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Author Topic: Bin Laden is Dead  (Read 7993 times)

TheJudge

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Bin Laden is Dead
« on: May 02, 2011, 01:04:51 AM »

So, that should bring interesting discussions. What do you think about the news? How will it change things, if it does? I guess that makes a few brownie points for Obama. I wonder what kind of retalliation attempts we'll see.
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Vespertine

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 01:59:18 AM »

You ask how does it change things?  My reaction: In the immediate, life just got a whole lot more dangerous.  I tried to feel joy over the news, really, I did.  All I ended up feeling was sad and apprehensive over what happens next.  Someone is going to have to prove a retaliatory point.  I just wonder how big a point they're going to try to prove.
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Banshee

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 06:57:23 AM »

Huge PR victory, but I wonder how much will actually change.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2011, 09:28:18 AM »

Who's gonna take over the grainy avant-garde video scene now?!
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2011, 11:53:16 AM »

I'm legitimately curious how much of a leader/prominent figure the bearded dialysis scarecrow wizard still was in the "terror community" (if such a thing even exists as such).
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2011, 12:00:33 PM »

I'm not sure about the whole retaliation thing.  Is it possible for these people to hate us any more than they already did?  If they were going to plan something, they'd already be planning it.

Hope I'm right anyway.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2011, 12:14:46 PM »

Well, "terror mastermind" Bin Laden couldn't even plan on not getting shot to death in Pakistan and then being fed to fish, so what chance do they have?
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pbsaurus

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 12:46:06 PM »

This is the US now condoning assassination.  If we were a civil country, we would have captured him, extradited him, and given him a fair trial (and if we were civilized we wouldn't have the option of death penalty).

My other thought, is what is Congress, EB, Supremes, etc. up to in the next week or so that news like this will overshadow it?  Oh yeah, debt ceiling is one.  Now Congress can raise it to a couple quadrillion and no one would even notice.

OK so we shot and killed a feeble old man on dialysis.  How about we start talking about the real domestic issues we have?  How about we pull out of all these foreign wars? 

I'm done.  Media free for the foreseeable future now.

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2011, 02:24:28 PM »

I'm with you, Pb.  For the first time in my adult life, I've lately intentionally elected to avoid the news and I've been making a point to NOT get involved in politics.

It has to stop somewhere, and I'm tired of getting mad and yelling at my TV.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2011, 02:41:37 PM »

I'm with you, Pb.

I try and stay out of the Political Opinions thread unless I have something more to add to the discussion, but I'm not sure if I could have put it any better. One of my first thoughts last night when seeing this was "Hm.. I should see what other news / events are coming up this is trying to make us forget about."
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2011, 03:07:47 PM »

I find it sad that so many of us have that level of cynicism to automatically think that.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2011, 05:07:26 PM »

My own cynical gut reaction was, "Well, Obama just won reelection in a walk."
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 11:26:38 PM »

My own cynical gut reaction was, "Well, Obama just won reelection in a walk."
This.

It has the feel of a PR roll. It can't matter that much, after ten years I'm sure they've got a hierarchy that survive an assassination. Really. But Obama really needs the brownie points.
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ivan

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2011, 03:03:42 AM »

It's very simple.

Obama has followed through on his promise to neutralize OBL. Let's not forget that President Bush devalued the hunt for OBL, stating that it's not a priority. Right or wrong, Bush backed away from the hunt. Let's also not forget that one of Obama's pledges during his candidacy was to pursue the elimination of OBL and Al Qaeda. The right wing blogosphere was deriding Obama just a few months ago for not following through on this.

So let's give credit where credit is due. I find it distasteful to revel in a person's death, but this death has been called for by the American people for 10 years. So I'm not saying we should revel in it. I'm saying we should revel in something else: This is a rare occasion when we are privy to a special operations success. Normally, we only hear of spec ops missions when they go horribly wrong. The successes are classified. But here, for once, we can see what the humans wearing those high tech super fucking spectrum goggles space age rappelling out of stealth helicopters American Ninjas can do. I mean, how many times have we blurted out something like "we can put a goddam man on the moon, but we can't take out one pathetic jihadist holed up in a cave thumbing his nose at us!"

Well, now we have. This operation was a tribute not only to the team that carried it out, but to every man and woman who has ever served, to every engineer who worked to push our technology to the limits, to human ingenuity and creativity, however one might think it's misapplied, and, yes, to the teachers of America! I mean, those dudes were awesome. Not one American was harmed. And I give full credit to Mr. Obama for the vision, as Commander in Chief, to pull all this together.

