Topic: Immigration (Read 16098 times)

TheJudge · « **Reply #25 on:** June 07, 2006, 10:22:23 AM »

Peter, I think I should introduce you to my friend. He'd really get along with someone like you.

Peter, Punctuation.
Ponctuation, Peter.

I have to go, but you two get get to know each other a bit more.

Min · « **Reply #26 on:** June 07, 2006, 10:59:43 AM »

Seriously. I can't read posts like that. And if they aint being read, there aint much use for them being here.

ivan · « **Reply #27 on:** June 07, 2006, 11:01:24 AM »

Quote from: Peter on June 07, 2006, 10:09:33 AM

[unintelligible] learn a bit of english [unintelligible]

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #28 on:** June 07, 2006, 12:09:51 PM »

Quote from: Peter on June 07, 2006, 10:09:33 AM

I am canada and I go with what the USA are doing sure the Mexicans are fludding USA but thay are doing it rong yes I know the system is hard to get in but thay should come to USA learn a bit of english hafe to do a test and you can come to USA it's so pointless just playing cat and mouse no one will win i hope that would happen one day for USA I would be angery if I went to a store or had a person working for me who has no english! just hearing doing rong thay do try thear hardist but its not the ppl that are rong thay are trying to do well but manny are doing rong as well so its very hard but i personly think the prossese should be faster USA was built on imagrents trying to run away from Relgious countreys along with canada so i find it kinda funny thats just my 2 cents and I am going from the first post of the site not flaring anyone that could have posted b4 me

ARGRHGARGHRGHERSHGRE

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #29 on:** June 07, 2006, 12:13:00 PM »

Oops, I think I actually had a seizure from quoting the above post.

TheJudge · « **Reply #30 on:** June 07, 2006, 12:18:11 PM »

I think it's roman. Julius Seizure style.

Vespertine · « **Reply #31 on:** June 07, 2006, 01:12:14 PM »

Quote from: Peter on June 07, 2006, 10:09:33 AM

I am canada and I go with what the USA are doing sure the Mexicans are fludding USA but thay are doing it rong yes I know the system is hard to get in but thay should come to USA learn a bit of english hafe to do a test and you can come to USA it's so pointless just playing cat and mouse no one will win i hope that would happen one day for USA I would be angery if I went to a store or had a person working for me who has no english! just hearing doing rong thay do try thear hardist but its not the ppl that are rong thay are trying to do well but manny are doing rong as well so its very hard but i personly think the prossese should be faster USA was built on imagrents trying to run away from Relgious countreys along with canada so i find it kinda funny thats just my 2 cents and I am going from the first post of the site not flaring anyone that could have posted b4 me

Like seriously, you're a regular who opened a new account and spewed unitelligble garbage just to screw with the rest of us, right? Right? RIGHT?

pb, is this you f-ing around?

pbsaurus · « **Reply #32 on:** June 07, 2006, 01:47:09 PM »

Not me and I'm sure the mods could verify by IP. Besides this guy is posting while I'm still in the water, long before I get to work.

TheJudge · « **Reply #33 on:** June 07, 2006, 01:47:45 PM »

YEAH it's PB!

pbsaurus · « **Reply #34 on:** June 07, 2006, 01:48:59 PM »

RDRR gravy-lover.

TheJudge · « **Reply #35 on:** June 07, 2006, 01:51:15 PM »

Hey! Did you just smite me?

pbsaurus · « **Reply #36 on:** June 07, 2006, 02:10:55 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge on June 07, 2006, 01:51:15 PM

Hey! Did you just smite me?

But of course

Chris · « **Reply #37 on:** June 07, 2006, 08:11:41 PM »

Quote from: Peter on June 07, 2006, 10:09:33 AM

I am canada and I go with what the USA are doing sure the Mexicans are fludding USA but thay are doing it rong yes I know the system is hard to get in but thay should come to USA learn a bit of english hafe to do a test and you can come to USA it's so pointless just playing cat and mouse no one will win i hope that would happen one day for USA I would be angery if I went to a store or had a person working for me who has no english! just hearing doing rong thay do try thear hardist but its not the ppl that are rong thay are trying to do well but manny are doing rong as well so its very hard but i personly think the prossese should be faster USA was built on imagrents trying to run away from Relgious countreys along with canada so i find it kinda funny thats just my 2 cents and I am going from the first post of the site not flaring anyone that could have posted b4 me

hackess · « **Reply #38 on:** June 07, 2006, 08:12:34 PM »

Ow.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #39 on:** June 07, 2006, 09:11:47 PM »

ROFL!

