Topic: This 13 year old has the biggest balls of them all! (Read 26020 times)

Demosthenes · « **Reply #75 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:39:55 PM »

Well, a lot of virgins are still considered Americans, you know.

avalanche · « **Reply #76 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:12:16 PM »

Yes, but how many have their own wesbite?

Vespertine · « **Reply #77 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:26:05 PM »

Quote from: Gillivray

While we applaud her right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Alligence, has anyone thought about this girls freedom of Religion right? You can not honestly tell me that at 13 years old, (or before) she made the decision to become a Jehova Witness?

What are your thoughts on this?

"If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally". This would be a an entirely different debate.

While I do recognize this post as the strawman that it is, I'm going to address it anyway. With regard to her being a Jehova's Witness (or whatever religion she is), her "freedom of religion" right has not been violated. Children do not have constitutional protection from their parents taking them to church.

reimero · « **Reply #78 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:28:21 PM »

Quote from: Gillivray

I do in fact recognize her right not to stand during the Pledge. I think it boils down to change. I grew up in the Baseball, Apple Pie and Chevorlet America. I just wish our forefathers had been a little more precise in what they meant were our protected freedoms. Everyone has a different interpetation of what the Constitution is. I was raised up to respect this country and simply saying the Pledge of Alligence is one way to show my respect for this country. So from where I am standing, I think it is disrespectful. But it is just my opinion and opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one. LOL

Aha! You just pointed out the critical flaw in your entire argument: you were raised in Baseball, Apple Pie and Chevrolet America, which corresponded with the period we were all rejoicing we were free, not like those godless Communists.

Our protected freedoms - expression, religion, free press, freedom of assembly, the right of the people to bear arms, habeas corpus, the right not to be forced to quarter soldiers in your home - ALL arose from PRECISELY the situation you are criticizing. Franklin, Jefferson et al lived in a time when criticizing the monarch of England was tantamount to treason (and which is illegal to this day in Britain - at least "on British soil.") They lived in a time when states routinely established state religions and persecuted those who didn't go along. They lived in a time when ideas were put down and governments (monarchies, in particular) enjoyed great power.

In short, they wrote the Constitution precisely in such a way as to encourage the free exchange of ideas and to permit dissent in an open fashion. Their dream was of a nation in which that girl could choose not to recite a pledge or prayer and would face no repercussions. They explicitly wanted to avoid thought police or enforced patriotism.

You stated that everyone has a different interpretation of what the Constitution is. The fact is, EVERY legal scholar who knows U.S. Constitutional Law would agree that the Bill of Rights was written PRECISELY to permit unpatriotic dissent. Should smut be covered under free speech? There's (a little) room for debate there. What about swearing in public? Again, the question of public standards vs. free speech applies. But dissent on political or religious grounds? If that is even to be called into question, then the very roots of our Constitution are cast into doubt. This situation is the very model of what our founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Bill of Rights.

Law · « **Reply #79 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:36:20 PM »

Word.

Gillivray · « **Reply #80 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:52:54 PM »

I posted a lengthy response, but deleted it. This argument can go on forever. It's probably easy to see that I lean to the right on the political agendas. I seem to be the only one here that thinks what she did (EVEN THOUGH IT IS HER RIGHT) was un-patriotic and boderline demeaning to the United States. If we're going to let our kids do stuff like this, then over time, there will be a civilization decline and we'll see a swastika on the American flag. We have to teach our kids to respect this country or they, which is our future, will destroy it.

This is my last post on this. Like I said, this debate could go on forever

Demosthenes · « **Reply #81 on:** September 15, 2004, 02:03:22 PM »

No, YOU are!

Raina · « **Reply #82 on:** September 15, 2004, 03:17:10 PM »

Er.. I'm 17, and I've been sitting during the pledge for years due to my atheism. Where's my $1000?

Raina · « **Reply #83 on:** September 15, 2004, 03:20:27 PM »

Quote from: Gillivray

I posted a lengthy response, but deleted it. This argument can go on forever. It's probably easy to see that I lean to the right on the political agendas. I seem to be the only one here that thinks what she did (EVEN THOUGH IT IS HER RIGHT) was un-patriotic and boderline demeaning to the United States. If we're going to let our kids do stuff like this, then over time, there will be a civilization decline and we'll see a swastika on the American flag. We have to teach our kids to respect this country or they, which is our future, will destroy it.

This is my last post on this. Like I said, this debate could go on forever

I'm speaking from first-person POV here, since I've been sitting during the pledge for years. I respect the nation and would stand for the pledge, were the words "under God" not in it. Some people say to just ignore those words, but their entire existence makes the document offensive to me. I can't stand for something that offends me and my beliefs.

Were there a different way to respect the country, that wouldn't involve showing respect for offensive material, I would do it.