Obama did exactly what he said he'd do. He pledged to do it as a candidate. He made it a top priority from day one after becoming President. It took 2 and a half years, and a concerted effort on the part of the military and the CIA and who knows what else. Thinking that this was timed as an October Surprise is Truther and Birther territory.


Obama in 2008:
Quote
...We cannot tolerate a sanctuary for terrorists who threaten America’s homeland and Pakistan’s stability. If we have actionable intelligence about high-level al Qaeda targets in Pakistan’s border region, we must act if Pakistan will not or cannot. Senator Clinton, Senator McCain, and President Bush have all distorted and derided this position, suggesting that I would invade or bomb Pakistan. This is politics, pure and simple. My position, in fact, is the same pragmatic policy that all three of them have belatedly – if tacitly – acknowledged is one we should pursue. Indeed, it was months after I called for this policy that a top al Qaeda leader was taken out in Pakistan by an American aircraft. And remember that the same three individuals who now criticize me for supporting a targeted strike on the terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attacks, are the same three individuals that supported an invasion of Iraq – a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

It is precisely this kind of political point-scoring that has opened up the security gap in this country. We have a security gap when candidates say they will follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of hell, but refuse to follow him where he actually goes. What we need in our next Commander in Chief is not a stubborn refusal to acknowledge reality or empty rhetoric about 3AM phone calls. What we need is a pragmatic strategy that focuses on fighting our real enemies, rebuilding alliances, and renewing our engagement with the world’s people.

I refuse to revel in the death of any person. But... Bin Laden was a ratbastard, and I'm glad someone finally took him out. And I'm extra super glad he was taken out in a fashion that was pure AWESOME.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 11:18:09 AM by ivan »
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TheJudge

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2011, 06:58:23 AM »

Guys, I made an error. I meant to name this thread "Bin Laden is NOT dead".

I watched a press conference yesterday where John Brennan talked about the operation. He spoke very well. He was calm. He knew just how much to say and when not to say anything. He did it with tact. However, I noticed a shift in his demeanor/non verbal when the whole "burial at sea" came up. It was like he wanted to get that part to go away, but on the other hand he didn't want to rush it because it would look odd.

As he spoke, the idea the US could have Bin Laden in custody while everyone thinks he's dead became a posibility I had to consider. Utilising the muslim law to justify a quick disposal of the body, and conviently opting for a burial at sea, where no body could ever be extracted by anyone, was pure brilliance. Imagine for a second that you have a man held up somewhere that no one knows about. He has no rights. No protections. No nothing. No body is seeking him out. He's just completely defensless. If they want to torture him, they can. If they want to suck his dick, they can. He'd have zero control over his life. What a shit life that would be. I think this is a real possibility. How could we ever know? This is something they could arrange without too much effort under the circumstances of this particular operation. Unless they release clear evidence of his death, this will always be in the back of my mind. DNA match confirms they have him. It does not confirm if he is dead or alive.

Now let' slook at the bigger picture. I've shares similar views before so this might be a boring read for some of you!

Forget this whole Bin Laden thing. He is one man. Sure, a powerfull influencual man, but his organisation is based on hatred and the will of his God. His death only fuels this and his followers will be even more determined in the long run. This is just a short term blow. When governement officials state that "Al Qaeda is a thing of the past", that's an attempt at utilizing the power of media to demoralise them further. It's a message that the US governement wants to spread. And frankly, I find it idiotic. Today it's called Al Qaeda, tomorrow it will be something else.

How about we get down the the root cause of all this bullshit: Religion. I hate the idea of organised religion in general. While some aspects of religion are positive, religious systems have been the cause of many wars and acts of unimaginable cruelty througout history. When I was young, I was raised to beleive a certain system. It is only when I was older that I truely questioned my faith, something that I was programmed not to do because that's how that system is designed. In doing so, and in studying other religions, my eyes were opened. I realized what the most plausible reasons for religion to exist is: it is a man made fabrication designed to control behaviors. It's a intricate belief system in many ways, yet so simple in others. It is an extremly well designed and that's why we can't seem to shake it off.

Men will kill in the name of a God. Bin Laden is just one of them. I don't know if he truely beleives it, or if he consciously uses the system to manipulate others to do his bidding, what ever his true motives are. It's irrelevant. Either way, religion is the source of his power. Devotes will make significant comitements, personal sacrifices, even give up their own lives because they are driven by faith. There will never be global peace for as long as there is blind faith.

