Topic: They're Heeeere... (Read 9323 times)

Paco DeGaillo · « **on:** October 16, 2002, 02:40:13 AM »

Remember "Poltergeist"

This time you don't need a cute little blonde-haired girl gazing into a static-filled TV screen to know that they are, indeed, here.

Who are "they" you may ask?

Well, first start with this Webster's Dictionary definition:

Main Entry: im·pla·ca·ble
Pronunciation: (")im-'pla-k&-b&l, -'plA-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin implacabilis, from in- placabilis placable
Date: 15th century
: not placable : not capable of being appeased, significantly changed, or mitigated <an implacable enemy>

Get it?

"They" are Islam. The people who wish - no, make that 'have vowed' - to destroy your world and replace it with theirs. They believe that dying to do this will guarantee them a place in Paradise. I would love to help them to get to Paradise - ASAP. Preferably before they breed or have tried to blow you and your family into unidentifiable tiny bits of flesh and bone. It's just the kind o' guy I am.

Meet them. Get to know them. Begin to understand them. The odds are that you don't know fuck-all about them. If you think you do, but haven't actually rubbed up against Islam, personally and in their environ and on an extended basis, then you've been had. You're either just oblivious and ignorant, something they will eventually cure you of, or you're a tool and a fool.

The media and the politicians haven't told you DICK. Know why? Cuz it's not "politically correct" to tell the truth, yet. It's not good politics, yet, to go ahead and call a spade a spade. Someday, probably sooner than the media and pols and apologists and PR firms and perhaps even the True Believers wish, they will have to, in self-defense. We are so over-tuned to political sensitivity that it requires so much undeniable proof that even total fucking idiots can see it - before we will accept it as a society. I sometimes wonder if we deserve to survive, given some of the foolish things we have imposed upon ourselves in the West.

I have no such restraints. I have no such qualms. I don't give a shit who likes it - and who doesn't. Fuck it, fuck them, and fuck anyone who isn't willing to educate themselves - they will deserve it when it comes their way. I see Islam everyday, up close and personal - I know whatof and whereof I speak.

So if you're still reading this:
A good place to start, well-researched and easy reading for anyone with 2 neurons to rub together, is www.pbs.org - one of the best sources regards this topic on the Internet.

Start with
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/network/personal/
and discover who they are, what they are willing to do, how they think, and, lastly, what they believe. If you read the links from this page and still don't get it, well, you're fucked. Eat Drano at the first opportunity. Mohammed Atta's 'Last Will and Testament' is VERY revealing. BTW, in case you don't follow - YOU are the "animal" referred to in "The Instructions for the Last Night." We animals are to be slaughtered, but they promise to do it with some modicum of compassion. Does that work for you? Not me. I don't care to be murdered, whether it's halal or not. Look it up.

If you "get it" and realize you need to know more, then use this URL as a starting point:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/
and do searches on "islam" and "saudi arabia" and "wahibbism" and madrasa" and "terrorism" and "al qaeda" and learn what's what - this will get you pointed in the right direction, gives you the footing needed to reassess what is happening, and has been happening all around you all along. What is changing is (finally) the degree of publicity, the types of targets, and the number of people showing up at the morgue.

You can repeat this on Google, but turn your Bullshit Detector up to HIGH - there is a fucking mountain of it out there and a multitude of apologists who will try to convince you, just before they drain your jugular, that Islam is really about Peace and Love. Uh huh. The true test is to look at how it's practiced, not what nursery rhymes have been written. You're from the TV generations - pull out that highly-developed cynicism that keeps you from ordering from Ronco or calling the 1-900 Chat Lines and apply it liberally.

If you are a fool, then you will think this is Muslims vs. America. If you think that, now, then you definitely need to educate yourself - assuming you're smart enough to open your mind. If you're smart enough to realize it's the Western way of life that is under attack, and America is only the symbol for it, then, congrats!, you're much smarter than the average bear.

I've heard that some of the Australians, hurt and bewildered by the Bali event, are blaming America. They're wrong, but they are in pain and they want an easy explanation. I understand their pain (yes, I do - I've lost several very close friends in combat) and empathize - there is always a need to make sense of tragedy - or to diffuse the pain. It was only a year ago that Americans, too, initially lashed out and blamed everyone within reach. We were wrong then to do so, as well - as became apparent when it was realized that people from more than 80 countries had died.

I've noticed that many Canadians seem to be in the GTG and HN forums. Guess what, folks? Your time will come very very soon. You have the most absurd immigration laws in the Western Hemisphere. Working in Saudi Arabia I know 30 PakIndiLaysians who claim to be Canadian Citizens. Eyah. I know ONE native-borm Canadian. You've opened the flood gates. I guarantee you that there is a fair percentage in that crowd who are implacable Islamic True Believers. Soon, they will stop looking across the border at America - and see that there isn't spit's difference between the 2 sides of that border. So they will decide to do it right there - and shit on YOUR living room rug, instead. Welcome to the War on Terror - coming soon to a shopping mall or disco or grocery store or cinema or outdoor festival near you. You'll look back on the days of the French Canadiens - the Quebecois - with warm nostalgia. They just bitched and moaned and tied up traffic... they didn't try to kill you.

