Topic: This 13 year old has the biggest balls of them all! (Read 26015 times)

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #50 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:04:19 PM »

Summary of the conversation so far:

She has the right to stand!
No!
Yes!
No!
Yes!
No!
Yes!
No! It is disrespectful!
Yes! That doesn't matter!
No!
Yes!
No! And I am more patriotic than you!

etc...

Vespertine · « **Reply #51 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:31:20 PM »

Quote from: Crystalmonkey

Summary of the conversation so far:

She has the right to stand!
No!
Yes!
No!
Yes!
No!
Yes!
No! It is disrespectful!
Yes! That doesn't matter!
No!
Yes!
No! And I am more patriotic than you!

etc...

Thank you for that completely irrelevant post. Without it, I don't think I'd have been able to figure out what was going on in this thread.

Get funny or piss off!

Vespertine · « **Reply #52 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:38:52 PM »

Quote from: Rico

<snip>
I'm hearing people bitch about how this girl is such a hero for showing disrespect to her countrymen. Make no mistake I do wholely believe that it was disrespect. What's her beliefs that keep her from admitting her allegience to this country? What religion does she prescribe to that says she's not allowed to do so? When a Jehova's Witness refuses to say that Pledge, I respect him for that. Some people will fault him, but it's his faith. Ask him why he refuses to say it and he'll even tell you. Ask this girl, and all you'll hear is some one trying to get attention.
</snip>

Rico, If you go back and read the article, you'll notice that this girl did tell the principal that it was against her religion. You say that you respect a Jehova's Witness for not participating. Since the article doesn't state what this girl's religion is, maybe she is a Jehova's Witness. Bottom line, if you're claiming that she showed disrespect toward her countrymen, you should know that I, as one of her countrymen, do not feel as though I have been disrespected.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #53 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:46:12 PM »

What's this thing with disrespected? Why the fuck would any self-confident individual care whether someone respected them or not? You sound just like the side-show rejects from the Rikki Lake or Jerry Springer show. I feel sorry for you for going to such effort to be offended by someone's actions.

reimero · « **Reply #54 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:47:50 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus

What's this thing with disrespected? Why the fuck would any self-confident individual care whether someone respected them or not? You sound just like the side-show rejects from the Rikki Lake or Jerry Springer show. I feel sorry for you for going to such effort to be offended by someone's actions.

Hey! I don't think you're respecting respect nearly enough!

pbsaurus · « **Reply #55 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:51:02 PM »

Quote from: reimero

Quote from: pbsaurus
What's this thing with disrespected? Why the fuck would any self-confident individual care whether someone respected them or not? You sound just like the side-show rejects from the Rikki Lake or Jerry Springer show. I feel sorry for you for going to such effort to be offended by someone's actions.

Hey! I don't think you're respecting respect nearly enough!

Actually I don't. If respect wants to be respected it needs to earn my respect and that would require it to jump through quite a few hoops.

Vespertine · « **Reply #56 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:51:38 PM »

Quote

Cat, you attacked my use of my service. I responded. I'd hardly call it irrelevant.

You're absolutely right, Judge. She has that right, and she won't be arrested for it. To me it's ALL about respect. She's basically demonstrated that she has none. It would have been very simple for her to even just stand, but she chose not to. If you go to an.... I'm not sure what they call an Islamic service, but say you went to one. Wouldn't you keep your voice down, and not make a disturbance? I would. I don't believe as they do, but I have enough respect for them, and the great people that have lived and died in their religion to observe some form of just decorum. It's not comformity in the least.

There's a major difference in the scenario you describe and Rachel's situation. The person in your hypothetical chooses to go to a religious service. On the other hand, Rachel didn't choose to go to school. She is, by law, forced to attend school up until a certain age or grade level (depending on how the law is written). Rachel is also subjected, by law, to hearing the pledge every damn day. Again, she has no choice in the matter. It's not like she walked into a totally foreign situation (like a mosque) stripped down and started ranting and raving. Now that would be disrespectful. Standing up for her beliefs, religious or otherwise, is not disrespectful. In a different post, you say that with freedoms come responsibility. I fully believe that it was (and is) her responsibility to stand up for what she believes in, and she did just that. To call her disrespectful is inaccurate. Her method of protest was very respectful and very responsible. She sat there quietly and never once 'made a scene'. I do applaud this girl for standing up for herself and doing it the way she did.

reimero · « **Reply #57 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:54:46 PM »

The ones making the scene were the ones who wanted her to conform. Therein lies the problem: she wasn't standing up for anything or trying to make a point; it was the teacher, and in that regard, the teacher was COMPLETELY out of line.

yxorpbp · « **Reply #58 on:** September 14, 2004, 05:15:05 PM »

Yup, that's one of the big problems with public education. It pushes conformity, stifling critical thought.

xolik · « **Reply #59 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:08:48 AM »

Quote from: yxorpbp

Yup, that's one of the big problems with public education. It pushes conformity, stifling critical thought.

