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• Total Posts: 129555
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• (January 12, 2023, 01:18:11 AM)

[Min]

Ok, America, get your act together. You're getting way too fat. Is this what we've really become as a nation? I'm all for freedom of choice and being able to eat what you want, but COME ON. At least make some kind of effort to balance your diet out. What the hell is wrong with our country? Gah, it irritates me to no end.

Now imagine having to pay for her health care.     I don't fucking want to!!

[Demosthenes]

Now imagine having to pay for her health care.     I don't fucking want to!!

THAT.

[Min]

You're too young to pay taxes, aren't you?

[Min]

Well, maybe when you pay your own taxes, you'll become outraged that no matter how healthy you eat (even though you don't want to) and how much you exercise and use good judgement (even though it's so much less fun), you'll still have to pay for the cirrhosis of the guy that drinks too much, the lung cancer of the guy who smokes 2 packs a day and the heart diesease of the chick on the scooter who buys all her meals from fast food places.

Or maybe you won't.  I don't know.

[jeee]

Yeh socialism.

But seriously that is why you call it a society and a healthcare system, and yes then you pay for people who don't take care of themselves.

If you choose a system where you don't pay for others and only for yourselve(s) you are fucked when you(who does take care of herself) gets unlucky and gets diagnosed with something serious. Because that is unaffordable.

A healthcare system works because of the fact that everybody pays and still the major part of those people only get a flew shot.

I do share your irritation Detta but unfortunately that is the way it works.

[Chris]

That's what we in the fast food industry refer to as a "fucking fat bastard", or "ffb" for short.

[jeee]

Weird, they pay your salary 

And a good part of it as showed.....

[Wunderkind]

Doesn't bananaskittles live in Canada?

In that case would it matter if she was old enough to pay taxes? I believe they don't pay for healthcare up there. Their healthcare is shitty of course, but they don't pay for it.

[Min]

Unless I'm mistaken, the government runs their healthcare, and so their taxes pay for it.

And you're right, it's shitty.  Canadians cross the border to get cared for here.  And that's the system that they want to bring here.  That's my problem.

Jeee, I don't have a problem with health insurance.  I have a problem with government run health care.  We bitch about the post office and the schools that are run by the government and now we want to put our health in their hands? 

[BizB]

I challenge anyone who is in favour of Obamacare to name one thing that the government does better than the private sector.

[12AX7]

I challenge anyone who is in favour of Obamacare to name one thing that the government does better than the private sector.

 
   Fuck things up for everybody.

   No, I'm not in favour of it; just pointing out the obvious.

[Min]

Healthcare is not healthcare when you have to wait on long lists because the government rations the care.  Or when they deem a procedure unnecessary even though you have good money and want to pay for it.

[12AX7]

Or when they deem a procedure unnecessary

  Especially when "they" aren't physicians or in any way qualified to make such a decision about someone else's health and whether or not a treatment is "available".

[BizB]

Let's be very specific about terms here.

Healthcare = the service provided by physicians
Health Insurance = a means of paying for healthcare


There's currently NOTHING wrong with the healthcare in these United States.  The health insurance system, however, is completely screwed up.  Health insurance should not cover standard office visits.  It should not cover annual exams.  What is should cover is those UNEXPECTED health care costs that one could not reasonably anticipate.

I think the first things that we could do to improve the current costs associated with health care are as follows:
1) Increase the number of physician licenses available
2) Allow LPNs to actually practice
C) I don't always use numbered lists
4) Stop letting the health care providers file the insurance paperwork/claims.  Require the patient to do it.  Then, they'll actually see what the costs are.
5) Stop the automatic payroll withholding for health insurance.  Instead, if an employer wants to provide the additional benefit of a health insurance nature, let them provide a stipend that can only be applied to the cost of health insurance.

There's currently no competition in the healthcare industry.  I go to my doctor because he's a provider that is part of my health insurance company's network.  Not because he's reasonably priced.  Not because he's especially good at what he does - though, I'm satisfied with the care he has provided so far.  I couldn't tell you if a standard office visit costs are high or low compared to other physicians.  I would never dream of calling around to find out where I could get the same level of care at a more reasonable price because no matter where I go, an office visit costs me $20.  That's part of the problem.

[Wunderkind]

Healthcare is healthcare, and I don't know what you mean by shitty but I've never had a problem with it.

When you get older you may have a change of heart about that.

Healthcare is not healthcare when you have to wait on long lists because the government rations the care.  Or when they deem a procedure unnecessary even though you have good money and want to pay for it.

  Especially when "they" aren't physicians or in any way qualified to make such a decision about someone else's health and whether or not a treatment is "available".

What they said.

EDIT: BizB pays $20 for an office visit? Where the hell can I get that insurance?

