Topic: Hello Everyone (Read 11279 times)

fcomstoc · « **on:** January 13, 2011, 10:16:20 PM »

Hello

I am a computer programing major in Phoenix AZ,
I am a linux user and therefore hate microsoft

fcomstoc · « **Reply #1 on:** January 13, 2011, 10:49:38 PM »

Ok So I guess hate is kind of a bad way of putting it, I have a problem with the fact that microsoft has managed to consume 90% of the computer market and has become almost a monopoly; because of this they can charge hundreds of dollars for an OS and people will pay for it even though there are better operating systems on the market.

I choose to use only linux because it is Free, Open Source and Better.

p5ych0t3ch · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2011, 01:26:05 AM »

I agree almost completely, the only thing I vary in is that I believe Microsoft to be q monopoly not just almost, they have after all been charged in court twice on the same matter. Welcome

ivan · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:08:05 AM »

Quote from: fcomstoc on January 13, 2011, 10:49:38 PM

Ok So I guess hate is kind of a bad way of putting it, I have a problem with the fact that microsoft has managed to consume 90% of the computer market and has become almost a monopoly; because of this they can charge hundreds of dollars for an OS and people will pay for it even though there are better operating systems on the market.

I choose to use only linux because it is Free, Open Source and Better.

Quote from: p5ych0t3ch on January 14, 2011, 01:26:05 AM

I agree almost completely, the only thing I vary in is that I believe Microsoft to be q monopoly not just almost, they have after all been charged in court twice on the same matter. Welcome

Good Lord. This is like overhearing a conversation between two drunk people. While you're not. So they sound... incoherent, I guess is what I'm going for here. Yes.

Quote from: fcomstoc on January 13, 2011, 10:49:38 PM

I have a problem with the fact that microsoft has managed to consume 90% of the computer market.

Yes, you are right. Microsoft should have made a conscious decision to make less money -- in fact, it should have deliberately tailored its products so that nobody would buy them. Evil! Evil Microsoft, making something people want to buy. Evil!

TheJudge · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2011, 08:36:35 AM »

Hello and welcome!

Regarding the MS debate. it's not about product quality in the end. It's about branding and product intergration. MS isn't where they are because they have a superior OS, it's because of branding and marketing. They maintain their throne by developping (or buying out) a broad range of other products which are intergrated. It's always the same argument (about the OS), and that argument is pointless.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2011, 10:36:15 AM »

I use Linux because it's about conscious choice, and also out of utility and quality.

Windows doesn't do what I need it to do. It's hopelessly out-of-date with respect to progress and technology, and it's not really good for anything serious. Games maybe, but not really anything else.

As such, I have moved on, and have been using Linux in one flavor or another as my primary desktop OS since 2002-ish. And I won't be going back.

With each release of Windows since then, Microsoft has fallen farther and farther behind where I see technology is going, so I doubt very much that they'll be putting anything out there that impresses me going forward. I think their time has passed, their relevance is fading, and they're on the decline.

They just don't know it yet. Or haven't admitted it.

Chris MacRumohr · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2011, 10:38:34 AM »

I love mac, but I can't say that i hate Microsoft or Linux because of that

ivan · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2011, 12:42:40 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on January 14, 2011, 10:36:15 AM

I think their time has passed, their relevance is fading, and they're on the decline.

Maybe among very tech-savvy personal pc users like you, but you are a tiny market which Microsoft doesn't need to target. I just don't see all the Microsoft shops out there switching to a different platform; I don't see emerging enterprises adopting alternative technologies (at least not yet); and I don't see the mid- to low-level tech consumer setting up Linux boxes at home. Windows works just swell for them, is cheaper than Apple, and runs a gazillion applications. I am an average PC user (meaning there are many, many more consumers like me than you) -- I need to manage email, run a browser, manage some spreadsheets, Quicken, a decent word processor, connect to a hot spot -- why should I jump through hoops or pay through the nose when I can buy a cheap laptop, turn it on and use it?