It is, simply put, a war of survival: Islam vs. Freedom - and this program is ALREADY underway.

Get educated, find out, post the best links to info you find in your self-education process for everyone's benefit.

This has been, whether you believe it or not, a Public Service Announcement - and one very much worth heeding. Pass it on...

Anonymous · « **Reply #1 on:** October 16, 2002, 09:09:10 AM »

That's all very insightfull info. The question I'm asking is what can the average Joe do about this?

I understand islam has quite the radical philosphy and outragous beleifs. And they think of ours in the samme way. Simply because they are black and white. I understand that they don't necessarly have a grudge against amerca, but about what america symbolises. So any "Free" country could be a target. They might bomb the CN tower in toronto any day because the structure represents our accomplishments in some regards. However, considering that they have limited resources, you have to agree that they just can't hit everyone. Therefore they have to pick and choose. They choose america because it is the ultimate country of freedom in the world. I'm not really concerned about a bomb landing at my door. I'm in a small city. It would be a waist of limited resources. Until they are stopped, it is most likely that the major citys in U.S. will be targeted. Having said that, I return to my initial question: What the hell can I do except hoping that they realise that what they are doing is wrong. Unfortunatly, they choose death over reason.

Anonymous · « **Reply #2 on:** October 16, 2002, 05:56:06 PM »

Everything from the Mid-East always turns into a "Jihad" or "holy war". Take a look at Saddam; he has stated that if America attacks, there "shall be a holy war against the United States."

What the hell, THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO BOMB IRAQ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. It's just their pathetic attempt to gain support from the sheep that they think follow them where ever they go. They know that if they had all Muslims following them, it would be a very powerful army, but a good portion hasn't totally lost their minds... yet.

At first, in Atta's will, he says that it is wrong to kill animals:
I don't want women to come to my house to apologize for my death. I am not responsible for people who will sacrifice animals in front of my lying body because this is against Islam.

Then he says this:
The people who will attend my funeral should sit at my grave for an hour so that I will enjoy their company and slaughter animals and give the meat to the needy.

Everything that these people say contradicts something they said 5 minutes before, it's absurd.

Paco DeGaillo · « **Reply #3 on:** October 16, 2002, 10:04:26 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge

That's all very insightfull info. The question I'm asking is what can the average Joe do about this?

[/b]

Well, I didn't say there was a lot you could do about it, at this moment, except be informed and not fooled by the apologists. More below...

I understand islam has quite the radical philosphy and outragous beleifs. And they think of ours in the samme way. Simply because they are black and white. I understand that they don't necessarly have a grudge against amerca, but about what america symbolises. So any "Free" country could be a target. They might bomb the CN tower in toronto any day because the structure represents our accomplishments in some regards. However, considering that they have limited resources, you have to agree that they just can't hit everyone. Therefore they have to pick and choose. They choose america because it is the ultimate country of freedom in the world. I'm not really concerned about a bomb landing at my door. I'm in a small city. It would be a waist of limited resources. Until they are stopped, it is most likely that the major citys in U.S. will be targeted. Having said that, I return to my initial question: What the hell can I do except hoping that they realise that what they are doing is wrong. Unfortunatly, they choose death over reason.

Today we're talking about semi-organized groups - al Qaeda, for instance. Tomorrow, we're talking about any Mohammed or Abdul or Sameer - all by himself - trying to score points on his private road to Paradise. He might do that by cutting your throat while you're occupied dispensing a fruit smoothie at the local 7-11... he might, and this is more likely, just place his homemade bomb in the trash container at the front door on his way out after renting "Risky Business" for the 40th time. The situation will degenerate to that, someday soon, as we begin to respond to the organized version.

There is a MUCH longer answer, but that's the economy size.

I recommend that you read about the madrasah, and variations on Muslim "education." This is total indoctrination. Once an adult, it's probably far too late - the damage is done and you won't be able to "reach" the person inside of the religious cocoon.

As for what you can do, well, arming yourself (literally and, especially, informationally) for the next phase, the "personal" phase is how I perceive it, wouldn't be a bad idea. I have a 37" Samurai sword, myself (a real one, not the ornamental junk), though I doubt I will face Islam in my home - it will be a public attack with the victim(s) being in the "To Whom It May Concern..." category.

Who knows, though, you may be young enough to end up being drafted when the call comes from your society to wipe out the nest in which this insanity breeds. That could be in S.A. or Egypt - or it could be the Mosque on the other side of town.

