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[Victorgra]

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• (January 12, 2023, 01:18:11 AM)

[Novice]

Everything he said.

Obviously, you are ignorant of everything that has happened and continues to happen to Native Americans. Honestly, you believe Native Americans are after guilt? At the risk of being a cop out instead of listing how terribly wrong you are, kindly shut it.

[Clear_Runway]

continues to happen? unless you are referring to whites continuously occupying what was once Indian land, I really don't see anything happening in the present day. I certainly don't see any discrimination - but I suppose I could get it straight from the horses mouth. care to throw in an example, Wunderkind?

[Novice]

Just to add my experience on the subject, try visiting a local Native American clinic or a Native American university and you might see what I am referring to.

Of course, America's infrastructure and current economic situation can explain some of what you might see, but it should certainly put reduced prices on medication and tuition in perspective for you.

I am certainly no expert on the subject, but I have been trying to learn more and it's all my dad talks about anymore, really.

[Clear_Runway]

they don't have to go to exclusively Native American clinics/colleges. they have as much right to go to regular medical and academic institutions as anyone else.

[Vespertine]

In terms of current day grievances, here's what I can come up with off the top of my head.

1. Archaeologists digging up and displaying the bones of ancestors in the face of strenuous objection of the indigenous people.

2. Holy sites desecrated so that someone can put up a building/bridge/structure of some sort.

3. A local example: one of the ski resorts up north creates "fake" snow using reclaimed water...spraying it all over Native American holy ground.  It's seen as a massive desecration.

As I said, these are off the top of my head.  I'm quite sure that if you were to get off your lazy ass and do some of your own work, Google could show you a gazillion other examples.  Fuck, you challenge Wunderkind as though you're, well, challenging her.  Knock it off.  Do some research.  Read something.

[Clear_Runway]

1. this happens all the time, to all races. it's called archeology.

2. the Indians have a lot of holy ground. making something holy ground is something that should be kept at a minimum. In any case, the same thing happens every time any sort of religious structure is removed to make room for something else. thing change, live with it. you cant expect something to remain unchanged for eternity because some medicine man declared it to be sacred a thousand years ago.

3....what? shouldn't they be more concerned with the fact that there's, you know, a ski resort there? who cares about the fake snow? you need to explain this one more fully?

I realize I could use Google, but as I said I would like to hear it from the horses mouth. and I'm sorry if that seemed like some sort of challenge.

[Novice]

The challenge seems to be trying to get you to understand that there are things that Native Americans respect.

[Scheherazade]

1. this happens all the time, to all races. it's called archeology.

2. the Indians have a lot of holy ground. making something holy ground is something that should be kept at a minimum. In any case, the same thing happens every time any sort of religious structure is removed to make room for something else. thing change, live with it. you cant expect something to remain unchanged for eternity because some medicine man declared it to be sacred a thousand years ago.

3....what? shouldn't they be more concerned with the fact that there's, you know, a ski resort there? who cares about the fake snow? you need to explain this one more fully?

I realize I could use Google, but as I said I would like to hear it from the horses mouth. and I'm sorry if that seemed like some sort of challenge.

1. You try going to the nearest graveyard to your house and digging up the bones to display on your front yard. Make sure you tell anyone who complains that it's archaeology.

2. There are over 450,000 churches in the United States. Should they be desecrated at will because there are too many of them?

3. It's easy for you to say "who cares" when you haven't got the first clue about these peoples' beliefs or why they consider it a desecration. It's not like they've got a random vendetta against fake snow. Vespertine is right; you need to read more and get some perspective, for dignity's sake. You can't just waive away the cultural beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people because they don't make sense to you.

[Clear_Runway]

the problem with the whole old Indian burial ground thing is that the property was "stolen" centuries earlier, and during the intervening years was most likely sold numerous times. to force respect of such holy land would deprive the current owner of his property, for no fault of his own.

[12AX7]

Fuck, you challenge Wunderkind as though you're, well, challenging her.  Knock it off.  Do some research.  Read something.