And on the enterprise level, .Net and MSSQL are powerful. What we accomplish in my place of work could not be done on another platform with our small in-house IT staff and our relatively modest budget. And we're not forgiving or tolerant, either -- we get cranky when it takes more than 2 seconds to return a 5-million-row dataset.

I'm not a complete stranger to Linux -- as part of my job I had to support a legacy product that only ran on Linux, so I had to maintain a couple of Linux boxes. Those damn things were nothing but a pain in the ass. So, yeah, maybe my perspective is skewed. But I just don't see MS fading away any time soon.

fcomstoc · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2011, 01:01:14 PM »

All i have to say is that some of those low to mid tech consumers that are currently using windows would be better off running Linux. I have run windows on one of my computers for some things and that computer is the only one i have had crash in the last year. Windows uses and unbelievable amount of resources, Has no back end for high tech users and is prone to crashing and security (i know that is because of the market share)
I have just found that when one gives up windows they are making a great decision- no matter what level of computer experience they have

fcomstoc · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2011, 01:03:43 PM »

plus if a new user has an issue with anything or needs help in any way there is a huge linux user community that i have found to be extremely helpful

Demosthenes · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2011, 01:12:27 PM »

Ivan: Yeah, I think you're a bit skewed on the subject.

I have two 100% non-technical aunts who are both using Linux. On computers they bought from OEMs (one being System76, the other being Zareason). One is running Ubuntu, the other is running Linux Mint.

Neither requires any real hand holding or tech support from me on any kind of regular basis. FAR less than when they were both on Windows anyway.

Linux is more ready for the average user's desktop than any version of Windows I've seen.

fcomstoc · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2011, 01:25:34 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on January 14, 2011, 01:12:27 PM

Neither requires any real hand holding or tech support from me on any kind of regular basis. FAR less than when they were both on Windows anyway.

Linux is more ready for the average user's desktop than any version of Windows I've seen.

That is very true after the initial setup (install, drivers if needed) there is very little that needs to be done to keep the computer running smoothly. even the updates are easy and don't require a restart (except for kernel updates) (good for servers), running linux is easier than running windows for low tech the GUI is easier than windows to navigate and if they learn a couple of commands the CLI is easy to use as well

Overall linux is more user friendly and is generally better than windows

ivan · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:14:16 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on January 14, 2011, 01:12:27 PM

Ivan: Yeah, I think you're a bit skewed on the subject.

I have two 100% non-technical aunts who are both using Linux. On computers they bought from OEMs (one being System76, the other being Zareason). One is running Ubuntu, the other is running Linux Mint.

Neither requires any real hand holding or tech support from me on any kind of regular basis. FAR less than when they were both on Windows anyway.

Linux is more ready for the average user's desktop than any version of Windows I've seen.

Did your aunts arrive at the decision to take the Linux path by themselves, without your advice? If they did, they are uncommon. To bring my extended family into it, most of them don't even know Linux exists. They choose between PC and Mac, and PC, to them, is Windows. The people I work with -- regular office people, musicians, graphic artists, IT people -- have strong PC or Mac allegiances, but Linux isn't even on anyone's radar.

Worldwide market share of Linux OS appears to be less than 5%, while Windows is at 85%. To what extent do you think those numbers will change in the next 10 years? What would it take to change those numbers even by 10%?

A huge PC consumer demographic are aging boomers. For Windows to lose market share, you'd have to see some massive defections among people who are pretty much set in their ways. The generations behind them will also tend to use the OS they grew up with and the OS they use at work. I don't see MS losing significant market share in that demographic, your aunts notwithstanding.

The biggest threat to Windows OS are today's school kids. They are much more likely to see Linux as an alternative to Windows. But they won't be the dominant demographic for another 20-30 years.

