a conscience, on others however, they are simply a distraction. But the reason why they have been gaining grounds in the last years is because undecided voters who can't make up their mind between the liberals and the conservatives choose balance instead. The NDP splits the votes ensuring that neither of these two parties will gain total control. And that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective. For example, if the conservatives win a majority government, I will more than likely become unemployed very fast. Harper wants to get rid of the department I work for. Over 1000 jobs in Atlantic Canada would be gone if it was up to him. And let's not forget the thousands of jobs we have helped to create over the years through our economic development programs. So as you see, it wouldn't be in my interest to support Mr. Harper. My options are to support the liberals in hopes that they gain a majority government, or support the NDP in hopes that whoever takes power doesn't end up forming a majority government.

The Bloc isn't an option since I don't live in Quebec. They only have candidates in Quebec. What I'll say about this party however is that as much entertainment they provide me with, I'd love to see them go. A party that only focuses on the needs of a specific group in an entire country does not belong. It is counter productive and it hurts the country. Sure, they may bring good things to Quebec. They know how to put up a fight, but if you are going to represent the interest of civilians, do it for everyone equally, not just for those in Quebec. I view that as a form of discrimination and I do not support it. The Bloc should not be recognised as an official party at the national level because they do not in any way represent the interest of the nation.

Debates

I watch both the French and English debate. The French debate was probably the most animated debate this country has ever seen because in the past, half the leaders could barely speak French. This year, I was impressed by the quality of Harper and Layton’s French. And they were able to get their message across. I respect and appreciate their efforts to become bilingual.

Other than that, the French and English debates were essentially the same: a Martin gangbang. And how did Martin perform under the pressure? He did OK. Not well, not bad. Just OK. He didn't gain any grounds but he didn't loose any either. And that disappoints me. Mr Martin could have offered a better performance. For example, when he was attacked about being responsible for the crumbling health care system due to his policies as finance minister, he simply dismissed these accusations. I think it would have been a lot more human and honest to admit that his policies did hurt the health care system. It's a fact. But he should have explained why he made those choices and what the consequences of not making those choices could have been. I'm convinced they would have been far worse. That would have earned him some respect I think. Also, Martin didn't defend any past liberal achievements. At least, not as much as he should have. And that's largely due to his little war with Chrétien. I think he didn't want to credit Chrétien for some of the good things he did. That's not the attitude of a good leader. Finally, Martin has an edge over Harper and Layton: He has an impressive political background. He didn't focus at all on his achievements as a finance minister. This guy brought the country out of the hole! That's quite a feat! He didn't even sell himself on that point. Or on any point for that matter. He was on the defensive constantly. He should have been a lot more aggressive.

Layton was just like an old record constantly repeating the same things over and over. actually, so was Martin when he was talking about his plan. But Layton wouldn't shut the hell up when he should have. That annoyed the heck out of me. Of all the people on that stage, he was the most annoying guy to listen to. Traditionally, this would be attributed to Duceppe, but not this year. At every opportunity, Layton would reinforce the action plan of his party and reinforce the message that people should vote for him for two reasons: to punish the liberals and to ensure that the conservatives wouldn't have a majority government. he's pleading for a central role. OK. Fine. Good strategy. But do you have to make it sound so rehearsed and unnatural? If he doesn't inspire confidence, he's not going to get my attention as a voter first of all. Second of all, I am more concerned about health care, human rights and war than some shack in the boonies with a contaminated well. I know it doesn't sound nice but that's how I feel about issues that affect me.

Harper was very calm through out. Perhaps a little to calm even! Show some energy dude! I'm falling asleep! About your policies: I don't like them. You are playing with fire. You are potentially very dangerous and since I don't trust you yet, there's nothing you can say that will change my mind. I chare Martin's view in terms of the constitution. The Prim Minister has no right to go and change things he doesn’t’t like and revoke someone's right. This is something the courts should deal with. It's a legal issue, not a political one. I don't agree with Martin that the PM should be allowed to tamper with the constitution even to support existing rights for the exact same reasons. It's a legal issue, not a political one. Harper wants to be Bush's puppet. Fine! Go! But don't bring us along. Become an American citizen and do what ever the hell you want.