Paco DeGaillo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2002, 10:38:38 PM »

Quote from: Chris

Everything from the Mid-East always turns into a "Jihad" or "holy war". Take a look at Saddam; he has stated that if America attacks, there "shall be a holy war against the United States."

[/b]

The Qu'uran states that Muslims must band together - an attack on one is an attack on all. He is just using it to cover his ass. There is tremendous irony and idiocy to Saddam. He wants, desperately, to be a great Arab leader. He is only vaguely aware, surrounded by all his "yes" men, that he isn't, already, to those outside of Iraq. He apparently wants to be like the Great Saladin (al Salah Din). For a hysterical twist, Saladin was a KURD - you know, the guys he has persecuted for the last 30 years up in the Northern mountains of Iraq.

What the hell, THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO BOMB IRAQ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. It's just their pathetic attempt to gain support from the sheep that they think follow them where ever they go. They know that if they had all Muslims following them, it would be a very powerful army, but a good portion hasn't totally lost their minds... yet.

I'l have to differ with the ending. They never HAD their minds, if raised within an Islamic state, such as Iraq or S.A. or Egypt or any other Arab state or Iran - a Persion state. If raised in any of these, then they are 100% indoctrinated and they never developed the same reasoning faculties you have and take for granted - their potential was subverted at birth in favour of a 100% robotic and automatic set of beliefs & responses. Their seeming peacefulness is merely the fact that they have not felt or heard the "call" yet. If their Imam / Mullah issues it - or the superior Imam they respect does so - then "the cause" will have their loyalty. Men are men, so any given one of them may not be a warrior, but he will still serve their cause as best he can.

At first, in Atta's will, he says that it is wrong to kill animals:
I don't want women to come to my house to apologize for my death. I am not responsible for people who will sacrifice animals in front of my lying body because this is against Islam.

Then he says this:
The people who will attend my funeral should sit at my grave for an hour so that I will enjoy their company and slaughter animals and give the meat to the needy.

This passes unnoticed and unremarked upon by the True Believer. They will see no inaccuracy or mistake or irony or lunacy. They will simply believe and if Atta's method is slightly different, it will be of no matter - for they are Muslim brothers underneath it all.

Everything that these people say contradicts something they said 5 minutes before, it's absurd.

There you go, Chris, being logical and rational. <G> You've gotta disengage your brain before you can "believe" any religion. There are degrees of belief and levels of applicability to your real-world life for any religion or ideology. The Muslims are into brainwashing from birth so they can achieve 100% compliance and loyalty... Hell, even where it's NOT contradictory it's crap! The Christians are a leetle beet more flexible, normally, but full of the same agricultural growth enhancer, nonetheless...

Examples: The Christians expect you to ignore the fact that you KNOW Lot's wife didn't turn into a pillar of salt when she looked back... it's an instructive morality tale, not fact, in spite of the Bible-thumper's fundamentalist stance. The Catholics would, with a straight face, have you believe the Pope is infallible - when your intellect is screaming "Now 'old on a minute there, Gov!"... Hey, there's just so much foolishness you can accept from any one source before you label it crap and move on, right? But that's because you were not utterly and exclusively indoctrinated when you were young and defenseless.

The list is endless - and it's true of them all. They are all filled with trite, often obviously silly, horseshit morality tales meant to dissuade you from unapproved behaviors and persuade you to engage in approved behaviors. It's just typical social / religious / whatever mind-control. Some are just more strident than others - and all of these institutional flavors need everyone they can snooker / hoodwink to keep the money rolling in and their positions of authority over the truly stupid bottom 40%. Okay, no big thing. You've seen it every day - and dismissed them as charlatans, right?

Y'know, The Mary Tyler Moore Show (and a million other SitComs) did that morality tale stuff, too: a neat little bundle of wisdom with a ribbon tied on top dropped into your lap every 30 minutes. I never considered dropping to my knees in her presence or rushing about making plans to kill her enemies, but there you have it - it's just a degree thing - she didn't have a direct pipeline into my brain from birth, her allotment was just 30 minutes per week...
<BEG>

Banshee · « **Reply #5 on:** October 17, 2002, 08:55:52 AM »

Quote from: Paco DeGaillo

They might bomb the CN tower in toronto any day because the structure represents our accomplishments in some regards.

Watch this flash movie: [click]
Watch it the whole way through, and you will see why Osama hates towers.

Reminds me of a Dr. Demento sketch too...

Anonymous · « **Reply #6 on:** October 17, 2002, 11:12:55 AM »

Quote from: Paco DeGaillo

There you go, Chris, being logical and rational. <G> You've gotta disengage your brain before you can "believe" any religion. There are degrees of belief and levels of applicability to your real-world life for any religion or ideology. The Muslims are into brainwashing from birth so they can achieve 100% compliance and loyalty... Hell, even where it's NOT contradictory it's crap! The Christians are a leetle beet more flexible, normally, but full of the same agricultural growth enhancer, nonetheless...

