Topic: Cloning, religion and money - The sad reality of our world (Read 8184 times)

Anonymous · « **on:** January 03, 2003, 08:59:37 AM »

Personally, I just don't see what the point of cloning a human being is. I see no GOOD reasons is what I should say. There are plenty of reasons to clone a person: $$$$, raise an army, keeping Bin Laden and other freaks "alive", etc. But all those reasons can only lead to chaos. So why do people wanna get into cloning in the first place? Is it just the scientist ego at work? Only to prove that it can be done, and the challenge of doing it? What good reason does anyone have to create a human clone? I can only see it used for evil purposes.

I do think cloning can be used to grow replacement organs. That's a good thing. Personally, I could probably use a new set of lungs. And so many people could use a brain as well... But the problem is that if we get into this, it's eventually going to lead to human cloning regardless of what anyone else says. And the more I think about it, the more I realise that human cloning will become a reality sooner than later too. Someone is going to do it regardless of laws, ethics or morales. Don't you find that a little scarry? Because once it has been done, then it will never stop. The world is going mad is you ask me!!!

You've all seen on the news that french bitch that claims she has cloned the 1st human, nicknamed "eve". Well, I'd like to focus this post on that group. Did you all notice that when she was giving her press conference, she was all happy and proud about the whole thing!! People like her are, in my opinion, more dangerous than a terrorsit. And they should be shot down. Now, I don't beleive her claim for one second. Cloning a human being is tricky business, and she's been hit hard with sceptisism from other scientist and former colleges. And they had strong arguments to beat on her.

But, regadless of the validity of her claim, she has put the whole cloning debate on the front line. So it's a good thing in that sense I guess.

Time for The Judge's conspiracy theory!

OK, We know she's part of a sect who beleive that human life was created by aliens using cloning technologies. It is only natural for her to want to clone humans right? At least, that's what she would have us think. She, and others like her, have probably founded that whole sect for monetary reasons. Look at history. That's what sects do. They fraud people for money. So I can only conclude that they probably made the whole thing up. So what is the motive then? Simple: All she and her group want is to clone humans. The payback could be pretty damn big if they start offering their "services" to the highest bidder. And they have in the past: "The UFO sect made headlines in Summer of 1997 because it announced that it would soon clone people. Whoever wants a duplicate of himself can order one for $200,000. " Note the word WHOEVER here. Does that not show that they have no principles what so ever? Does that not prouve they are trying to get filthy rich?

By doing a "sucessfull human clone annoucement" recently, the group puts much attention on their so called religion, unknown to me and the majority of people until a few days ago (although the religion is active in 50 countries). What will happen now is that more freaks will join the raëlian group. Those fools will be financially exploit by the group. The money will be invested in cloning labs, equipement and staff. And then, they will try again and may succeed at that point. The whole fuss right now is simply a marketing strategy. A fund raiser.

I could be wrong about this whole thing, but I don't think I am. Sects exploit people. Right now, a lot of people are in some sort of social and religious crisis. We haven't seen Jesus around for over 2000 years. Has he abandon us? The catholic church is involved in scandals. They are running short on staff, and the payroll is unatractive. People need to be comforted. They need to beleive in something. The religion systems are growing old and do not adapt to the needs of society as it evolves, so they slowly become dinosaurs.

And here we are today, with a group that offers a more scientific explanation of why we are here. And they permit and encourage conducts that most religions discourage: " A friend of mine who spent a week in a Raelian Sensual Meditation camp in the Quebec countryside, came back with a mixed report of the experience, which sounded like a cross between a nudist camp and a New Age retreat. The rules were simple: Everybody was free to say not to a sexual invitation, nobody had the right to feel jealous or possessive if their lover desired another, and the wearing of condoms was mandatory. The place was filled with gay men, girls fresh off the plane from Japan, Swiss women walking around naked..." (from http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/r12.html).