Demosthenes, in January 2021, if I'm still alive and functioning, I will resurrect this thread (probably using my WinLink™ neurolink earbud PC running Firefox), and we'll see how the decade developed. If Linux is within 20% of Windows' market share, I will send you my cherished mint unopened Windows98. It will make a swell coaster.

Quote from: fcomstoc on January 14, 2011, 01:25:34 PM

Overall linux is more user friendly and is generally better than windows

I'm curious to know -- how is Linux more user-friendly?

Even if it has a substantial advantage over Windows, people need a strong push to research alternatives and learn how to switch their OS without losing all their spreadsheets and Quicken backups. When my last laptop crapped out, it was so much easier and quicker for me to get the latest greatest laptop at Costco, transfer my backups and keep rolling.

Overall, people seem pretty happy with Windows. I mean, they keep buying it. Maybe Linux might husband resources better, but if Windows isn't pegging at 100%, who cares? Maybe it's more intuitive and user-friendly and easy to learn, but if you already use Windows, why bother learning something new?

You can shout "WAKE UP SHEEPLE" off the rooftops all you want, but for the mainstream user, the Linux advantage is not worth the effort.

Like I said, my generation is pretty set in its ways. Windows works well enough. We have the exceptionally bright iconoclasts like Demosthenes among us, but most of us will just go with the flow.

As for your generation, I'm sure Linux enjoys greater popularity, but is it anywhere close to Windows? I bet you know more Mac users than Linux users.

That raises another question: When Linux advocates rail against Windows, why don't they also rail against Mac?

p5ych0t3ch · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:37:44 PM »

Lol I tend to rail as you say against Microsoft more than MAC because Microsoft is the source of the obsolete and malicious media. That media that states that Linux is only geared toward the techie elite which is no longer the case with the current distros that are available.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:47:39 PM »

Quote from: ivan on January 14, 2011, 03:14:16 PM

Did your aunts arrive at the decision to take the Linux path by themselves, without your advice? If they did, they are uncommon. To bring my extended family into it, most of them don't even know Linux exists. They choose between PC and Mac, and PC, to them, is Windows. The people I work with -- regular office people, musicians, graphic artists, IT people -- have strong PC or Mac allegiances, but Linux isn't even on anyone's radar.

Nope, I pointed them at it. Namely because -- even for friends and relatives -- I charge for supporting Windows computers. I charge nothing for supporting Linux.

And no, it's not on anyone's radar, which is the problem.

Quote

Worldwide market share of Linux OS appears to be less than 5%, while Windows is at 85%. To what extent do you think those numbers will change in the next 10 years? What would it take to change those numbers even by 10%?

I think those numbers will increase in the next 10 years, but it's hard to say. What would it take to increase Linux's market share on the desktop?

One main thing: awareness. Whether that's achieved by one distro that distinguishes itself enough (Ubuntu comes to mind) that it becomes a household word, or if more mainstream OEMs provide it as an option (and a real option, not a "oh yeah, and we have Ubuntu... somewhere... on our site... um. If you know exactly where to look for it. Maybe. Sometimes." approach like fucking Dell has taken).

The other thing that I think would make a difference is in the enterprise. The way things are right now, you could put an Ubuntu or Mint machine in front of most people and with almost no instruction, could do what they need to do. It's no longer a matter of utility; it's a matter of availability of a fair number of 3rd party apps that are very industry specific and bound to specific platforms.

With more and more web-based apps and with concepts like the Cloud dragging people kicking and screaming into the future, the platform becomes a lot less important. What you're running on your local computer doesn't matter much, if your company's ERP solution is browser or portal based.

So you save money on licensing and put everyone locally on something that is free, secure, easier to standardize, easier to patch/manage, and simple for the average user to use.

Will this happen? Hell if I know. But I think those are the main areas that would push a shift away from Windows and towards desktop Linux.

But the important thing here is simply this: there is no technology-related reason. The technology is there.