 In all fairness; I've discovered that that's just how he comes across. He's a bit ...'unpolished', blunt, and direct. I can believe he

didnt mean anything snide or challenging in a rude way.
 

[Clear_Runway]

1. You try going to the nearest graveyard to your house and digging up the bones to display on your front yard. Make sure you tell anyone who complains that it's archaeology.

2. There are over 450,000 churches in the United States. Should they be desecrated at will because there are too many of them?

3. It's easy for you to say "who cares" when you haven't got the first clue about these peoples' beliefs or why they consider it a desecration. It's not like they've got a random vendetta against fake snow. Vespertine is right; you need to read more and get some perspective, for dignity's sake. You can't just waive away the cultural beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people because they don't make sense to you.

I don't own any graveyards. the people who do this own the land or have permission from the landowners. yes, it was stolen a long time ago, but it would deprive the current owners of their right to property.

if they sell them, sure. Christianity is not linked to particular locations, at least most Christianity. and those churches actually have worshipers who own the land they worship on.

all right, I concede the water thing, but that's only because I just realized what you meant by "reclaimed" water. they could at least use regular water. in any case it's a moot point because (if the article I just found refers to the same incident as what Vespertine was talking about) the judge rules in the Indians favour.

[Clear_Runway]

12 is right, I am rude. and blunt. and tactless. and insensitive. but I'm equally tactless to everyone!

and I'm also going to bed.

[12AX7]

meant by "reclaimed" water

  OH SHIT!!  You mean. . .

  Oh!


...shit! 

[pbsaurus]

I have a Run To The Hills earworm now.  Thanks everyone.  Also RIP Howard Zinn.

[ivan]

You know, you people are all pretty awesome. All of you.   

[Banshee]

There's big money to be made by the exploiting the culture of victimhood.

Truer words have never been spoken, sir.

You know, you people are all pretty awesome. All of you.   

I might be in love with you, ivan.

... I just need a little time to figure it out. I'm really after more space. It's not you, it's me. I'd rather have you as a friend. I hope you can forgive me.



Whoa. I think I just got whiplash.

[Wunderkind]

You're right 12, it's not usually brought up and thrown in peoples faces nearly as often as I would like to see it brought up and thrown in peoples faces. We did try that a while back and it didn't go over so well. The government sent in the FBI and some fighter jets.

There are very few willing to start riots over it anymore because so few us think it will make a difference and it's very hard when you're numbers are so little and nobody seems to care to join you.

I haven't always been a radical over the way some people act. I haven't always cared about how some people take the "well it happened a long time ago and they shouldn't care about it because it happened so long ago" road. I was even one of those people before.

Until I had a chat with an elder of mine.

It didn't happen so long ago. There is still a generation that can remember being taken from their families and put on busses and driven to white schools, having their hair cut and being told that they were white. They still remember being beaten for speaking their own language and being refused a meal if they did not wear white people clothes. And they aren't as old as you might think.

Just last month I told someone that their joke was offensive to me because I was Native American they acted shocked and asked, "You mean you guys aren't all dead yet?" Granted I live near ignorance capital, but I'm weary of it, it's bullshit. And I do throw it in people's faces as often as possible without any recompense expected.

I'm not saying people born on this soil don't belong on this soil. I'm only asking for a little respect. I mean, if your going to live on stolen land, don't you think a little respect is due? (<-- not meant in a hauty way, just asking)

Also Columbus didn't discover shit. I'm tired of that damn story.

[Clear_Runway]

all right, respect I can give. I mean this quite seriously when I say that the Indians were serious badasses.

oh, and what an idiot. seriously.

also, one could give credit to Columbus for making the presence of the new world widely known. the Vikings sort of kept quiet about it, and obviously the Indians couldn't tell anyone. thee may have been a few others, but the point is that most people in the old world didn't know about the new until Columbus saw it. (Actually it was after he died that we found out it was the new world; for the rest of his life, including several return trips, Columbus always believed he had gotten to India)

[Scheherazade]

Honestly, who names their kid "Amerigo?" That'll never catch on.

[Clear_Runway]

Honestly, who names their kid "Amerigo?" That'll never catch on.

Hectar!