Topic: Immigration (Read 16097 times)

Crystalmonkey · « **on:** June 05, 2006, 02:09:22 PM »

One topic up for discussion is whether we should/could bring Mexico into the union. I add that we should also bring in Canada.

I'm going to try to just offer up some points for debate, then I'll throw in my two cents, but keep in mind this is about "Illegal" immigration, not just about adding Mexico into the union. I don't necessarily support the ideas presented, until I throw in my chunk of change.

Points Against "Illegal" Immigration:
-Illegals are a drain on the economy
-Jobs should go to Americans
-They should come here legally like everyone else
-It's ILLEGAL!!!

Points For "Illegal" Immigration
-The system is broken, they can't come here legally
-Companies are hiring them, but not being punished
-Blame the companies, not the people
-They are just trying to make a living
-They aren't a drain, they actually contribute more and get out less

ivan · « **Reply #1 on:** June 05, 2006, 02:16:21 PM »

Welcome to the Geekery, fastmode. Tell us a little about yourself.

BizB · « **Reply #2 on:** June 05, 2006, 02:28:33 PM »

L.M.A.O.! Thanks ivan... I needed that.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #3 on:** June 05, 2006, 03:57:51 PM »

Hectar!

Just by making something illegal doesn't mean it is wrong nor will it make it cease. Too many analogies I could post here. But take alcohol for one. The country made it illegal earlier last century. Is consumption of it inherently wrong? Did making it illegal cause it to cease?

Illegals are a drain on the economy? Sure one can bring up a few cases where a few are. But these are just anectdotes framed by the marketing folks of the anti-immigration types. Most immigrants who enter illegally prefer not to be caught and sent back, so do you think they sign up for services? No, they work their two to three jobs 100+ hours a week and send most of their money back home to their families. As a former restaurant manager I've seen plenty of this.

Jobs should go to Americans? They already do and their are plenty of unskilled labor jobs available to Americans. When I hired unskilled laborers who were nth generation Americans to be dishwashers, most didn't last even a week. When I hired immigrants they had a wonderful work ethic. There is demand for unskilled labor in this country. The immigrants are merely filling a need. Mobility of labor is a good thing, and necessary for our macroeconomic health.

They should come here legally like everyone else? Everyone in this country is descended from immigrants (including native americans according to the Anthropologists). Plus many of our ancestors got here illegally, or were at least undocumented. The immigration laws and quota system is outdated and not suited for our needs. Ivan mentioned economic equillibrium in the n00b thread and that applies here. I had a cook who was a PhD in chemical engineering but made more as a graveyard cook at a restaurant in CA than he was making in Mexico.

It's ILLEGAL? Legislative bodies of every type have made tons of things illegal. Do you drive the speed limit? Have you never run a red light. Do you claim all of your income, including gambling winnings, prizes, etc. on your income tax return? Do you claim the value of internet purchases and pay the applicable sales tax on your state tax return? In some states have you ever engaged in oral sex? All of these are illegal. I would be willing to bet that every american citizen has done something against the law at one point.

Companies are hiring them and not being punished? There is plenty of enforcement. Our restaurants get I-9 audits and get into trouble all the time. I can honestly say that everyone I hired had proper documentation--green card, and or driver's license and social security card. However I'd be willing to bet that many were in fact illegal and had purchased and or made their own counterfeit documentation. How is an employer to be able to know this?

I liken the 'illegal immigration' issue to the 'war on drugs'. You can throw all the money into enforcement you like. It will still be there. Giving the government a bigger budget to solve a problem never does, it's just the same as throwing the cash in an incinerator.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #4 on:** June 05, 2006, 06:41:30 PM »

Couldn't have put it better myself.

What pb said.

Chris · « **Reply #5 on:** June 05, 2006, 11:34:15 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus on June 05, 2006, 03:57:51 PM

Companies are hiring them and not being punished? There is plenty of enforcement. Our restaurants get I-9 audits and get into trouble all the time. I can honestly say that everyone I hired had proper documentation--green card, and or driver's license and social security card. However I'd be willing to bet that many were in fact illegal and had purchased and or made their own counterfeit documentation. How is an employer to be able to know this?

Being a restaurant manager at the moment, I know for sure that this type of thing goes on. They get hired, they give you all the documentation - which is all fake (I speak two languages... some of them have out right told me they're illgeal) and we simply play dumb and pretend all is well.

There is a simple way for business owners to check whether or not their employees are indeed legal. (See here) I'm not sure if this is required that SS numbers be checked against the national database, but if it is, a lot of places are just waiting for a firm ass pounding.

When I ask them "Why did you come here?" they answer "Because I did not have a good life style in Mexico." They lived in houses with dirt floors, no running water, no electricity, and the jobs down there did not pay enough to live off of. I think the question is not "How do we stop them from coming here?" but "How do we help them so they don't want to come here anymore?" They love their culture, they love their homeland, but just like us they need money. We spend shit loads of money helping other countries on the other side of the world get up on their feet, I think we should do the same with Mexico.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #6 on:** June 06, 2006, 08:29:28 AM »

Exactly. When it comes down to it, they want a lot of the same things we want, and most of them are only out to make an honest living, like most of us.