I'm a straight A student and am known by all my peers as one of the more intelligent kids in the grade. I never get in trouble at school and am by no means a rebel. It's an issue of the pledge just being offensive.

avalanche · « **Reply #84 on:** September 15, 2004, 03:24:54 PM »

<ForestGump>
the army must keep that money, cause I still ain't seen a nickle of that million dollars
</ForestGump>

Law · « **Reply #85 on:** September 15, 2004, 09:25:35 PM »

Quote from: Gillivray

If we're going to let our kids do stuff like this, then over time, there will be a civilization decline and we'll see a swastika on the American flag. We have to teach our kids to respect this country or they, which is our future, will destroy it.

Whoa. Did you skip your melodrama meds this morning?

Rico · « **Reply #86 on:** September 16, 2004, 03:32:39 AM »

Law, that wasn't a backpeddle. It's exactly what I was saying to begin with. People in the Army and Marines joined because they wanted the excitement or the honor of being in a branch that is very combat orriented. Yes, others die in combat too, my nephew is Para-rescue. Doesn't change the fact that a whole lot more soldiers and Marines die in combat than you guys. As morbid as it is, most of us take pride in that fact, and yes, we see ourselves as being "better" in some ways. That's not really the right word, though. We all have our place, and none of us would be able to do our job without the others, but we each take pride in our service for one reason or another. Navy guys have some of the worst homelives I've ever seen. All that time on sea duty is extremely tough on families. I'm not sure what the Air Force does that really rough, but the Army and the Marines have our combat duty, and we ALL go to hot zones at some point in our career. The other branches can't stay with us on that level, so that's what we take pride in. That pride came through on a smartass comment I shouldn't have been making in the first place.

I highly doubt we'll be saluting Nazi flags before too long, but our country is certainly loosing it's sense of propriety. Wasn't it just a few years ago that a guy pissed in a bottle, put a cross in it, and called it art? It's perfectly alright to insult Christians, but if some one had done the same with some image of Islam, I bet we'd be hearing the cries of outrage for months. It's that lack of respect for other people that...

Nevermind. I think it's extremely disrespectful not to stand for the pledge, even if you don't say it. I don't see how standing can in anyway violate your conscience. All it does is show your respect for the beliefs of the people around you. I also believe you have the right to disrespect anything or anyone that you want. We're not even debating on whether it's legal or not, only that I'm wrong for being offended by it. I, for one, believe my sacred cows are part of what defines me, and I refuse to give them up. Sorry.

Raina · « **Reply #87 on:** September 16, 2004, 06:24:23 AM »

Those of you that are offended by people who don't stand need to realize and understand that a lot of us that don't stand do it because the pledge offends us.

You're offended, we're offended.

Law · « **Reply #88 on:** September 16, 2004, 08:25:49 AM »

Quote from: Rico

It's perfectly alright to insult Christians, but if some one had done the same with some image of Islam, I bet we'd be hearing the cries of outrage for months.

No, you wouldn't. It's done on the nighly news on a daily basis. You're pissed that someone made art with a crucifix? I'm pissed that someone fire-bombed a mosque and that the Florida community had to start an investigation of their own before the FBI would get involved. I'm pissed that Muslim women have their veils torn off "to teach them to be free." I'm pissed off that Muslim men and woman are afraid to go to work for fear that their co-workers may attack them. I'm pissed off that a gas station owner was beat to death for wearing a turban, and he wasn't even Muslim or Arab. He was a pacifist Sikh from India. You're pissed because someone defiled an icon that is worshipped by the religion that forbids its existence? Please.

Quote

I'm not sure what the Air Force does that really rough, but the Army and the Marines have our combat duty, and we ALL go to hot zones at some point in our career.

Ever heard of Somalia? Iraq? Afghanistan? The Air Force has combat duty too, maybe not in the size of deployment, but it still exists. And yes, you all go to hot zones... well, not really, some Marines and Army members never see combat duty or "hot zones."

Quote

The other branches can't stay with us on that level, so that's what we take pride in.

Nor are they supposed to, a) it's not a competition, b) it's not a suicide club. If you chose to join the Army so you'd have a better chance of dying for your country, I think you may want to swing by the psych's office.

Quote

We're not even debating on whether it's legal or not, only that I'm wrong for being offended by it.

No, we were talking about the actual issue. You came in and told us we should all be offended, because you, as a member of the armed forces, were. I'm not debating your right to be offended, I'm debating your right to tell others they can't be offended.

hackess · « **Reply #89 on:** September 16, 2004, 08:29:42 AM »

Quote from: Law

Quote from: Rico
We're not even debating on whether it's legal or not, only that I'm wrong for being offended by it.

