Topic: Will there ever be an end to how much we can discover? (Read 7212 times)

TeraHammer · « **on:** November 06, 2006, 10:41:33 PM »

(Assuming the universe is limited)

Will we, at any time in our future, know everything there is to know? About physics, health, pickles, etc etc? Or will there be new explorations to pursue time after time?

Being as student physics myself, I know we derive things with merely approximations on how things work. Like gravitation; first it was Archimedes who found out that object with greater weight fall quicker. Galileo discovered that resistance is the cause of difference in fall speed. Newton then quantitized gravitation, who was corrected again by Einstein's general relativity.
Were does this stop? Will we ever know the TRUTH how things work, exactly?

ivan · « **Reply #1 on:** November 06, 2006, 11:34:10 PM »

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #2 on:** November 06, 2006, 11:47:13 PM »

I cuncur with ivan. Not only is there just plain too damn much to understand, great yonks of it are simply beyond human comprehension.

Chris · « **Reply #3 on:** November 06, 2006, 11:49:05 PM »

Or if we do know everything there is to know in a few hundred thousand years from now (assuming the human species is still around), we will always think that there is more that we can know.

TeraHammer · « **Reply #4 on:** November 06, 2006, 11:59:13 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on November 06, 2006, 11:47:13 PM

I cuncur with ivan. Not only is there just plain too damn much to understand, great yonks of it are simply beyond human comprehension.

That's a rather negative view on humanity. What if we evolve in more intelligent creatures? Plus, check out our scientific progress in the past 1000 years...

Quote from: Chris

Or if we do know everything there is to know in a few hundred thousand years from now (assuming the human species is still around), we will always think that there is more that we can know.

Thats not right. If science can prove this is all there is in our universe, than this is all there is, and nobody can deny it. Vigorous scientists might pursue alternatives, but if something works all the time and everywhere in every state, then science is done. Even religion will be banished then.

Chris · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2006, 12:08:38 AM »

Quote from: TeraHammer on November 06, 2006, 11:56:16 PM

Yeah, religious crap...

I see everything that goes on here, by the way.

TeraHammer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2006, 12:09:26 AM »

I edit a lot. I'm finished with my post now though

Though I do think it is lame you hide yourself.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2006, 01:23:30 AM »

Everything you know is wrong.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #8 on:** November 07, 2006, 01:54:46 AM »

Quote from: TeraHammer on November 06, 2006, 11:59:13 PM

That's a rather negative view on humanity. What if we evolve in more intelligent creatures? Plus, check out our scientific progress in the past 1000 years...
Thats not right. If science can prove this is all there is in our universe, than this is all there is, and nobody can deny it. Vigorous scientists might pursue alternatives, but if something works all the time and everywhere in every state, then science is done. Even religion will be banished then.

It's actually not a negative view on humanity, so much as a fundamental fact of being physical beings. I was alluding to the four dimensional structure of space-time, among other things, which is literally impossible to comprehend. It's like trying to jam a bowling ball into a box of matches without removing the matches or something.

Actually people CAN deny things that science has shown are as logical and backed up with fact as things can be, and we call this Creationism.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2006, 02:25:33 AM »

Well, your first point was that we are assuming the universe is limited.

Therefor, if we have an infinite amount of time, we don't get wiped out, and our knowledge isn't lost (meaning we keep improving, and don't have to worry about some wierd accident where all knowledge is lost) there should be no reason for us to not eventually know everything. Even if we did lose what we knew, with an infinite amount of time and our survival, we should be able to eventually get there.

While it is quite possible, even likely, that by this point we will have been genetically modifying ourselves, as well as evolving, it is hard to say what our limits will be in the future.

As for space/time, we're actually getting better at understanding space, and I see no reason for us to have a better understanding of time as well. At one point, gravity was a mysterious unknown force that influenced us but was beyond our comprehension, at least until someone put together the pieces.

Seems a bit disjointed to me, but it's almost 2:30 and I need to go to sleep for classes. Oh well.

Rico · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2006, 07:09:56 AM »

Quote from: TeraHammer on November 06, 2006, 11:59:13 PM

Even religion will be banished then.

Faith does not preclude reason, nor visa versa. (Though there are certainly enough on both sides of the thought that believe otherwise)

TeraHammer · « **Reply #11 on:** November 07, 2006, 07:46:30 AM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on November 07, 2006, 01:54:46 AM

It's actually not a negative view on humanity, so much as a fundamental fact of being physical beings. I was alluding to the four dimensional structure of space-time, among other things, which is literally impossible to comprehend. It's like trying to jam a bowling ball into a box of matches without removing the matches or something.

Actually people CAN deny things that science has shown are as logical and backed up with fact as things can be, and we call this Creationism.

4 dimensional space-time is not too difficult to comprehend; the fact that we can't picture an 4D object does not mean we can't derive how it works. Cults denying science will come over eventually. Take the catholic church and the earth rotating around the sun businness.

Quote from: Crystal Monkey

Well, your first point was that we are assuming the universe is limited.

Therefor, if we have an infinite amount of time, we don't get wiped out, and our knowledge isn't lost (meaning we keep improving, and don't have to worry about some wierd accident where all knowledge is lost) there should be no reason for us to not eventually know everything. Even if we did lose what we knew, with an infinite amount of time and our survival, we should be able to eventually get there.[

Nothing if the amount of knowledge is infinite.