As long as someone's belief in their God(s) doesn't effect me, I'm fine with it. But then you have these people that think that they must kill everyone that is not the same religion. That I do not support.

As long as any group doesn't try to push their beliefs on me, I'm fine with them until they start to do so. Take the PETA for example. It's fine that they don't want to eat meat, or kill animals. It's just when they start stupid protests in the middle of a city that makes me lose all respect for their views.

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #7 on:** October 17, 2002, 01:06:12 PM »

Let's not go smacking Islam with a giant "THIS IS ALL THERE IS TO THIS RELIGION" brush. Islam's got as many different sects/flavours/whateverthefucks as any other major religion, and not all of them want to drill you in the head for owning property & voting.

SeK612 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 17, 2002, 03:20:48 PM »

Religion is the root of most wars - be it Islam or any other. Most religions have dogy sections that have sprung up out of the original so it is unfair to state that one religion is worse than the other - The Christians for example were keen to go around chopping people to bits in olden times under their holy war the "Crusade".

SeK 612

Religion - and GOD - exists in mans mind only!

Paco DeGaillo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2002, 03:09:17 AM »

Quote from: Banshee

Quote from: Paco DeGaillo
They might bomb the CN tower in toronto any day because the structure represents our accomplishments in some regards.

Watch this flash movie: [click]
Watch it the whole way through, and you will see why Osama hates towers.

Reminds me of a Dr. Demento sketch too...

Hey, bubba. How's it going?

I'm on an Internet Cafe connection: 8 PC's with 5 occupied at present, sharing a 56K dialup - no sound.

I'll email the link to myself, instead, and watch it when I go back to the shit - in a few weeks from now.

Thanx for the thought, however!

Paco DeGaillo · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2002, 03:25:26 AM »

Quote from: Chris

Quote from: Paco DeGaillo
There you go, Chris, being logical and rational. <G> You've gotta disengage your brain before you can "believe" any religion. There are degrees of belief and levels of applicability to your real-world life for any religion or ideology. The Muslims are into brainwashing from birth so they can achieve 100% compliance and loyalty... Hell, even where it's NOT contradictory it's crap! The Christians are a leetle beet more flexible, normally, but full of the same agricultural growth enhancer, nonetheless...

As long as someone's belief in their God(s) doesn't effect me, I'm fine with it. But then you have these people that think that they must kill everyone that is not the same religion. That I do not support.

As long as any group doesn't try to push their beliefs on me, I'm fine with them until they start to do so. Take the PETA for example. It's fine that they don't want to eat meat, or kill animals. It's just when they start stupid protests in the middle of a city that makes me lose all respect for their views.

My "rules" for others are similar:
I don't care what they do as long as they don't hurt anyone else, they don't play missionary or impose their beliefs, and it helps them sleep at night.

Rules for self are a different matter! I'll share the first 3, just for fun:

1. Never buy your own bullshit. Always keep it clear in your mind the difference between the PR and the reality - every second and every word and every action. Always dance with who brunga ya.

2. Keep your word or keep your mouth shut. If you don't, then you're only musing aloud, like the fools you want to STFU.

3. Be an asset - or be gone.

#3 is the one I'm currently debating internally.

I am trying to be an asset. By pure happenstance, at this moment I am in a position that affords me some insight and experience of value to Westerners facing something new and, definitely, alien. Since I'm not exactly a shrinking violet and do know what I know I thought I'd give it a go and share it for discussion and debate.

But. Sigh. But the responses indicate that it's only partially seen as such and few are engaging me in the information venue. Lots of feeling - but little info.

As Mark Twain said, "We all do no end of feeling and mistake it for thinking."

It's actually pretty funny shit thus far, IMHO, but it may not strike me that way tomorrow. As soon as it doesn't; as soon as I feel like it's pointless and the responses are wasting my time, then fuck it.

Paco DeGaillo · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2002, 04:07:05 AM »

Quote from: Lacerda

Let's not go smacking Islam with a giant "THIS IS ALL THERE IS TO THIS RELIGION" brush. Islam's got as many different sects/flavours/whateverthefucks as any other major religion, and not all of them want to drill you in the head for owning property & voting.

[/b]

And?

The ones that DO wanna smack you in the head...

Naw, not good enough - let's call a spade a spade:
The ones who want to kill you and destroy your entire way of life as an affront to their beliefs, for no more reason than the fact that you aren't one of them...

These people, to respond to your assertion, are perfectly capable and willing and numerous enough to seriously fuck with your world. Not to mention mine.