Not neccessarily. If you can articulate your point of view well enough, you'll find others, including your instructor, more receptive to your ideas. Just don't expect them to change.

Hi, Vespertine! Still e-friends? *makes puppy dog eyes*

Gillivray · « **Reply #60 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:26:42 AM »

Is it just me or do some of you enjoy the way people "buck" the system? I mean, it seems we call it a right, but some people seem to always want to go against the grain. Some said they applaud what this girl has done. But if she would have been at an anti-abortion rally (standing up for her rights), would we be having this conversation? It's just seems some groups do things not to exercise their rights, but to get attention.

Rico · « **Reply #61 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:22:09 AM »

Demo, excelent point. The teacher really compounded the situation. Had she only waited until after the fact, and approached the girl privately, this would not have been blown into nearly as big a deal. I really do think that the teacher handled the situation poorly.

As far as the girl, she didn't mention religion until she got the principal, from what I understand. Had she stated that fact right off, it would have been over and done with. It really sounds to me like she was trying to get attention, then came up with something by the time she got to the principal. Maybe that's not the way it happened, but it just seems that way to me.

...and as far as me getting beat up because I pointed out that more sailors and airmen die training than in actual combat, I doubt it. Most marines and soldiers are proud of the fact that they chose a branch that offered them the privledge of paying the ultimate price for their country. That, and some of us just wanted the chance to shoot some one. I was out of line, though, and said as much to Demo privately. Same goes to Law, who if I remember correctly served in the National Guard? He's probably served the country more directly and in better roles than any of us active guys. The Guard get to actually go out and serve in communities after disasters and to help go in before hand and help prepare. In some ways, that's even better than getting shot at. Certainly more beneficial, anyway.

hackess · « **Reply #62 on:** September 15, 2004, 07:37:29 AM »

Quote from: Gillivray

Is it just me or do some of you enjoy the way people "buck" the system? I mean, it seems we call it a right, but some people seem to always want to go against the grain. Some said they applaud what this girl has done. But if she would have been at an anti-abortion rally (standing up for her rights), would we be having this conversation? It's just seems some groups do things not to exercise their rights, but to get attention.

If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally, she has every right to be there. I would not chastise her for exercising that right. Just as she has every right to choose to not stand during the Pledge.

That said, you are right that some groups do things to get attention. The radicals always paint the rest of us with a bad stroke.

hackess · « **Reply #63 on:** September 15, 2004, 07:42:43 AM »

Quote from: Rico

As far as the girl, she didn't mention religion until she got the principal, from what I understand. Had she stated that fact right off, it would have been over and done with.

As Demo said:

Quote

That girl's reasons are her business.

She doesn't need to justify herself to exercise her rights, no more than do I have to justify myself to exercise mine, or you yours, or anyone theirs.

Quote from: Rico

It really sounds to me like she was trying to get attention, then came up with something by the time she got to the principal. Maybe that's not the way it happened, but it just seems that way to me.

She sat during the Pledge for three days before the teacher made a scene out of it. If she was just sitting quietly, how can it possibly be misconstrued as disrespect for the beliefs of her fellow classmates?

hackess · « **Reply #64 on:** September 15, 2004, 07:56:40 AM »

Quote from: yxorpbp

Yup, that's one of the big problems with public education. It pushes conformity, stifling critical thought.

You should try private parochial education. *shudder*

Law · « **Reply #65 on:** September 15, 2004, 08:20:11 AM »

I was in the Air Force actually, along with avalanche. Yet, I still got to go places where people wanted to kill me

Quote from: rico

was pointing out that those of us in the Army joined this branch because we have no problems dying for our country. Not that the others do, but how many Airmen or Sailors have died in conflicts in the past 30 years as compared to soldiers and Marines?

Quote from: rico

and as far as me getting beat up because I pointed out that more sailors and airmen die training than in actual combat, I doubt it. Most marines and soldiers are proud of the fact that they chose a branch that offered them the privledge of paying the ultimate price for their country.

