Topic: The "n" word (Read 12876 times)

ivan · « **on:** April 06, 2007, 11:41:41 AM »

Ok, let's see if I can lay this out logically:

1. Gas prices continue to rise. It's now a JEFF.COM cliche that minor events trigger price hikes. And when the cost of crude goes down, OPEC curtails production to keep driving the prices up. Granted it's a complex system, but when viewed as a whole, the global petrolium industrial complex is reaming the consumer.

2. In the US, far more than in other nations, our economy depends on gas. Also, far more than in other nations, the well-being of the citizenry depends on the economy, which depends on gas. Access to, and abililty to afford gas is vital to the vast majority of US citizens, except for maybe Ed Bagely, Jr.

3. One thing that everyone in the US (except maybe for American Fascists) can agree on is that the primary role of a government is to protect the rights of the citizenry.

4. If an individual or an entity consistently interferes with Americans' ability to engage in commerce and generally pursue happiness, and the government does nothing about it, then the government is in effect colluding with enemies of the people, and failing its prime directive.

5. If the government decides to interfere with Big Oil's ability to engage in commerce and pursue whatever it considers to be happiness (and I think we all know what that is) by doing something drastic, albeit popular, like, for instance, regulating the price of gas, then it will rightly be seen as a fascist entity that has betrayed the people.

6. Gasoline can, and perhaps should, be viewed as a commodity vital to not only the well-being of the populace, but to the very existance of this nation. Gasoline is as important as water, electricity, air, roads, air traffic, radio, agriculture, firearms, medicine, &c., all of which are or have been controlled and regulated by government.

7. The only reason gasoline prices are not regulated is because.... Wait. Why aren't gasoline prices regulated?

8. It's the government's responsibility to protect the rights of citizenry, and also the rights of Big Oil. The only way to satisfy both responsibilities is to buy Big Oil and run it as a non-profit.

9. That's called "nationalization".

10. Answer this question: how badly do Americans have to be reamed at the pump while watching Big Oil garner record (and obscene by any standard) profits before the "n" word does not seem like a bad idea?

I say it could happen, and soon.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #1 on:** April 06, 2007, 11:52:11 AM »

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id3.html

Build one of those, and avoid the issue entirely!

ivan · « **Reply #2 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:04:46 PM »

That falls under the "Ed Bagely, Jr." model. Individuals opting out of the system don't change anything.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #3 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:06:33 PM »

I dunno, widespread proliferation of this sort of thing could potentially shift the manner in which people buy fuel, and relocate the means of production to the end-user (assuming of course they feel like running a still).

ivan · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:15:24 PM »

The moment home-made fuel bites into one-one-thousandth of a percent of gasoline sales, it will become very, very illegal.

milifist · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:36:43 PM »

Fuel still won't catch on. They're too much work to operate, they're dangerous, and there is too much paper work to operate one legally. Running a fuel still would be like getting a second job that pays way below minimum wage.

BizB · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:41:02 PM »

1. Gas prices, while continuing to rise, have kept pace with inflation over the past XX years.

JEFF.COM article submitters watching the day-to-day price of oil and poking fun at the potential causes of the fluctuations, in the end, may end up contributing to the problem rather than helping it.

2. True, true. However, it must be noted that the entire world's economy hinges on our own economy. If we fail, it will have catastrophic consequences around the globe.

3. Protecting my rights has nothing to do with the price of gasoline. Hell, the price of a gigabit of bandwidth probably has as much effect on my day to day life as a gallon of gasoline. You don't see anyone calling for the government to regulate the cost of bandwidth, do you?

4. Nobody is interfering with Americans' ability to participate in the free market economy with respect to our energy usage. The gasoline futures market is available to the entire populace. Go buy gasoline futures if you think people are making a killing in this market.

5. The government has already decided to interfere with Big Oil's ability to engage in commerce and pursue profits. They've regulated the industry to the point of strangulation. There hasn't been a refinery built in 20 years despite the fact that our average daily use of oil has increased by 12 million barrels per day. The Chinese and the Mexicans are both going to be operating new oil rigs in the gulf of mexico. We cannot because of environmental regulations.

6. I know, isn't it a shame that so many industries have been throttled by the US government. tisk tisk.

7. They're not regulated because they're not a problem. Regulate them and control the profits that can be generated from the sale of gasoline and you'll only further reduce the amount of gasoline that's available.

8. Right, rights. Nuff said.

9. Huh?

10. You're getting reamed, but it's not Big Oil that's doing it. How much of the cost per gallon of gasoline is state/county/city tax where you live?
http://www.ohiogasprices.com/tax_info.aspx
How much profit per gallon is generated for the oil company/retailer?
If you think that the oil companies are making a good profit, I say, "Invest there."

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:46:28 PM »

Quote from: ivan on April 06, 2007, 12:15:24 PM

The moment home-made fuel bites into one-one-thousandth of a percent of gasoline sales, it will become very, very illegal.

For one thing, making things illegal never stopped them from happening (it just relocates them to Canada for a while). You're calling for n**ionalization of gasoline and that requires laws to be changed, I think that legalizing something as trivial and possibly beneficial in the long run as home alcohol production would be a much better law to institute.

milifist · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:52:22 PM »

It already is legal (in the US). It is just not practical. Home fuel production simply will not reach a level that is threatening enough for the oil companies to push criminalizing it.

Evonus · « **Reply #9 on:** April 06, 2007, 01:30:54 PM »

The reason why big oil will never be nationalized is because the people who run big oil run the government. Even if Bush wasn't in the oval office Big Oil funds many campaigns. I'd say, unfortunately, Big Oil will be the last thing ever nationalized, because of the way this country is now running.

milifist · « **Reply #10 on:** April 06, 2007, 02:02:19 PM »

Cite your source.