And have you seen their website? Translated in 16 languages!!! You don't see that every day! Someone is in recruit mode alright! But they should really fix up their links... (site at http://www.rael.org/)

So to conclude, I don't beleive they have sucessfully cloned a human. They are working on it and need more cash. And they are trying to get a lot of publicity and exposure because it's all a money game. I also beleive that other groups, or governments, may have sucessfully cloned humans by now, but choose to keep it secret since they probably have unethical intentions.

snyperx · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2003, 10:36:05 AM »

I had heard of this news, of the french bitch, but I haven't heard more then "someone cloned a human." This world is fucked (for lack of a better term, or the lack of effort on my part), my friend and I made a huge threory about that. I'll post that later.

After the 9/11 attacks, I made it a point not to watch the news, as only shit keeps happening, over and over and over and over again. I pretty much gave up on TV, other then weather reports, DB/DBZ, and the occasional MTV2 Rock. In my opinion, being on cnn.com is much better, as you can chose not to read the stuff that you don't want to know about. As far as I'm concerned, there's no need to hear the news, as it's always the same shit every day. "Al Queda threatened an attack," "Bin Laden tape found," "5 people murdered," "Some french bitch cloned a kid," "Isreal invades Palestinian camp." It gets to a point where you can tell whats going to be on the news without needing to see it.

Now on to my theory:

New Jersey made the game of dodge ball illegal on schoolyards. What the fuck? Okay, I guess it can make sense, as it can result in injuries. So kids can no longer play dodge ball. Oh wait, just over a year later Schools Ban Tag, Dodge Ball and Other Games. Okay, I skimmed both of these articles, and they didn't state the reasons that my local newspaper said: Tag lowers kids self esteem and can cause injuries.

So now we put our kids in a huge cocoon, protecting them from childhood games that we've all played. "Oh no kids, you can't play tag because the government is full of giant dickheads." Nope, that won't be said. "Well, we don't want you to be hurt." will be said instead, no?

Back on topic now. If we continue to put our children, the future of this world, in a cocoon protecting them from pain, and protecting their self esteem, then here is a list of things we need to eliminate to keep them (and other people)from getting their self esteem lowered:

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2003, 12:46:48 PM »

Wait - you want to shoot the woman because you DON'T think she was successful in cloning a person?

Uh?

Binoboy · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2003, 01:53:42 PM »

I once heard this somewhere: What if clone Hitler researched and found new laws of physics, and clone Einstein tried to conquer Europe? Why is "cloning" considered the same as "resurrecting"?

Though I see no point in it myself, whatever. More weird people for the planet, cept these ones are man-made, which will make them even MORE "imperfect". As a side note, shouldn't she have named the first cloned woman "Lilith"?

Growing organs would be good. But I can imagine the legal / ethical controversy that would surround harvesting people for parts. Would these "people" have the same rights as others? Can a human being manufactured by man really be considered different than any other from a moral standpoint? Can they ever be considered THE SAME as other humans from a legal standpoint? Why do I get the feeling anti-Choicers would go with the "They're subhuman; kill em and take their organs" standpoint?

And many more. It's too complicated; my head's about to explode....

pbsaurus · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2003, 01:56:49 PM »

Clones (exact genetic replicas) already occur in nature, in the form of monozygotic multiple births. Even though an organism is an exact replica genetically doesn't mean that it is not a separate organism. Environment also plays an important role in ontogenetic development. I personally see nothing wrong with cloning.

Anonymous · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2003, 03:50:33 PM »

Quote from: Lacerda

Wait - you want to shoot the woman because you DON'T think she was successful in cloning a person?

Uh?

Nom she should be shot down because she is playing with too much power AND she is not responsible. As I have demonstrated, she's only in for the money. If cloning becomes reality, it should be monitored and legislated as much as possible. Being able to buy a clone simply because you have the cash to spare should never be allowed. I'm sure it will happen regardless. But if we can minimize it, we're one step ahead.