So. What to do, what to do... whatever shall we do?

Ignore them? Wait for them to crawl into YOUR little bubble and pop it?

The ones who DON'T want to screw with you are rather SHY, assuming there is any substantive number of them that actually fall into this category, wouldn't you agree?

C'mon. Name ONE unpaid True Believer of standing within Islam who has taken the pulpit / lectern / microphone and risen above the psychobabble / kissass apologists / raving lunacy / cries of the grief-stricken families - the whole spectrum of reaction to this situation to denounce these cretins and murderers.

Just ONE of any standing. Anyone at all, who is clean and outraged and on the air - defending your right to be even SLIGHTLY different from them.

Hell, read their stuff and name one of them who doesn't see you as an animal - less than a man - for being a non-believer. S'okay, I'll wait.

Have you done your homework? Methinks not, given your words.

Ask the WTC families, Bali vacationers & families, Phillipino folks if they agree with you.

You DO realize that it is Islam which has made the issue of Islam vs Everyone else so sharp and narrow, right?

I have never seen anything even remotely so clearly defined as this, so I can certainly forgive a first take wherein it is assumed that it just CAN'T be like that - he's being too MEAN and UNJUST! I AM a kinda mean guy when it comes to innocents becoming victims - just grates, y'know?

Go check it out, bro.

Get back to me when you're armed and fortified with facts and you STILL find yourself wanting to saddle up the razor blade.

I'll bring the alcohol.

You provide the nerve endings.

Anonymous · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2002, 09:26:05 AM »

I hate to tell you, Paco, but a lot of memebers here will not read anything more than a paragraph or two.

Banshee · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2002, 12:12:54 AM »

I read it all... I like reading Paco, even if he does get a bit wordy sometimes.

I won't contribute because, invariably, our opinions differ and any discussion that ensues I will be hopeless outmatched in.

Banshee · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2002, 12:27:45 AM »

Quote from: Chris

Quote from: Paco DeGaillo
There you go, Chris, being logical and rational. <G> You've gotta disengage your brain before you can "believe" any religion. There are degrees of belief and levels of applicability to your real-world life for any religion or ideology. The Muslims are into brainwashing from birth so they can achieve 100% compliance and loyalty... Hell, even where it's NOT contradictory it's crap! The Christians are a leetle beet more flexible, normally, but full of the same agricultural growth enhancer, nonetheless...

As long as someone's belief in their God(s) doesn't effect me, I'm fine with it. But then you have these people that think that they must kill everyone that is not the same religion. That I do not support.

As long as any group doesn't try to push their beliefs on me, I'm fine with them until they start to do so. Take the PETA for example. It's fine that they don't want to eat meat, or kill animals. It's just when they start stupid protests in the middle of a city that makes me lose all respect for their views.

I hear this-- the IMF/WTO protesters that were just here in DC last week really got on my nerves. NO ONE has the right to attempt to halt half the city's weekday commute for their little pet cause. Goddamn, I spend enough time in traffic without some Birkenstock-wearing, Volkswagen-driving, I-Mac-using, Harvard-graduate-on-mom-and-dad's-money, wannabe yuppie lying down in from of my car. Then, they complain about getting arrested, even those who decide to throw rocks through the windows of Citibank to "bring down the corporate establishment." I don't care WHAT their cause is, my respect goes DOWN for abuses of constitutional rights, ESPECIALLY when it directly affects me. Protests are not supposed to threaten/involve other people.
I was so annoyed with these hypocrites that I didn't even bother to find out what their complaints were. Paco, or anyone else, could you explain the big deal about the IMF/WTO?

Paco DeGaillo · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2002, 07:19:37 AM »

Quote from: Banshee

I hear this-- the IMF/WTO protesters that were just here in DC last week really got on my nerves. NO ONE has the right to attempt to halt half the city's weekday commute for their little pet cause. Goddamn, I spend enough time in traffic without some Birkenstock-wearing, Volkswagen-driving, I-Mac-using, Harvard-graduate-on-mom-and-dad's-money, wannabe yuppie lying down in from of my car. Then, they complain about getting arrested, even those who decide to throw rocks through the windows of Citibank to "bring down the corporate establishment." I don't care WHAT their cause is, my respect goes DOWN for abuses of constitutional rights, ESPECIALLY when it directly affects me. Protests are not supposed to threaten/involve other people.
I was so annoyed with these hypocrites that I didn't even bother to find out what their complaints were. Paco, or anyone else, could you explain the big deal about the IMF/WTO?

[/b]

Sheesh, Banshee! You thrashed the fuck out of 'em! Cool!!! I particularly liked how you strung together the "VW-driving, I-Mac using..." - fucking perfect!

You really did hit it on the head, too. How can they expect to garner respect for their cause(s) when they obviously have no respect for the rights of others, such as the residents like you?