I don't know about spending shitloads of money on trying to help Mexico. I think the first thing that needs to be done is to encourage them to oust their corrupt government and put together one that isn't out to fuck them.

Min · « **Reply #7 on:** June 06, 2006, 09:04:23 AM »

So....we're for annexing Mexico then?

BizB · « **Reply #8 on:** June 06, 2006, 09:08:47 AM »

Do we get their holidays, too?

We'd be RICH with days off... http://www.mexonline.com/holiday.htm

Rich I tell ya!

Chris · « **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2006, 10:29:17 AM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on June 06, 2006, 08:29:28 AM

I don't know about spending shitloads of money on trying to help Mexico. I think the first thing that needs to be done is to encourage them to oust their corrupt government and put together one that isn't out to fuck them.

They actually have the utmost respect President Fox, and believe he is doing a good job. This boggles my mind. From what I have read, the amount of jobs in Mexico has actually been declining since Fox has been in office, despite him promising one million new jobs a year.

Min · « **Reply #10 on:** June 06, 2006, 11:44:24 AM »

Quote from: BizB on June 06, 2006, 09:08:47 AM

Do we get their holidays, too?

We'd be RICH with days off... http://www.mexonline.com/holiday.htm

Rich I tell ya!

Well, we'd get rid of Feb 5 and 24, we have Cinco de Mayo anyway, we'd also get rid of all the holidays in September. But we'd have 2 christmases and labor days, so that's good.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2006, 12:07:19 PM »

In addition to the extra holidays, I'd like to add siestas. Employers should be forced to allow a three or four hour siesta after lunch. While we're at it we should annex France too, so that we can get a 35 hour work week and 8 week summer vacation.

ivan · « **Reply #12 on:** June 06, 2006, 12:10:08 PM »

I don't know if any of you caught Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations ep on the Travel Channel a couple of weeks ago when he covered the TexMex border. Catch it on reruns if you missed it. He says the right things at the right time, and it took some guts. Good on him.

Here in SoCal, the Mexicans have landed long ago, and they continue to land. So far, so good as far as I'm concerned. Sure, there are problems, and the anti-immigrant backlash is getting more intense. It's disconcerting to see packs of grannies on street corners waving American flags, and to hear neighbors speaking of them in hushed tones. But it's all for naught: the blending will continue unabated.

The illegal immigrant issues are tempests in teapots. Burden on society? The numbers just don't bear that out. Criminal element? Negligible. The vast majority of the people here illegaly or temporarily are here to work. As Chris said, they love their homeland and the families back home, and see the US as a great opportunity -- often the only opportunity -- to earn some cash and improve their conditions.

The stupidest rallying cry, the talking-point I hear over and over again, is "this wave of immigrants is different, because they do not want to assimilate." That has been said about every immigrant group in US history, from the Chinese in the mid-1800s to the Italians and Poles, to the Russians and the Cubans, to the Vietnamese boat people and the very very strange Hmong among us. And it always ends up being not true: assimilation inevitably happens. "Oh," the current immigrant alarmists cry, "but these Mexicans are different! They won't learn the language! They don't even try!" Absolute, 100% bullcrap. BULLCRAP! It was always this way. The older generation, set in its ways, stays Italian or Polish or Vietnamese deep in their hearts. But their children are today's Americans. And how can these alarmists say such things with a straight face? "They don't want to blend in!" How the hell are they supposed to blend in while living under the constant threat of deportation? Illegal immigrants, by definition, cannot assimilate. But their children do.

I'm for amnesty and a liberal guest-worker program, and border security aimed at stopping true criminals. The INS should be decommisioned and its resources absorbed by US Customs and Border Protection. And the reason I think the US and Mexico should join economies is this: there will always be a steady stream of people pouring from areas of suffering economies to areas with robust economies. This is true even within the confines of the United States, like when California was innundated by Dust Bowl refugees less than a century ago (and who, by the way, were as unwelcome by many Californians as any Mexican), and, more recently, when cities like Austin and Dallas struggled to absorb people displaced by Katrina, with the concomitant rise in poverty, crime and homelessness. The flipside of this trend is that there is a steady flow of US dollars sent back home to Mexico (not to mention places like Pakistan and India) by immigrant workers, both legal and illegal, which arguably helps local Mexican economies. If Mexico and the US had a shared economy (as in 51st state), all that cash would stay in the US.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #13 on:** June 06, 2006, 12:23:49 PM »

I like the idea of joining with Mexico. But I'd prefer it to be California, Oregon, Washington, British Colombia and Mexico all forming one country. And while were at it we could add in Belize. Because I like Belize. Or at least the idea of Belize, since I've never been there.

