Topic: Cheney's Smirk (Read 16530 times)

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #50 on:** January 31, 2007, 02:13:16 AM »

Quote from: Rico on January 30, 2007, 10:37:22 PM

In short, disagree if you like. I'm not entirely sure I could care less. At the very least though, try to form an intelligent opinion about something and don't just regurgitate the crap you saw on TV. No matter who you listen to on the radio or watch on TV, they have an agenda and chances are good they're full of it.

Again, sorry to be late on that one, but it irritates the hell out of me seeing folks spewing that propoganda.

I don't give a shit who's authorized it, why they're listening, who does the listening, or what they want to call it. When I call somebody up, or they call me, what is said should remain between myself and the other party.

UPDATE 3 minutes later:

You know what? Fuck it, I don't even care that much. I'm not a US citizen, I've little interest in becoming one, and the only time I call the US it's to screw around with people because I'm bored. Tap who you like, just be sure to post the calls later if they're funny.

Rico · « **Reply #51 on:** January 31, 2007, 06:51:16 AM »

Wait wait wait... If you're not a US Citizen, why in the world would you care if we listened to our own people? That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard! Even IF our President had violated the Constitution not only should you not care, but you don't have any say! That's like me going to the UK and suggesting the Queen should be sacked. Why would they give a flip about what a American has to say about their own politics? On top of that, why would they listen to you anyway? We hardly have the time to keep tabs on every foreigner in the world. If... IF... you somehow were caught in a phone conversation with a known terrorist(or general bad guy), they would investigate your background a little. If they didn't find anything to show you were up to no good, they'd cease to care about you. So basically, if it bothers you so much, just don't talk to terrorists or fugitive war criminals and you'll be okay.

I'm reminded of an old Russian battlecry from the Napoleonic invasion, "What stupidity! What arrogance!"

Dude serriously, you may want to get more involved with your own politics. It might help you understand ours better(in the sense that it'll teach you not to care).

milifist · « **Reply #52 on:** January 31, 2007, 09:19:02 AM »

I think the problem most reasonably intelligent people in the US had with that particular intelligence program was the bypassing of judicial review, rather than the fact they are listening in on conversations. Previous that that particular program, communication intercepts from the US required approval from a federal judge, not much different from CSIS intercept procedure.

Personally, I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, judicial review is an important safeguard against US citizens being unfairly targeted. On the other hand, when it comes to intelligence industry time is of the essence. Even a streamlined judicial review process can low down the process and possibly endanger lives. I am inclined to believe that some sort of balance should be reached, but that the program as it was instituted, didn’t quite reach that balance.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #53 on:** January 31, 2007, 01:01:24 PM »

Quote from: Rico on January 31, 2007, 06:51:16 AM

Wait wait wait... If you're not a US Citizen, why in the world would you care if we listened to our own people? That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard! Even IF our President had violated the Constitution not only should you not care, but you don't have any say! That's like me going to the UK and suggesting the Queen should be sacked. Why would they give a flip about what a American has to say about their own politics? On top of that, why would they listen to you anyway? We hardly have the time to keep tabs on every foreigner in the world. If... IF... you somehow were caught in a phone conversation with a known terrorist(or general bad guy), they would investigate your background a little. If they didn't find anything to show you were up to no good, they'd cease to care about you. So basically, if it bothers you so much, just don't talk to terrorists or fugitive war criminals and you'll be okay.

I'm reminded of an old Russian battlecry from the Napoleonic invasion, "What stupidity! What arrogance!"

Dude serriously, you may want to get more involved with your own politics. It might help you understand ours better(in the sense that it'll teach you not to care).

You know what? Fuck it, I don't even care that much. I'm not a US citizen, I've little interest in becoming one, and the only time I call the US it's to screw around with people because I'm bored. Tap who you like, just be sure to post the calls later if they're funny.

I'm reminded of something I said one time, "Can't you read?"

Evonus · « **Reply #54 on:** January 31, 2007, 01:22:49 PM »

Quote from: catwritr on January 30, 2007, 09:57:31 PM

Your perspective is no different than any of the rest of ours.

Why sure it is. Everyone's perspective is different, otherwise we'd all have the exact same views on everything.

Quote

You think Biz or Demo or Vesp or I surround ourselves with "the same old rhetoric" all the time, or don't try to ferret out the logic (notice I used the word logic instead of the phrase feels that way) behind someone else's argument?

I didn't say you did, stop taking everything I say out of context and making it personal please.

Quote

The difference is you try to pass off your opinion as fact. Opinions skew arguments; facts "win" them.