The US is our best allies. In fact, without the US, we would be bankrupted. Plain and simple. Almost 80% of our economy relies on the US. For the US, only 3% of their economy relies on the Canada markets so they obviously have the upper hand. We do have to maintaining good and strong relationships. That doesn't mind we can't think for ourselves. Mr Harper doesn't get that.

Duceppe has nothing to gain or loose like I said. he's just there to hurt the person he doesn't like. This year it was Martin. All Duceppe had to do during the debate is wait for an opportunity to take a jab. The other two parties were of no consequence. But I must say that he was fair: He slapped them all in the face. He did raise some interesting points sometimes. it's just too bad he's only looking out for the interest of on Province. I think he would make an interesting leader in a nationalist party. Also, this was like his 5th debate so you could tell he was way more relaxed than everyone else. He managed to corner more people. His experience made him shine. But he's still splitting up votes. That's not necessarily good for most Canadians.

Voting intentions

I think it's obvious I'm going to be supporting the liberals this time around. Mostly because I don't want Harper at the head of a majority government. And I don't want him to be in control because I want to keep my job. That is the primary reason. Second, I think overall that the liberals have been good to us in my province. Sure, the health care system is a mess, but it's not just us. It's like that everywhere. I think the Liberals have a clear message from the population that they are tired of putting up with their crap when it comes to spending money inappropriately. And I've seen major changes since Martin took power. I work for the government. Trust me, I've seen some actions and I see more coming. I don't think they handled the sponsorship issue as well as they could have obviously. But I still have faith that they will end up doing the right thing. I think they understand clearly that they are on a slippery surface and I think they will get their act together. As far as the Bloc, they don't apply to me as I stated before. As far as the NDP, they are a good alternative to some degree. If you want to punish the liberals but not support the conservatives, they can be a good option for you. But that's now how I work. There are only two possible choices in terms of our future PM. I'm going to make up my mind on one of the two. And I did.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2004, 11:18:51 AM »

They have elections in Canadia?

Don't you guys have a queen or something?

hackess · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2004, 11:21:30 AM »

I figured you Canadians just made them all go out in the frozen wilderness and whoever survived got to take office.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2004, 11:23:08 AM »

I would have at least expected beer to have some part in the process.

hackess · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2004, 11:24:51 AM »

Quote from: Demosthenes

I would have at least expected beer to have some part in the process.

Yeah, or hockey, eh.

Anonymous · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2004, 11:32:56 AM »

I wanted the liberals to build an arena where the ice was made from frozen beer but they said the players would just "accidently" trip all the time just to get a chance to lick the ice.

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2004, 11:42:53 AM »

You forgot the Green Party. Oh wai--

Anyway, I'm game:

Martin: I had great expectations for Paul Martin when he took office - he looked like a fairly stable alternative after the kooky Chretien hullaballoo - but I guess I should have known better. Martin strikes me as a genuine sort of guy, but just out of his depth. He doesn't seem able to frame any sort of consistent picture for what he wants for his party and for the country. Perhaps I think this because I stopped paying attention to everything the Liberals were saying after the Sponsorship scandal...

Harper: ARGH I AM A NAZI ROBOT. Harper may be a good guy for all I know, but he scares me. There's something about his appearance and mannerisms coupled with his party's "family values" initiatives that just rubs me the wrong way. I really can't imagine a Conservative government being good for the country - in fact, I think the election of a Conservative majority would undo a lot of the social progress we've seen in the last little while.

Layton: Regrettably, I haven't seen that much out of Layton, which is stupid, because I'm supporting the NDP. He's got a nice mustache. (Which apparently is important to a lot of voters!)

Duceppe: Same thing as Layton. The news programs I've watched seem to enjoy showing excessive footage of Martin and Harper, and then leaving these two shmoes out in the cold.

As for the parties part, I've never been down with the Conservative party due to their hardline (and in my view, distinctly, un-Canadian) stance on many social issues and programs. No good for me. Liberals? Yeah right - not after what happened. I know that corruption and graft are going to be happening in nearly any government that's elected, but the SS was just too much. Maybe once some of the leaders of the party have been ousted and replaced, then I'll think about it. No, this time (like the provincial elections) I'm throwing my vote at the NDP dartboard. I don't think their tax raises will be anything bothersome (if an issue at all) and their committment to health care and social programs is usually what does it for me. Bloc? LOL NO

I missed the debate because I was at work when it was on. I thought about taping it, but then remembered that my brother stole the VCR.