My take on it is simple. It's one thing to believe something. It's another to impose those beliefs on others. Ironically, in making that statement I'm trying to convince you of something. The difference is I can accept that you may not agree. That's the line I don't cross.

Recently, two Jehova's Witnesses came knocking at my door trying to sell me their bullshit. I asked this: "I like peperoni pizza. I think it's the best kind of pizza a person can get. There's a lot of different kinds of pizzas out there, but peperoni is the best as far as I'm concerned. Should I go knock at your door and try to shove a slice down your throat?" I have a problem with force feeding. Honestly, I pitty those individuals who fell victim to the system. What a waste of their existence.

The US is as worse as the Middle East by the way. The US has often been described to be an arrogant nation. I disagree. The US is a christian nation, and their leaders make decisions based on personal faith. They impose their belief system, because that's how the system works. Most of them are compeltely blind to this. They don't even realize that this is happening so in that sense it's not arrogance but ignorance. Religion and governement is very meshed.

My distaste for religion grew even stronger when I developed an interest in astronomy a few years ago. When I began studying the universe, concepts of parallel universe, of 10 dimensions, of time, pre big bang theories, and other things, it was then that I realized what few of us accept to aknowlegde: We are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

I could write a whole lot about this, and how I came to that conclusion. I'll stick with the religion bashing for now . For as long as their have been civilisations, there have been Gods. Why would Jesus suddenly be "the one" out of all of them? (Or his father I should say). Why would Allah be the one? Why do people base their entire "code of conduct" upon stories that cannot be verified, validated, and are in all likeliness a fabrication, or perhaps distorted and missintepretted tale. It just baffles me that this level of ignorance is still so wide spread across the world, including modern society. What will it take for people to snap out and realise that:

1. They were raised to beleive something so they beleive it
2. Those beliefs require that you transmit such beliefs to the next generation
3. Those beliefs rely heavilly on guilt and on fear, and offer promisses of reward
4. Most people cling to these beliefs because it's convenient

Let me explain my last point, then I'm done ranting! lol

Let's take christianity for example. Why do people become "members" of a religious community, other than the first three points I mentioned? Because the blind faith satisfies a very basic need. Death is pretty much a significant components of most religions. How many simply "believe" that there is life after death? Most of us are not comfortable with the unknowns of death. It's convenient to believe that it doesn't "end" here. Being part of the religious system fills that basic "need to exist". But no one can deny that we just don't know. All we can do is make a choice to beleive or not to beleive. It's the only kind of control we have, and it's very artificial. A smart person cannot ignore the possibility that it may just end, and there is nothing else. Most people cannot accept that possibility because it means their life has no purpose. Guess what? That could be the case.

That is why religion is such a powerful and dangerous tool. People will do horrible things in the name of faith because they temselves REFUSE to acknowledge the possibility (and probability) that we are simply irrelevant.

Take away the blind faith, and you take away the power that is wielded by people like Bin Laden, Bush, and so many others. In my eyes, they are both guilty of the same thing. There is no such thing as absolute right or wrong in this world. It is purely relative and where you stand depends on where you sit.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 07:15:01 AM by TheJudge »
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Min

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2011, 08:29:58 AM »

This operation was a tribute not only to the team that carried it out, but to every man and woman who has ever served, to every engineer who worked to push our technology to the limits, to human ingenuity and creativity,

Imagine what we could do if all our teachers didn't suck!
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2011, 11:17:06 AM »

Imagine what we could do if all our teachers didn't suck!

Fixed my post. ^
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2011, 07:59:42 PM »

I appears that my opinion on the event it self are already well represented by pbsaurus, ivan and TheJudge.

I imagine that his death brings closure to a lot of people's life, though I think that people who actually fell better about a loss of a loved one because of this are rather shallow minded.
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TheJudge

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2011, 09:11:34 PM »

This made me laugh

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xolik

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2011, 07:26:28 PM »

Just like 0bamao to order the assassination of a beloved, world-renowned religious activist.
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ivan

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2011, 10:20:23 AM »

Just like 0bamao to order the assassination of a beloved, world-renowned religious activist.

WHAR DETH CERTiFiCT WHAR OBAMAO

Nice to see you around, Xol.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2011, 11:56:15 AM »

Hate memes
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2011, 12:08:21 PM »

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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2011, 12:46:27 PM »

Stupid
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