I am so stealing that. That's classic.

ivan · « **Reply #40 on:** June 08, 2006, 11:58:33 AM »

The LP take on it.

Free and open immigration. Win-win.

ivan · « **Reply #41 on:** June 08, 2006, 02:35:57 PM »

The Ask a Mexican archive.

ivan · « **Reply #42 on:** June 08, 2006, 02:44:58 PM »

From one of Gustavo's columns (Ask a Mexican, linked above):

Quote

Dear Mexican,
Why don’t Mexicans have enough gratitude for America to learn to speak English? Are they too stupid? Too lazy? What—they can’t learn two or three words a day? Is this asking too much?
Took Four Years of Spanish in High School

Dear Gabacho,
The United States government shares your concerns, Took Four Years. Its Dillingham Commission released a 42-volume study on the waves of immigrants that concluded, “The new immigration as a class is far less intelligent than the old. . . . Generally speaking they are actuated in coming by different ideals, for the old immigration came to be a part of the country, while the new, in a large measure, comes with the intention of profiting, in a pecuniary way, by the superior advantages of the new world and then returning to the old country.” The Dillingham report went on to fault the new immigrants for their lack of assimilation and English skills, constantly contrasting them with earlier generations of immigrants, and urged clampdowns on immigration. Sound familiar? That’s because the Dillingham report appeared in 1911, and the inassimilable masses at the time were eastern and northern Europeans. The Dillingham Commission proves that the time-honored conservative anecdote that earlier generations of immigrants walked off the boats, chopped down their multisyllabic surnames and learned English immediately is bull-pinche-shit. American racism is a carousel—and here we are again.

Phife · « **Reply #43 on:** June 16, 2006, 11:16:07 AM »

Learn English. Come here legally. Do things we don't want to. Get healthcare and an education. And shutup!

Damn. That's not too much to ask!

ivan · « **Reply #44 on:** June 16, 2006, 11:23:07 AM »

Quote from: Phife on June 16, 2006, 11:16:07 AM

Learn English. Come here legally. Do things we don't want to. Get healthcare and an education. And shutup!

Damn. That's not too much to ask!

Actually, most do learn English, do come here legally, do do things we don't want to, do get healthcare and an education, and do shut up.

I'm telling you folks, this is a tempest in a teapot.

Vespertine · « **Reply #45 on:** June 16, 2006, 01:23:28 PM »

Quote from: Phife on June 16, 2006, 11:16:07 AM

<snip> Do things we don't want to. Get healthcare and an education. And shutup!

Damn. That's not too much to ask!

I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you right. I could have sworn you just implied that brown people should come here and only perform the menial tasks that you think are beneath you. Please, tell me that I misunderstood your post. Please tell me that you're not really the racist asshat that you are coming across as.

Phife · « **Reply #46 on:** June 16, 2006, 05:14:30 PM »

Jeez. Chill out.

My point is simple. We provide immigrants (even illegal ones!) with healthcare, education, and jobs (yes, most of them are one's that someone with two graduate degrees will not do...how many Ph.D.'s do you see cutting people's lawns for $20???); the least they can do is come over legally and learn basic communication in English.

But back to the point that you were so pissy about. I don't feel bad or unethical in anyway for saying that I don't want to be a day laborer. I have worked my ass off so that I can choose what career I want. There is nothing wrong with that. Now, if I didn't have a high school diploma, then landscaping, pool cleaning, etc would be fine with me.