[12AX7]

My age has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Actually, it does.
1.   If you aren’t working to support yourself while having taxes taken out (I believe you still live at home, right? And just now got a job?) to pay for everyone else’s healthcare; yet at the same time you have your nifty card, then yes. One can say your age has everything to do with the topic at hand since you are using the healthcare system and stating and thinking that it is “free” – a common misconception made by poorer folks and younger people, basically because the aren’t the ones funding it, but most often the ones using it. Thus it seems ‘free” to them.
2.   Simply by virtue of your age, you don’t have the “equity” (for lack of a better term) in the healthcare system – you haven’t paid into it for 30-something years via taxes. That hardly equates you with someone who has been funding your “free” card most of their lives. I’m not saying you don’t have the same rights, etc;  simply that when you state your point of view, you shouldn’t expect those of us “old farts” to believe that you’ve studied the system and know how to play it successfully when you only recently started working (and paying taxes).

this subject, which you clearly have no understanding about, since you don't live in said country.

Again, your age could be called as witness here; as most older folk who have “been around” awhile know that you don’t actually have to live somewhere to know about things there.

Again you are misinformed, however since the only news channel you get is Fox, I'll fill you in on how it works, being a resident of a system where free health care is in place.
 <snip>
   instead of getting it for free where they live in 20 minutes or less.

 It seems you are woefully misinformed. First, as the “old farts” here will attest to; we have many many many many many news channels here. Also, Canada now has Fox, as well, so you can hush using it as some lame insult. Second, you failed in your attempt to fill us in on how it all works. Yep. You left out the ENTIRE PART about how it gets PAID FOR. You know; the crappy part all the “old farts” bitch about all the time. You said “it’s free”. Is that what you truly believe? Its just “free”?

[12AX7]

You are misinformed. I've been paying into it since I can remember, like you, we have taxes "on the dollar" 13 cents is added to what we buy thus increasing the cost (GST and PST) so a 1 dollar item, is really $1.13. That extra 13 cents (or a portion of it) goes into the health care system, its not some bill that comes in the mail once a year, it's an ever growing fund.

  I thought you just started working? Where did you previously get the money to spend? Parents? Then it was not “YOU” paying a damn thing. When you’ve made your decision between the power bill or some Ramen noodles; get back to me.
 Until then, you obviously have no clue what “paying for” something really means.

knowledge and wisdom are two very different things.

And neither come with youth.

[mryellow]

In bananaskittles defense, I do believe Canada's healthcare is very good, in fact it is superior to that of the United States, which is "below the OECD median". On a side note, let's not judge people based on their age? I've seen quite a few "old farts" that are so incredibly misinformed, it is almost a crime. I've also met youngsters far wiser than their age would let you believe. It depends on the person, age is a factor, but not the whole picture.

Please read these URLs:
- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

As for the health insurance, apparently Canada's system is working quite well. Personally I believe the system you guys have in the US is better from an ideology point of view. My country is sort of stuck in the middle: you are required to purchase a health insurance at a Dutch (private) insurance company. The government enforces a basic health package (coverage) and the insurance companies cannot reject anyone who applies for it. They can for anything beyond the basic plan, but currently these companies are not as cut-throat about it as they are in America. This will undoubtedly change though. I am not sure if the government 'owns' hospitals and such, but at the very least they are subsidized (as in: paid by tax payers). No competition. Apparently, according to international standards we are doing quite well. My personal view however, based on personal experience as well, is that the whole system is still terribly bureaucratic and an incredible money wasting machine, clearly as a result from "the way things were done" in the past (think Canada). As a result things are not running very efficiently (long waiting lists for many things, relatively long waiting lists for pretty much everything else), competition between hospitals is non-existent and the costs of health insurance has gone up almost exponentially in a matter of years. That part of capitalism in healthcare has definitely succeeded!

I wholeheartedly agree with BizB, who wrote "Health insurance should not cover standard office visits.  It should not cover annual exams.  What is should cover is those UNEXPECTED health care costs that one could not reasonably anticipate." This is exactly what I deem wrong with our system as well. An insurance should not cover costs that are expected and reasonable enough to afford. I only need insurance for when I get run over by a truck and every bone in my body has been broken (or something to that effect). Or for people who have diabetes and other chronically ill people, which is very expensive. Why call it an insurance otherwise? I have a car insurance, but that doesn't cover yearly check-ups or in fact, gas. And minor damage you really should pay for yourself (or face a fee increase). I pay for it to prevent a catastrophic event from financially ruining me. The same ought to be true for health insurance.

As it stands I pay about 100 euros every month for absolutely nothing (and it rises at an alarming rate each year, 10-15%, with coverage declining and increasing deductables). I would much prefer that everyone paid a certain amount of their yearly medical bills themselves, whatever the reason (say up to a $1000 a year). This would force everyone to be more conscious of what they are doing, enforcing personal responsibility (something especially the Dutch have lost sight of with a maddening array of rules for everything). Many people here go see the doctor for every little thing, and at the same time those doctors play the system by forcing you to come for re-fills of medicine that are not a hazard to your health and do not need those regular check-ups. Should in fact not be regulated at all (and aren't in America). A seriously reduced monthly fee would leave enough financial space to cover those costs (as in: your own responsbility) and contribute to a system that is much more fair from an idealogy point of view. It is seen as unfair in probably most of Europe. Afterall, you didn't ask to be chronically ill and most medical costs cannot be avoided? That is true (did I ask for my car to be totalled though?). But we're not talking about all or nothing here, there is a limit to how much you as the unfortunate one are supposted to shell out. Life simply isn't fair, it's the same with income and that is generally accepted (don't get me started on "pay more taxes as you earn more" though). Time and again it has been proven that without an incentive, the whole system (any system) breaks down into a bureaucratic mess that is more expensive and of lesser quality than it would have been with competition and inequality. We really ough to fix this. A real health insurance system would still pay for the unfortunate soul who needs a liver transplant or something, just as it did before.