Dark Shade · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2004, 01:09:47 PM »

Quote from: catwritr

I figured you Canadians just made them all go out in the frozen wilderness and whoever survived got to take office.

If only it were that simple...

I'm not going to get into too much debate and discussion over Canadian politics, because I really have no opinion. In all honesty, I really don't care who's running the country I live in, until he/she does something or arranges something that DIRECTLY effects me in some form or another.

I can hear people now: "But Dark Shade, you live in Canada. Everything effects you through this and this and this...". Oh believe me, I know. I know far too well. But until Paul Martin or anyone of his ilk walks up to my front door and says "<Insert Name Here

>, THIS is happening to you and there's nothing you can do about it.", I won't care. I won't take action. That day will probably never come, so I have a 'free pass' through political hell, so to speak. I'll never need to get involved until I'm pulled into it, which is fine for me at the present moment.

</rant>

The_FOO · « **Reply #8 on:** June 23, 2004, 01:14:58 PM »

Judge/Lacerda: Impressive analysis of the parties/leaders. I feel essentially the same way so I won't bother to repeat your comments.

Lacerda: I think I'm closer to your way of thinking though.

Liberal: I do think that Martin has been cock blocked so to speak at every turn by spectres of PM's past. I honestly think Martin hasn't been given a chance to do anything besides fight fires that were caused by his old pal Jean. He did a kick ass job as Finance minister. The only coutry in the G8 with a growing economy. That's nothing to sneeze at.

PC/C not even gonna bother with them. If I wanted to live in the 1930's-50's I'd invent a time machine. They scare me with how out of touch they are with the current global political climate/situation.

NDP: They get an A for effort, but they need to grow up a bit more.

BQ: Sorry, Quebec isn't that important. Please go away.

Voting: I'm still torn between Liberal and NDP. With a stong leaning toward Liberal. Mainly because I think Martin could do great things if he wasn't being dogged by the previous regemes mistakes.

Anonymous · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2004, 01:30:41 PM »

That's a good point. He wasn't given a real chance. But then, you could say that about the other three. lol!

biggyfred · « **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2004, 06:45:07 PM »

Awesome thread. Awesome analysis. I was reading about this last night, and was going to ask you guys for some opinions.

Gracias for some internal perspective.

As of my reading last nght of a paper periodical, the Conservatives had a 32% to 31% lead over the Liberals. Is it trending wider, or is Martin gettin all up in there?

The_FOO · « **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2004, 09:27:19 PM »

Last poll results I heard (Tuesday evening's news) Martin had pulled ahead by 4 points or so in general and I think 9 or 12 points ahead for the Liberal's in Ontario alone.

The PC really screwed the pooch with that child porn BS.

Anonymous · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2004, 06:36:08 AM »

Don't pay attention to the polls. People are so obsessed with polls right now it's driving me insane! At a glance, polls often don't say the same thing. But if you read the fine print, you'll see that polls don't always mesure the same thing either. Some polls are based on number of seats, some are based on number of votes. Most of this polls don't have enough participants to represent adequatly a true representation of voting intentions. Also, a lot of these polls are made within certain geographic areas and the sample used is simply not representative. You could take one poll, run it to 10000 people in BC, take the same poll and run it to 10000 people in NS and you could get a considerable discrepancy in the final results.

Another thing to consider: These polls are becoming so popular that they are now being used as a tool by some voters. This year for example, I'm convinced that a lot of people are frustrated with the Liberals but still intend to vote for them. Some will use these polls to send a message. In the polls, they will not reveil their true intentions. They will either identify themselves as undecided or they will pick another party just to make the Liberals shake in their pants until the very last moment. I'm using the liberal example because I think that this year, a lot of this could be going on compared to previous elections.

Election polls are useless. Why try to predict the future? And why use these flawed tools to do so? Let's just wait and see what really happens.

Anonymous · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2004, 07:21:53 AM »

This just in...

Recent polls show that people actually like polls.

Anonymous · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2004, 08:04:16 AM »

This just in...

Most people are idiots

hackess · « **Reply #15 on:** June 24, 2004, 08:04:39 AM »

Quote from: Chris

This just in...