There is nothing racist about that. And if you think that there is, then you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

To Ivan: I don't know where you are from, but after living in West and Central Texas and now in SoCal, I can tell you first hand that the vast majority of immigrants in the border states are illegal, don't speak English, and bitch about everything. I'm not sure what you are basing your opinions on, but clearly you are off-base with reality.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #47 on:** June 16, 2006, 07:42:06 PM »

Quote from: Phife on June 16, 2006, 05:14:30 PM

We provide immigrants (even illegal ones!) with healthcare, education, and jobs (yes, most of them are one's that someone with two graduate degrees will not do...how many Ph.D.'s do you see cutting people's lawns for $20???);

Are you that stupid... we have problems providing poor "AMERICANS" with healthcare, education, and jobs... That's the ENTIRE POINT BEHIND THE HEALTHCARE DEBATE!

And there are plenty of people with high educations doing low jobs, I know of one guy with 2 master's degrees who works at a bakery...

Quote from: Phife on June 16, 2006, 05:14:30 PM

...the least they can do is come over legally and learn basic communication in English.

How many countries do you go to and not bother learning the language, expecting the people there to understand you? Besides, as it's been pointed out, it's usually the later generations that learn English and other languages, and it's been this way for a while...

The national lanugage is NOT English by the way...

Quote from: Phife on June 16, 2006, 05:14:30 PM

But back to the point that you were so pissy about. I don't feel bad or unethical in anyway for saying that I don't want to be a day laborer. I have worked my ass off so that I can choose what career I want. There is nothing wrong with that. Now, if I didn't have a high school diploma, then landscaping, pool cleaning, etc would be fine with me. There is nothing racist about that. And if you think that there is, then you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

I wouldn't want to be a day laborer either, even if I didn't have any form of education, but you're missing the point. The problem is that you are saying they should only do what you consider to be shit jobs, and given that a majority of the people we are talking about are from the same place,(Mexico), and are therefore of the same ethnicity/race, you make it a race problem.

You don't hear people talking about European immigrants from Britian being forced to do the dishes and clean yards...

Quote from: Phife on June 16, 2006, 05:14:30 PM

To Ivan: I don't know where you are from, but after living in West and Central Texas and now in SoCal, I can tell you first hand that the vast majority of immigrants in the border states are illegal, don't speak English, and bitch about everything. I'm not sure what you are basing your opinions on, but clearly you are off-base with reality.

And your moral compass seems to be set on "bullshit", because a lot of the problem comes with immigration policy, the companies employing and exploiting workers, and racists. If people were fucking me over, I'd bitch about everything too.

Vespertine · « **Reply #48 on:** June 16, 2006, 10:42:41 PM »

Quote from: Phife on June 16, 2006, 05:14:30 PM

Jeez. Chill out.

My point is simple. We provide immigrants (even illegal ones!) with healthcare, education, and jobs (yes, most of them are one's that someone with two graduate degrees will not do...how many Ph.D.'s do you see cutting people's lawns for $20???); the least they can do is come over legally and learn basic communication in English.

But back to the point that you were so pissy about. I don't feel bad or unethical in anyway for saying that I don't want to be a day laborer. I have worked my ass off so that I can choose what career I want. There is nothing wrong with that. Now, if I didn't have a high school diploma, then landscaping, pool cleaning, etc would be fine with me.

There is nothing racist about that. And if you think that there is, then you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

To Ivan: I don't know where you are from, but after living in West and Central Texas and now in SoCal, I can tell you first hand that the vast majority of immigrants in the border states are illegal, don't speak English, and bitch about everything. I'm not sure what you are basing your opinions on, but clearly you are off-base with reality.

I think you're missing my (pissy) point. Just like you, I have no desire to be a day laborer. My entire point was about the sentence, "Do things we don't want to". Why can't "they" come here and go to college and become an engineer or a mathematician? Why must "they" be automatically relegated to the role of being your janitor? Whether you realize it or not, that sentence turned your entire post into a statement amounting to "I'm superior to them".

Regarding your point to Ivan, I call bullshit. I'm born and raised in Arizona. We have more than our share of both legal and illegal immigrants. Throughout my life, I've known or had some sort of contact with hundreds (or possibly thousands) of legal/illegal immigrants. I can't recall more than a few of them bitching about anything. The most common thing I see is that they are hard-working, they keep their heads down and their mouths shut. However, if, in your encounters with immigrants, you have exhibited the superiority complex that I'm seeing, I can understand why you would receive attitude in response to it.