I am not against some government interference: people ought to be helped and it is not right that certain procedures that need to be done are not done because those unfortunate souls cannot afford them, or the insurance is only willing to pay for an abyssmal substitute procedure (which is what happens in America). If laws can prevent unscrupulous companies from trying to weasle out of paying for people who have a legitimate claim on (and need for) health insurance, then that is fine by me. But I hate having to pay for all this bureaucratic fluf and I hate that people actively try to 'recoup' some of the money by playing the system. We've all heard the stories about old folks going to see the doctor, mostly to have someone to talk to... I shouldn't have to pay for that.

Unfortunately... no one seems to care much for my opinion and I will be shelling out well over EUR 100 from next year on. Somehow I think the government will manage to introduce a new "environmental" tax on that as well to add to my misery
(Next up: why am I paying for private day care and other children-related costs through taxes? It doesn't apply to me and I didn't get to have a say in who gets to have children and how many... so why should I pay for them through taxes?)

[BizB]

:clapping:

[pbsaurus]

Health insurance in the US is extremely convoluted (yes, I'm that guy who actually reads the statements).  I pay a $10 copay for regular visits and $25 for specialist visits.  Some procedures require a percentage payment which goes toward my deductible.

Here's the bizarre part.

procedure A
-doctor's list price $1000
-insurance pays to doctor $100
-I pay $10 copay

If I didn't have insurance I'd be paying $1000.  But I pay $10.  The doctor makes $110.  In a world without insurance the amount of the procedure would probably vary from $60-$300 depending on how good the doctor was.  What happens is the doctors keep inflating their prices because the insurance companies try to chisel it down.  So in negotiations the doctor next year will say the cost is going up, the service will now be $1200.  The insurance company will say well we can go maybe $105.  Then they'll get the doctor to sign a letter of agreement.  If the doctor doesn't sign the agreement, the insurance takes the doctor off the list and will only cover 70% of the cost for the patient.  The insurance company would then pay $840.  The patient would pay $360 because it's an out of system provider.  Then shudder to think of the poor sap without insurance, he's paying $1200 for the procedure or will ignore it, then end up costing the federal government $1,000,000 when he's amulanced to the emergency room for something that would have been easily fixed for $60-$300.  And the patient, while still alive will then have to file bankruptcy and lose all his assets to pay off the $1,000,000 in medical costs.

[12AX7]

On a side note, let's not judge people based on their age? I've seen quite a few "old farts" that are so incredibly misinformed, it is almost a crime. I've also met youngsters far wiser than their age would let you believe. It depends on the person, age is a factor, but not the whole picture.

 No one judged anyone by age. As for myself; I "judged" by statements made. If I do NOT take age into account; then certain statements make one appear grossly ignorant. If I DO consider age; certain statements are understandable as "life experience" is somewhat limited. This is simply a fact; not an 'insult" or an attack or judgement. I perhaps was somewhat harsh and condescending; I tend to get that way when I feel insulted myself.
  Right, BizB?   
 
  Also, I had no reason to reply anyway until I was quoted and told since I didn't live there; I didn't know anything about the subject; and since we only got FoxNews, I would be filled in on how it works.Then; that particular explanation left out everything about how the whole system gets funded.

[MISTER MASSACRE]

Our healthcare pretty much rules and the fact that I'm essentially paying for other people's poor lifestyle choices means that I have an excellent justification for making fun of fat people.
 

[shparks]

It's not like weight issues are the only self inflicted health problems in the world.  What about people smoking and drinking themselves to death?

[Wunderkind]

We like making fun of them too.

[sociald1077]

Then shudder to think of the poor sap without insurance, he's paying $1200 for the procedure or will ignore it, then end up costing the federal government $1,000,000 when he's amulanced to the emergency room for something that would have been easily fixed for $60-$300.  And the patient, while still alive will then have to file bankruptcy and lose all his assets to pay off the $1,000,000 in medical costs.

This is pretty much what happened to me last summer, only I did have insurance. After the surgery was done and the bills started to come, the insurance company said "HAHAHA!! NO!!" I went back and forth for 6 months with them and the hospital trying to work something out, but it ended up with me sitting on $15,000 in bills. After that I went to the hospital and after some work with them ended up paying about $3500.

Now I'm scared shitless of going to the hospital or to see a doctor. The simple fact is I shouldn't be scared to seek out medical help. There needs to be some kind of afordable coverage that wont pull the rug out from under you and covers you where ever you are.