Recent polls show that people actually like polls.

Maybe we should have a poll on it.

Anonymous · « **Reply #16 on:** June 24, 2004, 08:08:24 AM »

I don't know Cat... Maybe we should have a poll to determine if we should have a poll on having a poll that would determine if people like polls or not.

The_FOO · « **Reply #17 on:** June 24, 2004, 11:19:28 AM »

To paraphrase Burt Rutan after the SS1 flight.

We got to space for what it would have cost the government to do a feasibility study on the costs of getting into space.

Polls are the same way. Stop spending the money on the polls and spend it on something that matters like health care or jobs of the national debt.

The_FOO · « **Reply #18 on:** June 25, 2004, 02:40:12 PM »

Forgot all about these guys...

from http://www.wired.com/news/furthermore

Smokin'

02:00 AM Jun. 24, 2004 PT After a two-year stint delivering papers to Canadian senators, Marijuana Party candidate and career dominatrix Carol Taylor says she has entered the political arena to help ease people's pain. Taylor, who says she smokes marijuana to cope with a painful neurological disorder, has whipped up excitement in her Ottawa district, despite being given little chance of beating the incumbent. Her campaign workers left leaflets in mailboxes featuring Taylor with one breast exposed under the banner "Can the cannabis crackdown." Taylor was a Senate page in the early 1990s and since then has worked in a Montreal "dungeon" as a dominatrix. "I can't believe Elections Canada allows this kind of stuff," one Senate employee said. "I'm shocked, and a little aroused."
-- Reuters

Vegetarian · « **Reply #19 on:** June 25, 2004, 08:17:58 PM »

I'm not legal voting age but I voted in the student elections. I voted for "other" even though my vote doesn't matter.

Green - I'm all for the green party, myself. No one really cares about them but me, heh. It's cuz they're new. I'm huge on the environment and they're really the only party I trust with our environment.

NDP - I kinda like that guy. He needs to lose the 'stach, though.

Bloc - Uhhh... no, sorry. Quebec has a big enough province, they're not making us all french. Have you ever been there? They don't even have english signs ANYWHERE. It's like you're in a different country!

Liberals - No, not again. No more.

Conservative - Uh, nope.

Here's something I find interesting:
http://www.greenpeace.ca/e/action/election2004/reportcard.php

The NDP have good marks, but it's one thing to say it and another to actually do it. That's why I trust Green the most.

Law · « **Reply #20 on:** June 25, 2004, 10:00:43 PM »

Quote from: Vegetarian

Bloc - Uhhh... no, sorry. Quebec has a big enough province, they're not making us all french. Have you ever been there? They don't even have english signs ANYWHERE. It's like you're in a different country!

Isn't that the point of their party?

Vegetarian · « **Reply #21 on:** June 26, 2004, 11:27:52 AM »

Quote from: Law

Quote from: Vegetarian
Bloc - Uhhh... no, sorry. Quebec has a big enough province, they're not making us all french. Have you ever been there? They don't even have english signs ANYWHERE. It's like you're in a different country!

Isn't that the point of their party?

Ya, they want the whole country to be all french. Ack. I just went to his website and I can't figure out if theres any english.

The_FOO · « **Reply #22 on:** June 26, 2004, 01:46:53 PM »

Quote from: Law

Isn't that the point of their party?

Nawh, the point of their party is to waste time on money on shit the rest of Canada doesn't give a flying fsck aboot.

And then cry about it like spoiled brats when no one else seems to care. Not even most of their fellow Quebecours. (Or whatever the plural of people from Quebec are called.)

The_FOO · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2004, 09:35:38 AM »

GO VOTE!

Anonymous · « **Reply #24 on:** June 28, 2004, 11:04:35 AM »

Quote from: Vegetarian

Ya, they want the whole country to be all french.

That's not true. They just want to be their own country because they feel they are getting screwed by Ottawa big time. Language has nothing to do with it. But they use the langauge as an excuse. They say they are different. They say they are a nation. There' not different. They're not a nation. We're all getting screwed equally by Ottawa. We're all canadians and that's that. They think they can do better on their own. They may be right. But I don't fell this justifies the existence of a party that will ignore the rest of the country and not look at the big picture. That's racism.

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