Topic: What truly drives society? Does life imitate art or does art (Read 26798 times)

dcrog · « **Reply #25 on:** September 19, 2006, 08:27:25 AM »

Quote from: rogue_77 on September 16, 2006, 03:14:29 PM

Does life imitate art or does art imitate life??

Being an H. R. Geiger fan I would hope niether.

derry · « **Reply #26 on:** September 19, 2006, 09:06:13 AM »

Quote

Being an H. R. Geiger fan I would hope niether.

If you like Giger, check out Beksinski. He's dark...some of his images haunt me. Anyway, I think of him when I think of Giger, etc.

http://www.gnosis.art.pl/iluminatornia/sztuka_o_inspiracji/zdzislaw_beksinski/zdzislaw_beksinski_1980.htm

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #27 on:** September 19, 2006, 09:44:38 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on September 19, 2006, 06:45:50 AM

So now we have to define "excessive" so that we can define "greed". Which word will be the next? We can go on and on and on and on like this. Which is why we, as a society, have tools to use such as a dictionary to define things ("greed", "excessive", "justice", "just") with a definate definition (how funny; definiton derives from DEFINATE); so we don't have to debate each word's meaning or find a new meaning every time we have a conversation.

Entire wars have been fought over definitions. In a philosophical debate you must take great pains to be very clear about what you mean when you say things because your argument could be misconstrued and/or fall apart. Just because you have to define words doesn't mean it isn't an important step. There are certain words that DON'T need to be debated, AS I TRIED TO TELL YOU IN THE PRIOR POST. Your above post is called a "Slippery Slope Argument", which is a logically fallacy, in which you go from A to B and then suddenly jump to Z with no real connection. I am trying to get you to define your SUBJECTIVE terms and you are suddenly claiming I want you to redefine the English language. (There is a certain amount of agreement needed between the people involved in a debate. Subjective words are a place where either party may disagree and be forced to come to a consensus on before proceeding.)

Excessive:
going beyond the usual, necessary, or proper limit or degree; characterized by excess.

The above statement is "the" definition of excessive, taken from dictionary.com to prove a point. NECESSARY, PROPER, and USUAL are all things that are SUBJECTIVE and CONTEXTUAL, which means they are VALUE JUDGEMENTS that are UP FOR DEBATE. The very nature of the language is such that there are some things you HAVE to debate about because the definition changes over time. What MORAL means has changed over time though the dictionary definition remains the same. What you can't seem to agree with me on is that the dicitionary may have a broad definition of the word, like the above statement, but sometimes the definition is inadequette and can only be established through debate.

I'm telling you that I agree with you about greed being the desire for excess but that there is much to discuss about what is the "proper limit" and you are trying to tell me that I'm "ignoring" the definition of greed. I'm not, I'm trying to point out the VALUE JUDGEMENTS THAT ARE PART OF THE DEFINITION.

Quote from: 12AX7 on September 19, 2006, 06:45:50 AM

We would have to define "just"; so that we can define "justice"; which, obviously, is going to require an explanation of "Law"; which requires an explanation or "criminality"... for each and every trial.
And what if the accused demands an altered definiton of guilty? Or of "accused"? What if the accused claims what he did is not a crime at all, the way he sees it? Is he still guilty? Can he even ever be found guilty -of anything- under these circumstances?

Crime:
(criminal law) an act punishable by law.

Criminal:
guilty of crime

We as a society generally agree to abide by a common set of laws and to hold each other accountable for not following them. What this means is that it is that the GROUP WITH POWER is forcing its definition of law onto the GROUP WITHOUT POWER. It's up for debate whether that's moral.

The jury in a trial may find a person "not guilty" even if they feel that the person committed the "crime" they were charged with because of some mittigating circumstance. (The law being unfair or irrational, etc...)

Silvy · « **Reply #28 on:** October 22, 2006, 06:01:48 PM »

So that the art is created the artist must have a certain class of inspiration, or at least certain idea in mind of knowing what to express… I think that the life is the reason by which the art exists, and at the same time the art is what completes a society, but the art (at least with the painting) is the perception of the artist on the world, as it perceives to the nature, or their political opinions and feelings are shaped with colors on the linen cloth, so… the society inspires to the artist, but is the artist the one that inspires to the society

just like he said:

Quote from: Crystalmonkey on September 16, 2006, 07:20:52 PM

I believe this is similar to:

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

xolik · « **Reply #29 on:** October 22, 2006, 07:13:29 PM »

I'm amazed at the amount of people I meet that get 'being greedy' and 'being ambitious' confused. Wanting to better yourself and to enjoy the good things that life can give you due to your hard work != being an evil greedy bastard.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #30 on:** October 22, 2006, 07:19:40 PM »

Quote from: xolik on October 22, 2006, 07:13:29 PM

I'm amazed at the amount of people I meet that get 'being greedy' and 'being ambitious' confused. Wanting to better yourself and to enjoy the good things that life can give you due to your hard work != being an evil greedy bastard.