TheJudge · « **Reply #12 on:** November 07, 2006, 08:05:25 AM »

Quote from: Crystalmonkey on November 07, 2006, 02:25:33 AM

While it is quite possible, even likely, that by this point we will have been genetically modifying ourselves, as well as evolving, it is hard to say what our limits will be in the future.

I just want frickin' sharks with frickin' laser beams on their heads!

But you do have a point. And not only will we modify ourselves genitically, but I see us becoming more like the borg collective in the future.

milifist · « **Reply #13 on:** November 07, 2006, 08:40:20 AM »

Quote from: TeraHammer on November 06, 2006, 11:59:13 PM

Even religion will be banished then.

I don't think so.

The perfect knowledge that you describe will only perpetuate religion in one form or another. Perfect knowledge requires knowing the entire history of the universe, from beginning to end. Not just crud fundamentals like the laws of physics, but to know precisely the smallest details like what I had for lunch 20 years ago, or what an ant killed 2000 years ago was thinking about before it died. Until we know everything there will be something to discover. And, religion will not stop after we reach that point, because we will then be gods ourselves.

TheJudge · « **Reply #14 on:** November 07, 2006, 09:21:50 AM »

We will never know everything. There will always be one question that will remain: Do we know everything yet?

How can you prove that you do?

ivan · « **Reply #15 on:** November 07, 2006, 01:00:50 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on November 06, 2006, 11:47:13 PM

great yonks

Colorful idiom duly noted and added to lexicon.

Many thanks!

+1

ivan · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2006, 01:05:30 PM »

Quote from: TeraHammer on November 06, 2006, 10:41:33 PM

(Assuming the universe is limited)

Will we, at any time in our future, know everything there is to know? About physics, health, pickles, etc etc?

My post of a moment ago is an illustration of my position on this matter: just when you think you know everything, along comes something new, be it in the form of a refutation of everything you ever believed in or a colorful turn of phrase. I won't go into useless ruminations about how dreary and pointless life would be if we knew everything that will happen, everything that did, everything that could and everything that could not. I won't tire you with poetic discourses on the beauty of the unexpected, the eroticism of the unknown, because the issue is academic: man will never achieve a state wherein he knows all there is to know. And I will prove it to you with one word:

ivan · « **Reply #17 on:** November 07, 2006, 01:05:43 PM »

Women.

sociald1077 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2006, 02:35:24 PM »

Quote from: milifist on November 07, 2006, 08:40:20 AM

The perfect knowledge that you describe will only perpetuate religion in one form or another.

Science then becomes the religion. And people that chose not to fallow the religion of science become shunned and ridiculed, propagating more and more to fallow the outcasts. And the cycle starts again.

People will never know everything. Pessimistic? Yes. But as has been said before, humans will always ask "What more?" And the pursuit of that will never end.

ivan · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2006, 02:58:42 PM »

Quote from: sociald1077 on November 07, 2006, 02:35:24 PM

People will never know everything. Pessimistic? Yes.

No, no, no, no, no... NOT pessimistic. Like I said before, if everything is known, what is there to live for? Inquiry is a primal human life force. People who have no interest in what tomorrow may bring are animalistic, at best.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #20 on:** November 07, 2006, 06:55:53 PM »

Quote from: TeraHammer on November 06, 2006, 10:41:33 PM

Were does this stop? Will we ever know the TRUTH how things work, exactly?

Well, let's address this first. You have your terminology all mixed up. To paraphrase Indiana Jones from "Raiders of the Lost Ark", science is the search for FACT.

If you want TRUTH, you should be in philosophy, down the hall.

Thank you.

ivan · « **Reply #21 on:** November 07, 2006, 07:17:34 PM »

Well, actually, this has been philosophy all along. Science flew out the window right after the "(Assuming the universe is limited)" bit.

sociald1077 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 07, 2006, 08:15:38 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on November 07, 2006, 06:55:53 PM

If you want TRUTH, you should be in philosophy, down the hall.

And X never, EVER, marks the spot.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #23 on:** November 07, 2006, 08:18:46 PM »

Quote from: ivan on November 07, 2006, 07:17:34 PM

Well, actually, this has been philosophy all along. Science flew out the window right after the "(Assuming the universe is limited)" bit.

I know, I just really like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

TeraHammer · « **Reply #24 on:** November 07, 2006, 09:16:57 PM »

Fine, swap truth with facts if you want.

Quote from: ivan on November 07, 2006, 07:17:34 PM

Well, actually, this has been philosophy all along. Science flew out the window right after the "(Assuming the universe is limited)" bit.

I don't know where you base this on. The greater part of the astronomists believe the universe is limited. Assuming that is not at all throwing science away. Besides, if we don't assume the universe is limited, we'll never know all the facts.

And, for a more deeper thought, is science not a form of philosophy (literally: love of wisdom)? Scientists need to think, need to understand, need to be wise first before engaging in an experiment. You can in my eyes define science as practical philosophy.

Wikipedia writes: philosophy differs from science in that philosophy's questions cannot be answered empirically

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Author Topic: Will there ever be an end to how much we can discover? (Read 7212 times)