They can't in the real world.

But then they weren't really dealing in real-world things - they were posing and posturing for TV! Fuck you - you don't count! TV! TV! TV! Hey, get an upwards angle - makes it look like there are more people that there really are! Just ask a cameraman for CNN - or look for these upward-angle shots in supposed crowd scenes - it's a classic technique and clearly indicates a bias on the part of the news team covering the event.

Regards IMF policy and WTO's effect - Wow! That's at least 2 books, bro - and I won't pretend to know with any real depth.

IMF:
What I do know is that the IMF has been dictating to countries for decades how to qualify for their low interest loans. Some of the things foisted on these countries has been good advice / pre-requirements - like requiring Argentina to get OFF it's dead ass, quit pretending that it isn't an overweight-civil-service disaster that does not deserve to have its debts forgiven - because they haven't bitten the bullet and cleaned up the mess that put them here.

On the other hand, some African nations, who were once self-sufficient in food, if not exploiting exportable resources very efficiently, were given IMF loans contingent upon shifting focus to the exportable resources (metals, minerals, petro, etc.) and the hard currency was supposed to more than balance things.

But in reality, what happened was the money that was spent went into factories and smelters and refineries (with the Govt holding the loan obligation) which were "licensed" to foreign interests to operate - at favorable tax rates... And the hard currency came in for the resources - and went right back out to the foreign operators while the unskilled labor remained unskilled and drew subsistence-level wages instead of farming...

This stumbled along until the markets for these resources hit a surplus bubble, the foreign operators bailed, left the Govt holding the markers and the factories, and the workers, who had left their land, no longer had a farm or money to feed their families.

What happened regards the land is unclear and probably differed in each locale... The Govt had either taken back the untended land, or leased it, or it was simply stolen by Govt officials - the bag is mixed, indeed.

But the bottom fucking line is that some of these countries, particularly in Africa, now have totally dependent populations who are half-starved, looted resources, rusting and worthless facilities, and HUGE debts on which they can't even pay the interest.

BTW, that money lent out by the IMF came from you and me. The US is the major funding country of the IMF - and that's why we have such a huge say in its policies. I think the IMF has a pretty poor batting average and has done more harm than good, all told. David Rockerfeller and the rest of the American Illuminati have been raping, looting, and pillaging since birth - and after they got the golden handshake from CitiBank, et al, they moved into these International positions (IMF, World Bank, etc.) as "respected" business men who would now "Help the World." Uh, huh, you betcha.

This is where Demo and I would sound perfectly identical, I think: I am not opposed to overthrowing the assholes who run these unbelievably huge and powerful and influential institutions. Note that these are not the ones delineated in the Constitution, these are the ones invented much later by the privileged for their own uses. The IMF and World Bank are 2 such parasites.

There's an Elton John / Bernie Taupin tune called "Burn Down the Mission" - and I think it's accurate regards my thoughts on religion, but it ALSO seems to cover situation like these parasitic international cabals quite nicely, too.

WTO
You mentioned the WTO. Funny you should mention the WTO... I know a lot less about it, but some... The Saoodis are trying to get themselves organized to join - but they seem to think they'll still be able to rope-a-dope as per usual in the WTO as they do everywhere else - playing most of the game under the table, instead of on top. Well, lemme see. Hell, China's doing it - and they're brand-new members - so mebbe the Saoodis will be able to, as well...

The WTO is, possibly, a good idea, but I really doubt that it works fairly. I believe in capitalism - and the WTO is more like an abandonment of capitalism and, instead, is a venture in cartelism. In sum and in practice, therefore, I think it's a joke. A bad joke.

I believe it's purpose is to have a level playing field on which nations can trade with each other without fearing they have protect their industries with import tariffs from countries with competing industry because those other countries are unfairly subsidizing their industries. The idea is to eliminate subsidies and, thus, eliminate the import tariffs which were imposed to balance the subsidies.

Ideally, the WTO could eliminate both subsidies and import tariffs - globally.

"Wow!" you say!

Almost as important is the idea that members would give priority to trading with other members. Makes sense, when you think about it, cuz this is the trading floor where you could, supposedly, be sure you're getting a fair deal and not jeopardizing your own industries.

So everyone who's NOT in the WTO WANTS to be - so they can trade under favorable low-tariff conditions and not be cut out of the market.

Those who are NOT in the WTO must deal with any import tariffs imposed upon their goods by the importing country - and there isn't squat they can do about the fact that it makes their goods less attractive, cost-wise, than the same goods from members.

Of course it doesn't actually appear to work as advertised. Surprised? I didn't think so. The explanation for the failure needs a better-informed source than me. I think I got the front-end more or less correct, but I won't pretend I can describe the back-end effectively.

That's the TOTAL SUM of my understanding on those 2 items! Whew!