Yeah I've noticed that too.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #31 on:** October 23, 2006, 03:19:49 PM »

Ambition and greed are not mutually exclusive either.

Evonus · « **Reply #32 on:** October 23, 2006, 06:45:02 PM »

Ambition and greed are the same thing, the only difference is that ambition is the nice way to say greed.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #33 on:** October 23, 2006, 06:58:01 PM »

Quote from: Evonus on October 23, 2006, 06:45:02 PM

Ambition and greed are the same thing, the only difference is that ambition is the nice way to say greed.

Definitions of ambition on the Web:

* a cherished desire; "his ambition is to own his own business"
* a strong drive for success
* have as one's ambition

Definitions of greed on the Web:

* excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves
* avarice: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins)
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Greed is a desire to obtain more money or material possessions or bodily satisfaction than one is considered to need. A more religious term for greed is avarice, which is listed as one of the Catholic Seven Deadly Sins.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greed

Sound pretty different to me, and I happen to agree with the above definitions...

Evonus · « **Reply #34 on:** October 23, 2006, 07:00:02 PM »

Quote from: Crystalmonkey on October 23, 2006, 06:58:01 PM

Definitions of ambition on the Web:

* a cherished desire; "his ambition is to own his own business"
* a strong drive for success
* have as one's ambition

Definitions of greed on the Web:

* excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves
* avarice: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins)
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Greed is a desire to obtain more money or material possessions or bodily satisfaction than one is considered to need. A more religious term for greed is avarice, which is listed as one of the Catholic Seven Deadly Sins.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greed

Sound pretty different to me, and I happen to agree with the above definitions...

Remove the word excessive which is subjective and it's practically the same definition.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #35 on:** October 23, 2006, 07:36:27 PM »

I've always associated ambition as more of a word pertaining to self-improvement for some reason.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #36 on:** October 23, 2006, 07:53:38 PM »

Freedom fighter vs terrorist.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #37 on:** October 23, 2006, 08:09:45 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus on October 23, 2006, 07:53:38 PM

Freedom fighter vs terrorist.

I don't know if those terms are really up to date. Firstly, freedom fighter is (as I think Judge pointed out) sounds like it should mean the opposite of what it does. The way I see it, many of the people who were called 'freedom fighters' back in the days when they were on a jihad against Soviets, and now they're terrorists because it's a different jihad. Currently the 'terrorists' are so called because they fight AGAINST freedom, liberty, blah blah blah and want religious extremism instead.

Just my 0.784334 cents American or whatever it is now.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #38 on:** October 23, 2006, 08:47:25 PM »

They're freedom fighters if we agree with them. They're terrorists if we don't.

xolik · « **Reply #39 on:** October 23, 2006, 09:12:58 PM »

So we should abandon all ambitions (since it's the same as greed according to some people) and be content to live in the gutter? Why are successful people the object of hatred simply by virtue of their success? What, that guy is rich? Obvious he's done something illegal and\or exploited the poor to get that way amirite?

I'm sure by now you've figured out that I'm one of those evil, heartless bastards that dares take advantage of the opprotunities my country affords me.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #40 on:** October 23, 2006, 09:27:48 PM »

Quote from: xolik on October 23, 2006, 09:12:58 PM

So we should abandon all ambitions (since it's the same as greed according to some people) and be content to live in the gutter? Why are successful people the object of hatred simply by virtue of their success? What, that guy is rich? Obvious he's done something illegal and\or exploited the poor to get that way amirite?

I'm sure by now you've figured out that I'm one of those evil, heartless bastards that dares take advantage of the opprotunities my country affords me.

There are plenty of people who become rich through nothing more than hard work and intelligence, but society at large has seen too many fuckers get rich from underhanded, if not outwardly illegal means that we've become jaded. I for one try not to judge people by things like material posessions (I'm of the mind that these have meaning only to whoever posesses them).

Evonus · « **Reply #41 on:** October 23, 2006, 09:43:17 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on October 23, 2006, 07:36:27 PM

I've always associated ambition as more of a word pertaining to self-improvement for some reason.

You improve yourself through greed as well.