Chris · « **Reply #14 on:** June 06, 2006, 12:27:57 PM »

Quote from: ivan on June 06, 2006, 12:10:08 PM

The stupidest rallying cry, the talking-point I hear over and over again, is "this wave of immigrants is different, because they do not want to assimilate." That has been said about every immigrant group in US history, from the Chinese in the mid-1800s to the Italians and Poles, to the Russians and the Cubans, to the Vietnamese boat people and the very very strange Hmong among us. And it always ends up being not true: assimilation inevitably happens. "Oh," the current immigrant alarmists cry, "but these Mexicans are different! They won't learn the language! They don't even try!" Absolute, 100% bullcrap. BULLCRAP! It was always this way. The older generation, set in its ways, stays Italian or Polish or Vietnamese deep in their hearts. But their children are today's Americans. And how can these alarmists say such things with a straight face? "They don't want to blend in!" How the hell are they supposed to blend in while living under the constant threat of deportation? Illegal immigrants, by definition, cannot assimilate. But their children do.

I can attest to this. The younger immigrants are more willing to learn the English language; they ask me question on how to say certain words and phrases in English, and some of them even take English classes on their own, which I think is great. On the other hand, there are those who are about 35 to 40 years old and older who want nothing to do with the English language, other than how to say, "Hello, goodbye, thank you, sorry" and a few other important words. I'm sure this is the same with any other influx to the United States - The younger generation adapts easily, whereas the elders don't want to change their ways.

Just my two cents.

ivan · « **Reply #15 on:** June 06, 2006, 12:40:39 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus on June 06, 2006, 12:23:49 PM

I like the idea of joining with Mexico. But I'd prefer it to be California, Oregon, Washington, British Colombia and Mexico all forming one country. And while were at it we could add in Belize. Because I like Belize. Or at least the idea of Belize, since I've never been there.

If we did that, the resulting nation would be one king hell of a powerhouse world economy. We'd have it all. The only problem I see with that scheme is border enforcement. On the plus side, the Rockies provide a natural barrier on the East, and it would be relatively easy to patrol the passes, although we would probably have to give up Eastern Oregon and Eastern Washington in the interests of national security. But the big problem would be our border with Texas. Sure, we'll have the resources to build a wall, but those bloody-minded Texans won't be deterred by that. When our Mexican province becomes the fastest growing economy in the world, and when Texas inevitably falls into decline because of corrupt Washington politics and general backwards notions about how to run an economy, there will be no keeping those rednecks out. And you know those fuckers won't even try to learn the language and assimilate.

ivan · « **Reply #16 on:** June 06, 2006, 12:54:55 PM »

I meant the Cascades and Sierra Mountain ranges, of course. The Rockies would stay with the US, unless we'd be willing to absorb all the Western states. Which might not be a bad idea.

What are we calling our country?

pbsaurus · « **Reply #17 on:** June 06, 2006, 12:57:17 PM »

How about Ivapbsauria

Min · « **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2006, 12:58:37 PM »

Would they allow RV's to come into Ivapbsauria from the US?

BizB · « **Reply #19 on:** June 06, 2006, 01:00:38 PM »

This, despite the fact that you can learn the language by watching the crap that Hollywood produces.

ivan · « **Reply #20 on:** June 06, 2006, 01:10:04 PM »

Quote from: Detta on June 06, 2006, 12:58:37 PM

Would they allow RV's to come into Ivapbsauria from the US?

If they don't, then I wouldn't want to live in that Ivapbsauria.

Vespertine · « **Reply #21 on:** June 06, 2006, 01:36:23 PM »

Another example of this. I have a friend who is Polish. He was born in Poland and his family came here in the early/mid eighties. Some of his family lives here in AZ, and the rest lives in Chicago. His grandparents live in Chicago and speak no English (they mostly stick to the Polish neighborhoods), his parents are bi-lingual, and my friend only speaks enough Polish to get by.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #22 on:** June 07, 2006, 09:55:48 AM »

In the town in which I grew up there were a couple of Lao families. The parents spoke broken English and mostly Lao, but they wouldn't even LET their kids speak their native tongue. They insisted that English be the primary language spoken in their home.

Won't assimilate. Feh.

Peter · « **Reply #23 on:** June 07, 2006, 10:09:33 AM »

I am canada and I go with what the USA are doing sure the Mexicans are fludding USA but thay are doing it rong yes I know the system is hard to get in but thay should come to USA learn a bit of english hafe to do a test and you can come to USA it's so pointless just playing cat and mouse no one will win i hope that would happen one day for USA I would be angery if I went to a store or had a person working for me who has no english! just hearing doing rong thay do try thear hardist but its not the ppl that are rong thay are trying to do well but manny are doing rong as well so its very hard but i personly think the prossese should be faster USA was built on imagrents trying to run away from Relgious countreys along with canada so i find it kinda funny thats just my 2 cents and I am going from the first post of the site not flaring anyone that could have posted b4 me

Demosthenes · « **Reply #24 on:** June 07, 2006, 10:12:57 AM »

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Author Topic: Immigration (Read 16097 times)

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