No I don't. First of all, most debates on this forum largely depend on morality, in which there are no or there are very few facts. Stating the way I see as being the most logical way of doing something does not equate to me stating my opinion as fact. You guys are the one's who very often try to convince me that because I don't share your same views that mine are wrong, so if anyone states something objective(like an opinion) as fact, it's many of you, not me. I've never once said someone is wrong for not agreeing with me, unlike BizB and Demo.

Quote

That's some of the worst logic I've ever seen.

Do you type your own posts with a blindfold on?

Vespertine · « **Reply #55 on:** January 31, 2007, 03:50:29 PM »

You know Evonus, this routine of yours is getting old. You get yourself involved in a debate. After a (varying) period of time, you get frustrated or just plain old pissed off. You then proceed to insult people (e.g. calling then morons, telling them to fuck off, asking them if they create posts with a blindfold on, putting on your victim hat, etc.) Here's a news flash, you have have culpability in the way you're perceived. If I might make a gentle suggestion, either find a new approach to things, or stop being pissed off at the way you're treated around here.

Rico · « **Reply #56 on:** January 31, 2007, 06:57:03 PM »

Quote

I've never once said someone is wrong for not agreeing with me, unlike BizB and Demo.

I think it's interesting that you bring up those two names. I don't think it's any secret that I've disagreed with both at one point or another, and they with me. I've never seen either say some one was wrong just for disagreeing. Both attack the points of the thesis, not the individual. That's how you win arguements. Notice how Agent_Tachyon slipped into blithering idiocy after I showed him the falicy of one of his arguements. Realize, he could have come back and pointed out how the US plays in geopolitics and therefore our actions effect him, thus giving him a valid reason for having a say in our politics. That would be the intelligent thing and what I would expect from any of the folks you've mentioned so far.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #57 on:** January 31, 2007, 09:31:57 PM »

Quote from: Rico on January 31, 2007, 06:57:03 PM

I think it's interesting that you bring up those two names. I don't think it's any secret that I've disagreed with both at one point or another, and they with me. I've never seen either say some one was wrong just for disagreeing. Both attack the points of the thesis, not the individual. That's how you win arguements. Notice how Agent_Tachyon slipped into blithering idiocy after I showed him the falicy of one of his arguements. Realize, he could have come back and pointed out how the US plays in geopolitics and therefore our actions effect him, thus giving him a valid reason for having a say in our politics. That would be the intelligent thing and what I would expect from any of the folks you've mentioned so far.

Fuck you rico. You're wrong.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #58 on:** January 31, 2007, 10:53:59 PM »

Quote from: Rico on January 31, 2007, 06:57:03 PM

Notice how Agent_Tachyon slipped into blithering idiocy after I showed him the falicy of one of his arguements. Realize, he could have come back and pointed out how the US plays in geopolitics and therefore our actions effect him, thus giving him a valid reason for having a say in our politics. That would be the intelligent thing and what I would expect from any of the folks you've mentioned so far.

What I said was not 'blithering idiocy', I decided I didn't give a rat's ass after all. I certainly understand that the US affects me, I just don't care to discuss it. Apathy is certainly an intelligent choice, and I find it ironic that you are describing my posts as being idiotic while chastising someone for doing very similar things.

Rico · « **Reply #59 on:** January 31, 2007, 11:24:30 PM »

Yeah, you're right. Those grapes are truely sour.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #60 on:** January 31, 2007, 11:26:08 PM »

Okay, I'm truely jealous of you.

Rico · « **Reply #61 on:** February 01, 2007, 07:53:56 AM »

[/sigh]

I just realized why I'm the only one replying to you.

TheJudge · « **Reply #62 on:** February 01, 2007, 12:07:33 PM »

Anyone who disagrees with me gets a temp ban!

Agreed?

Evonus · « **Reply #63 on:** February 01, 2007, 05:23:19 PM »

Quote from: Vespertine on January 31, 2007, 03:50:29 PM

You know Evonus, this routine of yours is getting old. You get yourself involved in a debate. After a (varying) period of time, you get frustrated or just plain old pissed off. You then proceed to insult people (e.g. calling then morons, telling them to fuck off, asking them if they create posts with a blindfold on, putting on your victim hat, etc.) Here's a news flash, you have have culpability in the way you're perceived. If I might make a gentle suggestion, either find a new approach to things, or stop being pissed off at the way you're treated around here.

If I wasn't insult from my first post in a lot of topics I would not later respond back with insults. It's a two way street. I'm trying to be civil and present points in a civil manner, but if I have people continually slinging insult I eventually get tired of it, and I will respond accordingly. Both in this topic and the other I can list dozens of examples of when I was insulted countless times before I ever lost my composure, so don't try to pin it all on me.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #64 on:** February 01, 2007, 05:39:59 PM »

EVONUS CAUSED CANCER!

xolik · « **Reply #65 on:** February 01, 2007, 06:23:00 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on February 01, 2007, 05:39:59 PM

EVONUS CAUSED CANCER!