Someone else, jump in here and handle this! I'm tapped out! And I'd like to hear a conversational answer, too!

Paco DeGaillo · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2002, 07:26:01 AM »

Quote from: Chris

I hate to tell you, Paco, but a lot of memebers here will not read anything more than a paragraph or two.

Hmmm.

I'll respond with a Woody Allen joke:

"I took the Evelyn Wood Speedreading course.
I read "War and Peace" in twenty minutes.
It's about Russia."

Banshee · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2002, 11:49:41 PM »

Thanks Paco! I dunno-- you might not think that was very complete, but I definitely serves my purposes. So, the way I see it now:

1) Both of the organizations are broken and need fixing.

2) There is very little one can do to fix them by protesting on the street.

w00t!

Well, thanks for the props at the first-- lay it on any thicker and I might take it as sarcasm.

Just representin' and keepin' it real, ya know.

Here's the thing though:
WHY would the IMF lend large sums of hard currency to po'-ass African countries that are obviously unstable economically? Where I come from, that's called a "high-risk loan" due to "poor credit history." And it gets insured up the asshole. If some people in this country, the richest in the world, can't even get a fucking home loan what the fuck are we doing giving OUR money to other countries who can barely afford their rice dinners? That makes me mad enough to go throw rocks at Citibank too!

Someone explain to me why the high-minded folks get to decide when we need to be charitable? Make your own country, please...

Whoa, I just realized how inflammatory that just came out. I'll cut it off here and go to bed. More later.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2002, 08:26:22 AM »

Quote from: Banshee

Someone explain to me why the high-minded folks get to decide when we need to be charitable? Make your own country, please...

Whoa, I just realized how inflammatory that just came out. I'll cut it off here and go to bed. More later.

Sounded good to me.

I love it when politicians take my money by force and give it to someone else, and then call that "compassion".

Compassion with other peoples' money.

Paco DeGaillo · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2002, 04:04:14 AM »

Quote from: Banshee

1) Both of the organizations are broken and need fixing.

[/b]

Or disbanding. I keep asking myself why we have to support COMPETING aid efforts, IMF, WB, UN, etc. All of them are incredibly inefficient in terms of the % of the money that ever makes it to the sore spot - the people who need it. And most of them are incredibly ineffective in terms of how they approach the problem: Man dying of thirst, choose action...
1) give drink of water and coupons to come back each day for next drink...
2) give drink of water and drill a fucking water well. Doh!

As you can probably imagine, most Org's opt for #1. Why? Cuz it guarantees them a job in perpetuity. Like the reputation of the lowly lawyers correctly describes it, they do not litigate with an eye to resolution, but with an eye to propagate more litigation. In the stock brokerage world this is illegal - it's called "churning" to keep rolling activity on an account so you can keep drawing fees. Ought to be illegal for ANY middleman org to try to propagate it's existence when it is paid for by charitable contributions.

I have ALWAYS believed it better to give to private groups if you want efficiency - and they have to be watched like a hawk. The United Way is riddled with $1000 suits - so it fails my tests <G> and get zilch from me.

Here's something that might surprise you... check out this charity activity:
Read at least the first 1/3 of this page...
and this
and old Bill Gates is Dead
There is much more here than meets the eye. They give a LOT. They have ZERO overhead. They give where Govt CAN'T (investing in drug companies that make HIV & AIDS meds - and, then, effectively insisting from the boardroom that lower-cost durgs be made available in poor Africa - and fuck me, it WORKS!). They DIG WELLS.

No matter what side of the ABM (Anyone But Microsoft) divide you stand upon, you will, if you are even remotely honest, have to give him his due: He is working very fucking hard to give away his fortune and not waste it on the parasites. Tough act to follow. As I said, I don't give a fuck if you like him or MS or not - makes no difference. HE is making a difference. I was stunned when I started reading - still stunned. I almost like him, now. Still can't stand his hair, and he needs to learn how to take a cream pie with more grace, but I'm getting over it. <BEG>

2) There is very little one can do to fix them by protesting on the street.
This has zero effect when the proponents of the protested Org are 30 or 60 floors above in soundproof cherrywood-paneled conference rooms being feted and stroked... and moved in & out via a fleet of chauffered Mercedes limos - such as what happend at the African Conference about a month ago. They rented 100 Merc's for the event - which was supposed to be focused on aid to the African continent. At the risk of being flamed for an insensitive pun (and NO, I don't fucking care cuz it's Fucking FUNNY - and EVERYONE is due a tweak or three in my book, so fuck off to anyone who doesn't like it! <BEG>), talk about a black hole, sheesh!