Even if the US had some legal basis for nationalization of the oil companies, it wouldn't happen because the US isn't financially capable of providing compensation.

Banshee · « **Reply #11 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:26:41 PM »

Personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who complain about gas prices. This country is already far too dependant on petroleum products. The rising gas prices couldn't do anything but spur an increasing interest in alternative fuel sources, carpooling, mass transit, and other less-polluting forms of travel. Prices aren't going to get any better, and it's time people start thinking about a world where driving is a luxury and a privilege, not a right. Nationalization will just create an artificial scarcity rather than solve any problems. And, as BizB already said, Big Oil funds are in far too much of government policy to make measures like nationalization possible, much less feasible.

Quote from: BizB on April 06, 2007, 12:41:02 PM

1. Gas prices, while continuing to rise, have kept pace with inflation over the past XX years.

Indeed, and I'd like to further add that most people realize that gas prices are very predictable. Highest in summer, lowest in winter. Not hard to figure out when its going to get tougher on the wallet--if you can't give up your car, just budget accordingly.

I could write more but I'm too tired to think clearly right now, and I'm sure this all sounds incoherent enough as it is.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #12 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:36:28 PM »

The rising gas prices will be good practice for the population for when we run out of oil entirely.

BizB · « **Reply #13 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:37:53 PM »

Won't ever happen.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #14 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:39:41 PM »

Last I checked it's a finite resource...

milifist · « **Reply #15 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:47:55 PM »

No. It is a renewable resource. It just takes a long time to renew it.

We use oil because it is currently the most cost effective source of energy for our needs. When supply goes down, cost goes up. However, when the cost of oil exceeds the cost of alternative energy sources, then there will be a shift away from oil. Oil demand will drop, and with it oil production. The market will drive the change.

BizB · « **Reply #16 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:49:30 PM »

That's still undetermined. There are scientists who've put forth the theory that oil forms in a set of natural and ongoing geologic interactions five to 15 miles below Earth’s surface.
http://www.rense.com/general67/oils.htm

However, even if I accept your premise that oil is a finite resource, we will still never run out. At some point, it will become too expensive to recover the cost of extraction and we will abandon oil as an energy source.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:57:21 PM »

If nationalization of petroleum in the US ever happens, Joe Consumer won't see much difference in the grand scheme of things.

You can't legislate the laws of supply and demand, so those foreign sources from whom we obtain a good portion of our petroleum will still be selling to us at a price that demand dictates, even if the Big Oil Companies doing business here are forced into price restrictions in the US markets.

The difference must be made up somehow if the supply is to continue, which means it will have to be made up by subsidies.

Guess who pays for those?

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2007, 04:39:24 PM »

Quote from: BizB on April 06, 2007, 03:49:30 PM

That's still undetermined. There are scientists who've put forth the theory that oil forms in a set of natural and ongoing geologic interactions five to 15 miles below Earth’s surface.
http://www.rense.com/general67/oils.htm

However, even if I accept your premise that oil is a finite resource, we will still never run out. At some point, it will become too expensive to recover the cost of extraction and we will abandon oil as an energy source.

I'm sorry, that's exactly what I meant to say. It's not really finite, but yeah like Milifist said it just takes millions of years (I'm going with what I think is the consensus) to turn old biomatter into oil.

jeee · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2007, 04:49:00 PM »

How much do for a litre of gas ? (gasoline that is) ?

BizB · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2007, 04:52:48 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on April 06, 2007, 04:39:24 PM

I'm sorry, that's exactly what I meant to say. It's not really finite, but yeah like Milifist said it just takes millions of years (I'm going with what I think is the consensus) to turn old biomatter into oil.

The article I linked said the exact opposite...

Quote

To begin with, oil is not a fossil fuel. This is a theory put forth by 18th century scientists. Within 50 years, Germany and France's scientists had attacked the theory of petroleum's biological roots. In fact, oil is abiotic, not the product of long decayed biological matter. And oil, for better or for worse, is not a non-renewable resource. It, like coal, and natural gas, replenishes from sources within the mantle of earth. This is the real and true science of oil. Read all about it.

ivan · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:08:37 PM »

Dang, what a day to get slammed at work!

I'll have to revisit this later, but I just want to clarify that I am not calling for or endorsing nationalization of the petrolium industry. What I am suggesting is that the idea of nationalizing oil is becoming less offensive to Americans, and that an argument can be made that nationalization of oil would further the cause of individual freedom.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #22 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:10:03 PM »

Biz, I was referring to the part where you said that "at some point, it will become too expensive to recover the cost of extraction and we will abandon oil as an energy source".

Demosthenes · « **Reply #23 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:11:43 PM »

Quote from: ivan on April 06, 2007, 05:08:37 PM

Dang, what a day to get slammed at work!

I'll have to revisit this later, but I just want to clarify that I am not calling for or endorsing nationalization of the petrolium industry. What I am suggesting is that the idea of nationalizing oil is becoming less offensive to Americans, and that an argument can be made that nationalization of oil would further the cause of individual freedom.

I didn't think you were... in fact I agree with you that it's becoming attractive to some in this country as a potential reaction (I say "reaction" rather than "solution").

An argument could be made that nationalization of petroleum in the US would further the cause of individual freedom... but it'd be just as flawed as any argument in favour of nationalization of any commodity furthering the cause of individual freedom.

Total government control of a market eliminates freedom, it can never increase it.

jeee · « **Reply #24 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:17:29 PM »

For what I can check you folks pay around 2,50$ for a gallon ? If so then gas prices are twice as high over here. It's quite a pressure on the daily budget so we have all kind of "green" energy discounts. Do they have such things in the US ?

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Author Topic: The "n" word (Read 12876 times)