Quote from: pbsaurus

Clones (exact genetic replicas) already occur in nature, in the form of monozygotic multiple births. Even though an organism is an exact replica genetically doesn't mean that it is not a separate organism. Environment also plays an important role in ontogenetic development. I personally see nothing wrong with cloning.

I was unaware of that. But it seems to me that it's a natural process. This is just a case of mother nature going at work. We're not talking about creating life. Great responsibilities come with giving life. Ask any parent.

snyperx · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2003, 07:52:39 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge

Quote from: pbsaurus
Clones (exact genetic replicas) already occur in nature, in the form of monozygotic multiple births. Even though an organism is an exact replica genetically doesn't mean that it is not a separate organism. Environment also plays an important role in ontogenetic development. I personally see nothing wrong with cloning.

I was unaware of that. But it seems to me that it's a natural process. This is just a case of mother nature going at work. We're not talking about creating life. Great responsibilities come with giving life. Ask any parent.

I agree with Judge, but it also seems to me that for how many millons of years has nature worked perfectly fine without human intervention? There are some things that man has crossed the line with... ok, many things... but still, nature is fine the way it is and has been fine the way it was. Nature has never needed the human parasite to come in for help. I'd continue to rant, but dinner is getting cold.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2003, 10:28:52 PM »

Humans are part of nature, so anything we do would then be natural wouldn't it? We can't remove ourselves from the experiment, we are part of it. We are merely organisms operating within an environment, if we survive and propogate our genes, natural selection still holds.

It all depends on your frame of reference.

snyperx · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2003, 12:54:45 AM »

Good point, very true. But, we manipulate nature, to humans nature is something that is there to be conquered. What other creature has bred a billon specimens with the mental capacity to form societys, governments, laws, to explore space, to destroy the world around them.

South America's rain forests are being destroyed, how does that fit into nature? The way I see it, we are a parasite. We go to one place and use all it's resources and then leave it to perish a death worse then what we wish on our enemies. We have made countless species extinct because we wanted sport. Natures greatest killer is also natures biggest curse. Humans think they are god, they think they can chose what happens when, where, and how. Why would anyone even need to THINK about going to mars and possible colonization in the future? Sure it seems like a good idea, but look under the surface, whats happening to this planet? It's dieing and human's won't accept responsibilty, so we'll go somewhere else and destroy that after this planet dies. I'm not saying that we're going to colonize mars this year, I mean in the future, a hundred years down the road, two hundred, hell, even a thousand. There's a greater picture then what is shown to us, and someone knows it, which is how/why they show us what we see.

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2003, 12:56:23 AM »

If you take the arguments that you've provided against cloning to their logical conclusion, we should abolish medicine and clothing too.

snyperx · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2003, 01:01:56 AM »

Don't forget death, and life at that.

Banshee · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2003, 10:53:05 AM »

Quote from: Lacerda

Wait - you want to shoot the woman because you DON'T think she was successful in cloning a person?

Uh?

You are one cynical bastard, you know that?

Binoboy · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2003, 11:23:58 AM »

This planet is not dying. The planet's been trough billions of years of earthquakes, meteor showers, ice ages, volcanoes, worldwide fires, worldwide floods. The planets' time is not running out; ours is! The planet will heal itself as always.

[/horribly butchered Carlin line]

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2003, 12:55:38 PM »

Quote from: Banshee

Quote from: Lacerda
Wait - you want to shoot the woman because you DON'T think she was successful in cloning a person?

Uh?

You are one cynical bastard, you know that?

So I've been told - but then, I don't really listen to people.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2003, 02:13:51 PM »

Quote from: snyperx

Good point, very true. But, we manipulate nature, to humans nature is something that is there to be conquered. What other creature has bred a billon specimens with the mental capacity to form societys, governments, laws, to explore space, to destroy the world around them.