No, we were talking about the actual issue. You came in and told us we should all be offended, because you, as a member of the armed forces, were. I'm not debating your right to be offended, I'm debating your right to tell others they can't be offended.

Precisely.

Gillivray · « **Reply #90 on:** September 16, 2004, 10:03:55 AM »

Quote

No, you wouldn't. It's done on the nighly news on a daily basis. You're pissed that someone made art with a crucifix? I'm pissed that someone fire-bombed a mosque and that the Florida community had to start an investigation of their own before the FBI would get involved. I'm pissed that Muslim women have their veils torn off "to teach them to be free." I'm pissed off that Muslim men and woman are afraid to go to work for fear that their co-workers may attack them. I'm pissed off that a gas station owner was beat to death for wearing a turban, and he wasn't even Muslim or Arab. He was a pacifist Sikh from India. You're pissed because someone defiled an icon that is worshipped by the religion that forbids its existence? Please.

I have to cool down first before I can respond to this bullshit. Your pissed off, eh? I guess you missed all the news coverage that day back in September 11, 2001. Ok Law, since you don't watch the news, I'll give you the low down on what happened. 25 terrorists, gee who happened to be towelhead wearing Muslims. Anywho, they killed just a little over 3000 Americans on American soil while also bringing down 2 110 story buildings that were a beautiful landmark in New York. But your not pissed at that huh? Oh thats right, whats the left wing liberal response? "Their just expressing themselves". If you follow Islam, your a suspect. They should be scared. Before 9-11, I hadn't cried in 10-15 years. I cried that day.

Funny thing is, when I was in the Middle East, I met Muslims from all walks of life. 90% of them had the "kill the infedels" mentallity. You see, you haven't experianced half of the shit I have seen. So how can you debate an issue that you have no experiance from? Have you live and fought with them in the Middle East? Nope, your debating from your one source of information......CNN. (Now my turn) PLEASE

xolik · « **Reply #91 on:** September 16, 2004, 10:05:08 AM »

Quote from: Raina

Er.. I'm 17, and I've been sitting during the pledge for years due to my atheism. Where's my $1000?

Atheism is all the rage with you kids these days, isn't it?

**adds more fuel to the fire**

hackess · « **Reply #92 on:** September 16, 2004, 10:08:25 AM »

You're responding from an emotional level, Gillivray. Cool off a bit longer next time.

Gillivray · « **Reply #93 on:** September 16, 2004, 10:26:52 AM »

Right you are. Sorry Cat

I picked a reallt bad time to quit smoking. But I have to quit.

Raina · « **Reply #94 on:** September 16, 2004, 02:01:56 PM »

Quote from: xolik

Quote from: Raina
Er.. I'm 17, and I've been sitting during the pledge for years due to my atheism. Where's my $1000?

Atheism is all the rage with you kids these days, isn't it?

**adds more fuel to the fire**

Considering I've been atheist ever since I was a toddler, I wouldn't say so.

I was raised with extremely religious grandparents and semi-religious parents, and I was taken to church, Sunday school, and a private church school for Kindergarten. But it didn't take long for me to realize I didn't actually believe any of it.

I can assure you I wasn't a five-year-old trying to "rebel" or be "cool".

Demosthenes · « **Reply #95 on:** September 16, 2004, 02:18:47 PM »

As a lifelong atheist myself, I can probably jump to your defense here.

There's no such thing as someone born a theist. Theists are made. Beliefs are formed.

Until that process occurs, one is an atheist.

Some people are brought up to believe in a certain religion, and continue to do so all their lives.

Some are brought up to believe in a certain religion, and never believe, either as a conscious choice, or as a lack of interest.

Some are brought up to believe in a certain religion and later reject it for a different one, or none at all.

I don't think it will ever be "trendy" to be an atheist in our lifetimes. We are still expected to live in a country that excludes us by way of its Pledge of Allegiance, its religion-based laws, and even its currency.

That's not going to change any time soon by my reckoning.

Law · « **Reply #96 on:** September 16, 2004, 02:38:21 PM »

Quote from: Gillivray

I have to cool down first before I can respond to this bullshit. Your pissed off, eh? I guess you missed all the news coverage that day back in September 11, 2001. Ok Law, since you don't watch the news, I'll give you the low down on what happened. 25 terrorists, gee who happened to be towelhead wearing Muslims. Anywho, they killed just a little over 3000 Americans on American soil while also bringing down 2 110 story buildings that were a beautiful landmark in New York. But your not pissed at that huh? Oh thats right, whats the left wing liberal response? "Their just expressing themselves". If you follow Islam, your a suspect. They should be scared. Before 9-11, I hadn't cried in 10-15 years. I cried that day.