That wasn't every nice of him.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #66 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:13:21 PM »

AND GLOBAL WARMING!

Evonus · « **Reply #67 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:49:34 PM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on February 01, 2007, 08:13:21 PM

AND GLOBAL WARMING!

I wish. I hate the environment.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #68 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:54:37 PM »

AND VIETNAM!

hackess · « **Reply #69 on:** February 02, 2007, 12:24:19 AM »

Quote from: Rico on January 31, 2007, 06:51:16 AM

Wait wait wait... If you're not a US Citizen, why in the world would you care if we listened to our own people? That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard! Even IF our President had violated the Constitution not only should you not care, but you don't have any say! That's like me going to the UK and suggesting the Queen should be sacked. Why would they give a flip about what a American has to say about their own politics? On top of that, why would they listen to you anyway?

In that vein, so why are we in Iraq? Why should we have a say in another country's politics? And yet...

hackess · « **Reply #70 on:** February 02, 2007, 12:30:07 AM »

Quote from: Evonus on January 31, 2007, 01:22:49 PM

I didn't say you did, stop taking everything I say out of context and making it personal please.

Quote

You guys are the one's who very often try to convince me that because I don't share your same views that mine are wrong, so if anyone states something objective(like an opinion) as fact, it's many of you, not me. I've never once said someone is wrong for not agreeing with me, unlike BizB and Demo.

Funny AND hypocritical.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #71 on:** February 02, 2007, 12:31:57 AM »

Quote from: catwritr on February 02, 2007, 12:24:19 AM

In that vein, so why are we in Iraq? Why should we have a say in another country's politics? And yet...

He's being facetious and deliberately setting up that response.

hackess · « **Reply #72 on:** February 02, 2007, 12:33:15 AM »

Quote from: Agent_Tachyon on February 02, 2007, 12:31:57 AM

He's being facetious and deliberately setting up that response.

I realized that all too late and now can't seem to delete my post.

Rico · « **Reply #73 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:53:10 AM »

Quote from: catwritr on February 02, 2007, 12:24:19 AM

In that vein, so why are we in Iraq? Why should we have a say in another country's politics? And yet...

We didn't so much about their politics as we did about how they liked to train terrorists. I know alot of folks talk about how he gassed the Kurds and stole money from the Oil-for-Money program, and such. The idea that this war had some sort of moral reason is all political spin. The Kurds weren't his people, they were just living there and nobody really cares if he starves his whole country except maybe Sally Struthers. Fact is, he shot at our planes in the no-fly zone, violating the rules placed on him after Gulf War I. We ignored that, and I think that's part of why we're in this mess. Two he was training terrorist and he did have stockpiles of chemical weps. He snuck some of those across to Syria, and others he buried. We've found a lot, and God knows how much more is there. That's probably not the best argument for the war either really, though. We knew were most of it was and their terrorist camps were more like church camp with a side of simple bomb-making.

This soon after Vietnam, I knew they wouldn't allow us to fight the war like it needed to be in order to win. I thought air and missile strikes would have been a better way of doing it, but I'm not in charge.

TheJudge · « **Reply #74 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:00:03 AM »

Maybe I'm missinterpretting your post, but the reasons for going to war were:
- terrorist training in Iraq (which BTW was insignificant compared to the number of terrorist training going on in other regions)
- He took a few shots at your planes, violating rules (rules he never even recognized in the first place and catwritr's post pretty much applies your logic and supports your position that really, you had no business in imposing those rules on him in the first place)
- The fact that you've ignored that he shot your planes? I'm confused. Are you saying that this is part of why you went to war? So they shoot your planes, which is a reason to go to war, but you pretend like they didn't shoot your planes, which is also another reason to go to war. I don't get it.
- Stockpiles of Chemical weapons - Who doesn't have them? The US? AH!
- Not the best argument for war - agreed!
- You think you didn't get support because it was too soon after vietnam? No, you didn't get support because as you pointed out yourself, all the points above are probably not good reasons to go to war.

Regardless of my personal comments, if the points you outlined were in fact the reasons why Bush wanted to go to war (and I do point the figer directly at him), why weren't they up front about it instead of making this whole thing about fictional WMD's and how these threatened Americans? Open your eyes. They went to War for other reasons that have little to do with the well being and safety of Americans vs the impeeding threat of Iraq's stockpiles of hand grenades.

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Author Topic: Cheney's Smirk (Read 16530 times)