South America's rain forests are being destroyed, how does that fit into nature? The way I see it, we are a parasite. We go to one place and use all it's resources and then leave it to perish a death worse then what we wish on our enemies. We have made countless species extinct because we wanted sport. Natures greatest killer is also natures biggest curse. Humans think they are god, they think they can chose what happens when, where, and how. Why would anyone even need to THINK about going to mars and possible colonization in the future? Sure it seems like a good idea, but look under the surface, whats happening to this planet? It's dieing and human's won't accept responsibilty, so we'll go somewhere else and destroy that after this planet dies. I'm not saying that we're going to colonize mars this year, I mean in the future, a hundred years down the road, two hundred, hell, even a thousand. There's a greater picture then what is shown to us, and someone knows it, which is how/why they show us what we see.

You're so quick to assert that humans are a parasitic, evil, horrendous blight on this planet. How can you live with yourself? Why don't you just end it all now since you're a parasitic, evil, horrendous blight on this planet? You can't have it both ways. Either you are part of nature and you go with the flow, or you are not part of nature and since nature is all good and you are all evil, you must remove yourself from existence to propage that which is good. I'm thinking of becoming a solipsist so you all will be irrelevant anyway.

Jon · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2003, 02:56:20 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge

You've all seen on the news that french bitch that claims she has cloned the 1st human, nicknamed "eve". Well, I'd like to focus this post on that group. Did you all notice that when she was giving her press conference, she was all happy and proud about the whole thing!! People like her are, in my opinion, more dangerous than a terrorsit.

That french bitch is from the corporation Clonaid that was formed by a religious sect that beleives that all life on earth was formed by aliens. They now say that no proof will be given to prove that the baby is actually a clone. This is now the second time that they have announced that they have produced a clone and then not been able to prove it. I should just take a small white glove and smack everyone over there with it.

snyperx · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2003, 04:16:04 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus

You're so quick to assert that humans are a parasitic, evil, horrendous blight on this planet. How can you live with yourself? Why don't you just end it all now since you're a parasitic, evil, horrendous blight on this planet? You can't have it both ways. Either you are part of nature and you go with the flow, or you are not part of nature and since nature is all good and you are all evil, you must remove yourself from existence to propage that which is good. I'm thinking of becoming a solipsist so you all will be irrelevant anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I've considered it, but then I realize that there's so much shit I can start with people. I live to mess with people, when I can't mess with anyone any more, then maybe it'll be over.

The Earth has been through earthquakes, volcanos, fires, floods, droughts, yes. I don't recall hearing of a nuke being dropped by a pigeon though. I seem to recall someone somewhere saying that if a WW3 broke out and went nuclear, there were enough weapons to destroy the earth... I'm just trying to say that if humanity had some restrictions when evolved, maybe a greater predator or something that could kill them and play god for them (Dr. Moreau type deal maybe?) that the world would be better off, and we wouldn't have billons of people starving the resources.

As far as the flowing with nature, I'll flow, I have for the last 17 years, and 350 days. I'm joining the USAF and my job is going to be to identify what we should bomb. All I think is a restriction here or there would have shaped the path of history. Too late now, eh?

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2003, 04:41:56 PM »

Don't condemn the entire human race because of the actions of a few selfish assholes.

snyperx · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2003, 05:28:53 PM »

True, Lacerda, but those assholes keep multiplying

MISTER MASSACRE · « **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2003, 11:42:35 AM »

Which is all the more reason to castrate the people you meet who seem stupid. Trust me on this - local law enforcement has been notified, and this is now COMPLETELY legal. It's a move for the survival of the species, and all the high-ups can see that.

RANDOM CIVILIAN CASTRATION IS NO LONGER ILLEGAL.

Go out and try it and be pleased with the results!

snyperx · « **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2003, 02:04:51 PM »

When you see on the 6 o'clock news that someone got arrested for this, can I cite your post Lacerda? =P

Anonymous · « **Reply #21 on:** January 06, 2003, 08:34:05 AM »

Well this is all very interesting indeed. But I wouldn't go as far as calling humans parasites. A parasite is a organism that lives off another organism. I think we do a bit more than that

Predator could be a closer term, but we're not just predators either.