BTW, the majority of the limos were for the leaders of the African nations attending - who were demanding that the West just GIVE them $82 Billion USD - no strings attached - for this year. Next year would be more, I'm sure. Check this out to see the amazing number of programs and the aid being given already... puts the lie to the hew and cry that the US is not helping in Africa. Bullshit.

Truth? Africa is not helping Africa. Its corruption is beyond belief. The amount skimmed off the top when we send cash is mind-blowing. The amount skimmed off the top when we send food or goods in breath-taking. The waste is unfuckingbelievable - and those are your $ and my $ and Demo's $... Fuck Africa. Fuck the M.E.. Fuck them all.

Simple Rule 'o Thumb: If they can't demonstrate even a scintilla of honesty and, thus, care for their fellows, how can they expect us (the West and, in particular the US) to reduce care for our own so that we can send them boatloads (literally) of aid knowing a large percentage will be stolen outright by the Official Govt Thugs.

Fuck this shit. If I were King of the World...

Well, thanks for the props at the first-- lay it on any thicker and I might take it as sarcasm. Just representin' and keepin' it real, ya know.

Heh, heh, you're getting paranoid on me: ya nailed it. Zero sarcasm. <EG>

Here's the thing though:
WHY would the IMF lend large sums of hard currency to po'-ass African countries that are obviously unstable economically? Where I come from, that's called a "high-risk loan" due to "poor credit history." And it gets insured up the asshole. If some people in this country, the richest in the world, can't even get a fucking home loan what the fuck are we doing giving OUR money to other countries who can barely afford their rice dinners? That makes me mad enough to go throw rocks at Citibank too!

First I hafta say I'm no expert. But I am semi-aware and I read everything I can get my eyes on and I do give a shit where my money goes... So here's a mess of "factors" to consider... All VERY cynical... In no particular order... the "hardcore" possibilities as I see it...

1) Who wants them to actually pay off loans... you want the resources, right? What "collateral" do you figure is put up against the loans? If not very favorable, mebbe you WANT the current regime to fail, eh? Mebbe "first rights" on any future ventures? Pre-paid bribes, perhaps? Etc. etc ad infinitum ad nauseum...

2) Who sells the arms that arm the factions creating the instability? Who do you want to "win" - you'll get the resources, regardless, by "helping" whomever comes out on top.

3) Who CARES about the guy in Baltimore or Casper who wants a home loan - the rates are quite a bit better elsewhere!
...Note: I will say, in defense of Fannie Mae (et al), that they DO do a remarkably good job of getting money into circulation and making sure the little guys DO get a crack at it - the best that they can do, probably. But there might be much more available (and the lower rates due to a greater availability) if we didn't have to fill so many pipes, including those that lead OOC (Out of Country) to people who will STILL hate us afterwards. It is an amazing amalgam of interests and self-interests constitute the budgeting process.

4) Breaking CitiBank's windows will just cause a rise in their insurance rates - which they will pass back to you in higher fees and higher interest charged. We're all part of the "system" and there's no web strand unattached - it's all interconnected. This is why I HATE insurance and tax cheats - they are cheating me - and you. That is our money they squirrel out of the "system."

Someone explain to me why the high-minded folks get to decide when we need to be charitable? Make your own country, please...

Cuz they're "respected" citizens. First among equals. Old money. Supposedly wedded to the concept of "noblesse oblige" but, in fact, no different than anyone else 99 times out of 100. The facts usually bear this out. Honor, as a way of living, either is fading fast, or has faded already.

I doubt I could prove that today is worse than yesterday, though. Maybe it has always been just like this: 99 of 100 people are utterly without honor - and self-interest is all they can see.

It is oh so hard to fight the tide and we are / were oh so lucky to have had the people we had running the show when America was founded. It is impossible to overstate this. Read "The First Salute" by Barbara Tuchman (won Nobel Prize for "The Guns of August" about WW-I) for a portrait of just how fortunate we were. Read it and contrast with the selection of "leaders" we have today - anywhere in the world - and the comparison will make the point crystal-clear.

Whoa, I just realized how inflammatory that just came out. I'll cut it off here and go to bed. More later.

S'okay - you never have to apologize for the Truth. It just is - and the acceptance or palatability of it to anyone is of no consequence. Consider: He not living within reality is, by definition, living within fantasy. Hence, no apology needed. <G>

Banshee · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2002, 08:38:39 AM »

Quote from: Paco DeGaillo

4) Breaking CitiBank's windows will just cause a rise in their insurance rates - which they will pass back to you in higher fees and higher interest charged. We're all part of the "system" and there's no web strand unattached - it's all interconnected. This is why I HATE insurance and tax cheats - they are cheating me - and you. That is our money they squirrel out of the "system."

I'm not sure I came across right. I was mocking protesters.

But no fear, well, I'm not affiliated with Citibank anyway...

That's about all I have to say on this subject. Very educational/enlightening chat-- look forward to the next one.

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