Funny thing is, when I was in the Middle East, I met Muslims from all walks of life. 90% of them had the "kill the infedels" mentallity. You see, you haven't experianced half of the shit I have seen. So how can you debate an issue that you have no experiance from? Have you live and fought with them in the Middle East? Nope, your debating from your one source of information......CNN. (Now my turn) PLEASE

Hey fuck nut, guess what? I'm Muslim. I'm also part Arab. That's towelhead and camel jockey or sand nigger to your stunted intelligence.

I have no experience? Okay, first your stunted logic fails to take into consideration that I lived in the Middle East for years. Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestine. I lived for two months in a refugee camp in Gaza. I travelled to almost all the remaining countries. I met one, ONE, person who shared the "death to the infidel" out look. Don't you dare tell me that your racial hatred trumps my actual experience.

Please don't tell me what happened on 9-11. I'm not an idiot, and I don't watch CNN. I lost 11 work collegeagues on one of the planes. I received death threats from people I've never met for three months. Did it matter to them that I was born and raised an American? Did it matter to them that every male in my family for 5 generation had served in the military? No, they were ignorant fucks such as yourself who got their opions and world view from Fox News and three minute speech they heard on the 700 Club one Sunday.

Yes, Arabs are responsible for 9-11. So, you have the right to now harass and kill them at will? Okay, 47,000 Iraqis have been killed in the last 2 years, 87% of from American military action. Do Iraqis now have the right to harass and kill Americans at will? Can they start with you to prove a point?

And I'm suspect because of my religion? Fine. You're Christian, I assume? They IRA used to kill civilians in the name of Catholicism. Now they're suspect. The KKK lynches people in the name of fundamentalist protestant America. Now, they're suspect. Maybe you're Jewish? The Irgun Zvai Leumi killed innocent British civilians in the name of Nationalism. they're suspect. The Meir Kahane gang and the Kach squadrons kill in the name of Orthodox Judaism. That covers them too. Shall I list off the Hindu and Baha'i gangs or terrorist groups, or can you maybe start to see the point? Don't think to hard, I know the light of logic can make it hard to see the fascist guidlines in your world.

This is you cooled down, huh? Well, have fun burning your cross tonight jackass. I hope your hatred keeps you real warm at night.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #97 on:** September 16, 2004, 02:38:32 PM »

I was brought to church and sunday school as a child. I too felt that it was bullshit. My mother would consider herself a christian, my father is more of an apathist. If I were to label myself I would probably be atheist, agnostic, or non-religious. I don't really subscribe to any belief system because all belief systems rely on blindly accepting someone elses viewpoint. I'm too much of a skeptic for that. All knowledge is based upon presuppostions, therefore there can be no knowledge. This reduces me to despair if I think of it too much, so I generally pass on the ontological, teleological, theological, and epistemological discussions since I don't believe, assert, or know anything.

Gillivray · « **Reply #98 on:** September 16, 2004, 02:59:47 PM »

Hey Dicknose, then why are "YOUR" people not doing anything GODDAMN thing about trying to prove Islam is a good and loving religion? You can't because it's foundations are based upon hatered. Pure fucking hate. Your Prophet was a warrior, thats one of the main reasons Isalmic Fundamentalists are so goddamn gung ho about killing anyone that is not Muslim. I'm not Muslim, but you bet your sweet racist ass that when I am in public, I keep an eye on anyone looking Muslim. You attacked America once on our blind side and I'll be damned if it happens again.

Maybe because the only "kill all the infedels" I met in the Middle East is because they were the ones we werr gathering intelligence on. But I didn't meet too many that were happy to see us either. That was my first taste. Then 9-11 happens, you tell me why I believe the way I do? I had a friend in the 75th Ranger Regiment that was blown into a million pieces from a roadside bomb that (who planted it?) detonated when his patrol walked by the car. Don't whine to me about losing friends, we have all lost loved ones due to this "religious" holy war.

I don't think I would feel this way if your people would have just handed Bin Laden over in the first place. That would have proved to me that there are a lot of good Muslims in this world. And I know that there are some good ones out there. But there not doing anything to prove otherwise unless you can enlighten me about something I don't know.

Burning crosses? Please idiot, don't asscioate me with those ignorant country hicks.

And please, if you think I am ignorant, listen to yourself assuming what religion I am. I have no religion. I am an atheist. And I do the same thing with the KKK, the IRA, the JDL all of them. Because I am not with a specific religion, I feel like a target sometimes.

And besides that dickweed, did I single you out? Fuck no I did not. Did I refer to "law"? No I did not. But just like a true Muslim, you went off on a tanget. My point has been proven, thank you.

hackess · « **Reply #99 on:** September 16, 2004, 03:03:00 PM »

All right, that's enough.

Gillivray, you post in this thread again and I'll ban you. You two stay away from each other.

News:

Recent Forum Posts

Shout Box

Author Topic: This 13 year old has the biggest balls of them all! (Read 26020 times)