Nice backpedal.

xolik · « **Reply #66 on:** September 15, 2004, 09:13:14 AM »

Happy break!

Ok, back to ranting.

Gillivray · « **Reply #67 on:** September 15, 2004, 09:44:58 AM »

While we applaud her right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Alligence, has anyone thought about this girls freedom of Religion right? You can not honestly tell me that at 13 years old, (or before) she made the decision to become a Jehova Witness?

What are your thoughts on this?

"If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally". This would be a an entirely different debate.

hackess · « **Reply #68 on:** September 15, 2004, 09:53:36 AM »

Quote from: Gillivray

While we applaud her right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Alligence, has anyone thought about this girls freedom of Religion right? You can not honestly tell me that at 13 years old, (or before) she made the decision to become a Jehova Witness?

What are your thoughts on this?

It was not stated what religion she aligned with. I, nor you, have no idea if she was a Jehovah's Witness or Muslim or, Pepeforbid

, atheist.

Quote

"If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally". This would be a an entirely different debate.

Why would it have to be? We're talking about rights in general. She has every right to be at a pro-life rally or to be sitting during the Pledge. I don't care if you think it's "disrespectful" or offensive. You don't have to agree with her, you just should recognize her right to do so.

reimero · « **Reply #69 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:08:48 PM »

Gillivray, it seems to me you're just bent out of shape because a girl won't conform with the level of patriotism you feel ought to be present in an American. You're obfuscating the real issue with a lot of emotional "what ifs" focusing on other emotional issues which may or may not be relevant (particularly considering that most abortions are carried out on private property where trespassing laws apply, whereas public schools are government-owned property and thereby bound by law to uphold certain freedoms. If this were a parochial school, your argument would have more weight.) The simple fact is that in public places, no one can be compelled to say a prayer or recite the Pledge of Allegiance or other similar activities. They can be precluded from being disruptive, but inactivity is inherently non-disruptive.

Your patriotism is admirable but I think you're allowing your emotions about this country to cloud the basic fundamental facts about this country. The girl did nothing wrong. The teacher was in the wrong here. End of story.

Gillivray · « **Reply #70 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:11:55 PM »

I do in fact recognize her right not to stand during the Pledge. I think it boils down to change. I grew up in the Baseball, Apple Pie and Chevorlet America. I just wish our forefathers had been a little more precise in what they meant were our protected freedoms. Everyone has a different interpetation of what the Constitution is. I was raised up to respect this country and simply saying the Pledge of Alligence is one way to show my respect for this country. So from where I am standing, I think it is disrespectful. But it is just my opinion and opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one. LOL

Gillivray · « **Reply #71 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:16:00 PM »

Quote from: reimero

Your patriotism is admirable but I think you're allowing your emotions about this country to cloud the basic fundamental facts about this country.

Funny thing is, my wife and I did most of our house in antiques from the Americana era. All red, white and blue. We had our house appraised recently and when the appraiser showed up, she was more interested in all the Americana stuff than appraising our house. ROFL

hackess · « **Reply #72 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:17:45 PM »

Are you going to address your own questions?

Quote

While we applaud her right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Alligence, has anyone thought about this girls freedom of Religion right? You can not honestly tell me that at 13 years old, (or before) she made the decision to become a Jehova Witness?

What are your thoughts on this?

"If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally". This would be a an entirely different debate.

Law · « **Reply #73 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:24:27 PM »

Quote from: Gillivray

I just wish our forefathers had been a little more precise in what they meant were our protected freedoms. Everyone has a different interpetation of what the Constitution is. I was raised up to respect this country and simply saying the Pledge of Alligence is one way to show my respect for this country. So from where I am standing, I think it is disrespectful. But it is just my opinion and opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one. LOL

The Pledge of Allegiance is a knee-jerk reaction to the rise of Communism in the 1950's (the "under God" line being added because "godless communists" wouldn't be able to say it

). It has nothing to do with ordinary patriotism and certainly nothing to do with the founding fathers or the Constitution. One of the earliest things the Continental Congress did was to overturn the oath of allegiance to King George and refused to implement an oath to the new President. I think they would be mainly horrified if they knew that some people believe you're not an American unless you make a public pledge of it.

avalanche · « **Reply #74 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:37:02 PM »

Well, duh. They would have pledged to a state, not a flag.

In those days, you were a Virginian, first... American second.

*sigh*
The good ol' days.

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Author Topic: This 13 year old has the biggest balls of them all! (Read 26015 times)