Phife · « **Reply #49 on:** June 17, 2006, 04:36:04 AM »

Listen. I lived with a legal immigrant from Mexico (not Central America like most of the so-called "Mexican" immigrants that we are having issues with currently) for three years named Jesus (though he wanted us to call him Chuey or Jesse). Before his family came over they all learned how to speak English well enough to get by. Why is that important? Because their employeers, teachers, co-workers, McDonalds clerks, etc spoke English. Sure English is not the "official" language...but it is the most commonly used. What is our Bill of Rights written in? What about the constitution? And what about the naturalization test? Oh that's right, English! Jesse mastered English. And while finishing his liberal arts degree at a private college in Texas, he aced the naturalization test.

But believe you me, Jesse is the exception. I have lived in places where whites are the minority all of my life. I have been neighbors with minorities, legal immigrants, and loads and loads of illegal ones. My dad worked menial jobs most of his adult life. Why? Because he didn't have the education (or the drive) to do more for himself. So to call me a racist is stupid...especially since I never brought the race issue up...the two of you did.

And on top of all of that, for three straight summers in college I worked as a roofer (which has to be the shittiest job imaginable). I worked along side day laborers fresh from crossing the Rio Grande. They were nice guys and my Spanish was good enough for us to joke around together and for me to listen to their constant bitching about the U.S. But that job was something for me to do during the summer. It was not the end goal of my life. But it was the end goal for Carlos and Ignatio. That was the pinnacle of their careers. All they wanted to do was provide food for their kids so that they could grow up and do something more with their lives. Both were pushing 40 and were eventually hired on as full-time employees. From what my former roofing boss told me via email two weeks ago, both have become full-fledged citizens too.

But boy did they milk the system. And who's blaming them? The only pointed thing in my earlier post (which was not taken out of context) was the learning English bit (which they should do! And yes when I traveled to France and Germany I learned enough of their native tongues to get by. But if I ever planned on living and working there, becoming fluent would be a top priority). But back to my point in this paragraph; I don't blame illegals for taking advantage of the system. I would If I were in their shoes. They get free ER trips, free meds at the clinic, free dental work at the government subsidized offices, and free education for their kids at public (and sometimes private) schools and colleges.

I never intended to make it sound like immigrants are not as good as me. The fact that I have a different life experience should not be held against me. The fact that my goals for myself are higher than doing manual labor should not either. I worked my ass off to get where I am. My family was (and is) dirt poor and everything that I have and will accomplish has been by the sweat of my brow and the gears of my brain turning.

Jesse, Carlos, and Ignatio are exceptions to the rule. The vast majority of the immigrants that I have worked with and lived alongside never took the time to learn English, milked the system (and who is blaming them?), worked shitty jobs, and complained alot (and who is blaming them for that either! They have hard lives!).

My entire point is that immigrants should learn English. Why? Because it will open new doors for them. Just look at Jesse!

One more piece of antecdotal evidence. For the last year and a half I have been working for a non-profit organization that focuses on helping at-risk families. Part of my job was teahing and helping lead an ESL class for a particular middle school's parents. Out of the 250 or so Spanish speaking only households, only 10 people showed up for the class. Why is this? Some of them were working, but not all. Some used their kids as an excuse (even though we had day care available for free). But most of them simply did not care or see the value in it. They apparently would rather keep cleaing houses and landscaping as the vision for their career paths than trying to do something more. They apparently would rather continue living in the U.S. illegally instead of learning our language and becoming real citizens. They apparently would rather be of no help to their children when it comes to school work, teacher relations, etc instead of being the involved parents their children desperately need.

Immigration is a problem, clearly (as anyone living in the southern border states knows full well). And a small piece of the solution is for immigrants to the U.S. to learn our default official language. There are other pieces to the solution, of course, like worker permits, less red tape for naturalization, less violence at the border, etc, etc.

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Author Topic: Immigration (Read 16098 times)

ivan