To say that humans are part of nature, therefor cloning by humans becomes a natural process is not a very strong argument. By using that logic, I could say that it is natural for me to go over to your house and shoot your mamma right in the head, because I'm a human and I'm part of nature. It's only natural right?

Well, not exactly. That's why we have morales and ethics, from which we build laws. It becomes essential to set some limits for any society to grow. Those "limits" are not picked at random. They include acts that are unhealty for a society to grow. Murder, theft, rape, fraud, etc... If our world was without crime, I think everyone agrees that it would be a much better, healthier world. But, unfortunatly, some humans are greedy. They don't care about the bigger picture, they only care about themselves. So they break laws in attempts to reach personal goals. Now that is Natural. It's the awakened animal instinct whittin all of us. The urge to do primitive acts. Now THAT is natural because that is how we lived at some point. It's geneticly coded behaviors. But has cloning ever been part of our way of life? It's something new. It's an invention. It's a creation. So don't tell me it's natural. I don't buy it.

Is a car natural? Can you go out in the woods and find a nature created Cadillac in some cave? Well no! But if man, who is part of nature, created the car, then is the car not natural? NO!!! It's an invention! It's man created, not nature created. Cloning humans in a lab is no different.

snyperx · « **Reply #22 on:** January 06, 2003, 10:35:22 AM »

Quote from: TheJudge

Is a car natural? Can you go out in the woods and find a nature created Cadillac in some cave? Well no! But if man, who is part of nature, created the car, then is the car not natural? NO!!! It's an invention! It's man created, not nature created. Cloning humans in a lab is no different.

I agree with the car part, granted it would be rather nice to find a Caddy in a cave somewhere, preferably with the keys in it

However, when you produce a car, you don't play god with anything, when you create a clone, you play god, although I suppose that making a child naturally is the same thing. When I think about clones, I think of a science experiment, and a chance to make a perfect race.

I might as well elaborate on this, no?
Fear. What is fear? To me fear is something that is taught to you at a young age, and you adapt it as you grow. Now, when you make a psuedo-human, you can teach him/her fear, but why would you want to? You can make a creature that has no fear of anything and will do what you tell it. Imagine an army of fearless creatures, you control what they learn, you can control their fear.

That was a lot better when I was thinking of it in my head.

Anonymous · « **Reply #23 on:** January 06, 2003, 11:36:40 AM »

Fear is not learned behavior. It is instinct. I have had a bugie for 6 months. Two weeks ago, I brought it over to my mother in law's for X-mas. She has a cat. The budgie froze up completely in panic when it saw the cat. I never taught it to be affraid of cats. It's instinct to fear the unknown.

It's probably possible to create a fearless army using cloning technologies. I'm not sure. Can you block out emotions using DNA manipulation? Probably. Not by suppressing the emotions, but by disconecting the signal they send to your brain. So emotions remain, but you are never aware of them. But that's exactlly my point. You can do some very dangerous and weird shit with cloning. That's why cloning must be monitored closely, or even banned.

Since you brought up fear, I'd like to point out that fear is a good emotion because it warns us of dangers and sets boudaries. A baby could walk off a roof top and plunge to his death simply because he is not affraid. And the reason he is not affraid is because he doesn't have the mental capacity to understand that falling from a rooftop will probably kill him! Unlike that baby, who has no clue and no worry, I am affraid of cloning. I'm not afraid of cloning because I don't know what will happen. I'm afraid because I know what may happen.

Anonymous · « **Reply #24 on:** January 06, 2003, 02:59:20 PM »

There are some traits that are from Nature, and there are some traits that are from Nurture. So I believe when you clone someone, some fears will be absent (if you "deleted" the right chromosomes, that is), while others will still be present due to life experiences.

The army wouldn't be afraid of the dark by instinct, but it will most likely be afraid of other things such as staring down the barrel of a gun.

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Author Topic: Cloning, religion and money - The sad reality of our world (Read 8184 times)

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