Quote from: xolik on October 23, 2006, 09:12:58 PM

So we should abandon all ambitions (since it's the same as greed according to some people) and be content to live in the gutter? Why are successful people the object of hatred simply by virtue of their success? What, that guy is rich? Obvious he's done something illegal and\or exploited the poor to get that way amirite?

I'm sure by now you've figured out that I'm one of those evil, heartless bastards that dares take advantage of the opprotunities my country affords me.

You've got me all wrong, I have no problem with being greedy. I am one the greediest money grubbing bastards going, because like I said, greed makes the world go round. I consider greed a good thing, if no one was greedy nothing would ever get done.

TeraHammer · « **Reply #42 on:** October 24, 2006, 01:30:26 PM »

It's survival of the fittest, isn't it? You've got a bigger chance to survive if you have more food/water/money/love/pickles. So greed is good for oneself.

xolik · « **Reply #43 on:** October 24, 2006, 01:55:39 PM »

Quote from: TeraHammer on October 24, 2006, 01:30:26 PM

It's survival of the fittest, isn't it? You've got a bigger chance to survive if you have more food/water/money/love/pickles.

PICKLES! That's what I'm missing. *runs off to the market*

Demosthenes · « **Reply #44 on:** October 27, 2006, 05:36:52 PM »

Quote from: Crystalmonkey on October 23, 2006, 06:58:01 PM

Definitions of greed on the Web:

* excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves

The problem I have is the fact that "needs or deserves" is often defined by others, not individuals who are acquiring or possessing such wealth.

When it comes down to it, nobody can really tell us what we "need" for ourselves, our households, our families, except us. It infuriates me when I see someone (particularly a politician) stand up and want to punish those who "have more than they need". Who is anyone else to tell me what I need or don't need?

Money isn't everything to me. But I know my needs better than some politician.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #45 on:** October 27, 2006, 07:28:26 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on October 27, 2006, 05:36:52 PM

The problem I have is the fact that "needs or deserves" is often defined by others, not individuals who are acquiring or possessing such wealth.

When it comes down to it, nobody can really tell us what we "need" for ourselves, our households, our families, except us. It infuriates me when I see someone (particularly a politician) stand up and want to punish those who "have more than they need". Who is anyone else to tell me what I need or don't need?

Money isn't everything to me. But I know my needs better than some politician.

I know for a fact what some politicians NEED...

patthager · « **Reply #46 on:** February 05, 2007, 09:19:42 PM »

I think that, yes, every action in the history of man had some selfish desire behind it. Greed and ambition aside, all these actions were commited to the end of making life good, if not better. The view of what a 'good life' is varys from person to person. This can be destructive or constructive. If everyone had the same idea of what good was, and the uselessly retarded proletrait and easily directable mob was eliminated, 'he has greed' would be the exact same as 'he takes pride'.

Scheherazade · « **Reply #47 on:** February 18, 2007, 07:57:33 AM »

Quote from: patthager on February 05, 2007, 09:19:42 PM

I think that, yes, every action in the history of man had some selfish desire behind it.

Every action ever taken has some selfish desire behind it, if you want to look at it this way. Greed and self absorbency are characteristics of human nature. It's pointless to try and pick it apart and say that greed is evil, because your reason to say it is backed by greed; whether you're greedy for a better self image or just greedy for others to have a high opinion of you.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #48 on:** February 18, 2007, 09:51:15 PM »

I think there was a book called the Selfish Gene about this.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #49 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:55:09 AM »

But can ALL things really be considered selfish? (I do often wonder about this)

Consider this:

A mother and a child are in a situation (Whatever it may be, use your imaginations) and the mother must make a choice, either she dies or the child dies.

Let's say (and I don't think this is impossible) that the mother chooses to die for the child.

What are some of the possible motivations?:

A) The pain that the child's death would cause on the mother would be so great that the mother wouldn't want to live. (Selfish)
B) The mother would rather see her child live than herself. (Perhaps she feels that she is worthless or has led a "good" life, in any event not so selfish, assuming she doesn't desire death because she is in pain or something...)
C) The mother thinks she'll get into heaven. (Selfish)
D) The mother wants others to think better of her. (Selfish)

While I can certainly see there are a lot of selfish motivations, and it is certainly possible the mother in this "situation" chose one, what about the idea that there are some motivations that are NOT selfish, and this is certainly NOT a comprehensive list of motivations...

This is not to say that being self-interested is bad, for instance killing someone in defense of your life, I am just wondering whether ALL things are motivated by greed. (And what the possible consequences of this are...)

News:

Recent Forum Posts

Shout Box

Author Topic: What truly drives society? Does life imitate art or does art (Read 26798 times)