Quote

A huge PC consumer demographic are aging boomers. For Windows to lose market share, you'd have to see some massive defections among people who are pretty much set in their ways. The generations behind them will also tend to use the OS they grew up with and the OS they use at work. I don't see MS losing significant market share in that demographic, your aunts notwithstanding.

Probably not. But then, those aging boomers don't buy computers as often as those younger than them, demographically speaking. They're a less important market.

Quote

The biggest threat to Windows OS are today's school kids. They are much more likely to see Linux as an alternative to Windows. But they won't be the dominant demographic for another 20-30 years.

No, not yet, but I agree. Put Ubuntu in front of a youngster and they'll use it. But we need to get it into schools, and that's an uphill battle too, mostly because Microsoft has spent an entire generation indoctrinating school IT staff into thinking that Windows is the only way to go, and that that's what these kids will need to know when they get into the workplace, so that's what you should teach them.

You and I both know that's complete bullshit -- it's about making those kids think that Windows IS the computer, and the ONLY way. But that's how MS operates. They can't compete on merit, and only rarely have they ever been able to. So that's how they compete.

Quote

Demosthenes, in January 2021, if I'm still alive and functioning, I will resurrect this thread (probably using my WinLink\u2122 neurolink earbud PC running Firefox), and we'll see how the decade developed. If Linux is within 20% of Windows' market share, I will send you my cherished mint unopened Windows98. It will make a swell coaster.

I look forward to that, but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote

Even if it has a substantial advantage over Windows, people need a strong push to research alternatives and learn how to switch their OS without losing all their spreadsheets and Quicken backups. When my last laptop crapped out, it was so much easier and quicker for me to get the latest greatest laptop at Costco, transfer my backups and keep rolling.

I agree, and that's part of what makes it an uphill battle. People are weird animals. They will continue to deal with UNBEARABLY bad circumstances, if nothing else just to avoid making even the slightest change in how they do things.

Quote

Overall, people seem pretty happy with Windows. I mean, they keep buying it.

Well, they don't know any better.

Quote

Maybe Linux might husband resources better, but if Windows isn't pegging at 100%, who cares? Maybe it's more intuitive and user-friendly and easy to learn, but if you already use Windows, why bother learning something new?

Agreed. And that's the biggest barrier there is.

Quote

You can shout "WAKE UP SHEEPLE" off the rooftops all you want, but for the mainstream user, the Linux advantage is not worth the effort.

Like I said, my generation is pretty set in its ways. Windows works well enough. We have the exceptionally bright iconoclasts like Demosthenes among us, but most of us will just go with the flow.

As for your generation, I'm sure Linux enjoys greater popularity, but is it anywhere close to Windows? I bet you know more Mac users than Linux users.

That raises another question: When Linux advocates rail against Windows, why don't they also rail against Mac?

Considering that Apple is even more of a closed silo and anticompetitive and belligerently hostile to the very concept of open source, I don't know. I'm not much of a fan of Apple, frankly. And I find Mac OS X to be so counterintuitive as to be unusable. I'm a flailing idiot when it comes to that interface, and it doesn't matter how much time I spend on it.

Thing is though, Linux on the desktop has a couple things working for it. As a so-called Linux evangelist, I'm quite aware of them.

1) Microsoft is falling behind.
Like any corporation that gets as big as MS, they have grown complacent and horrendously dysfunctional about a lot of things. As a result, you have things like Vista and Windows 7.

"BUT WINDOWS 7 IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD!" you say!

Sure. But the only people saying that are the ones who are comparing it to XP. Or (worse yet) Vista.

Yes. Compare Win7 to a ten year old operating system and it seems amazing.

But compare it to Linux Mint and it's laughably and hopelessly out of date. Heck, even cosmetically. When I use Win7, I feel like I'm staggering around in a sluggish, overly made up whore of an OS from 2005. I have to go back to about that far to find anything in the mainstream Linux universe that compares.

Long boot times, sluggish response (even on substantial hardware!), and oh joy... the same goddamned security problems. Better than XP? Well, I'm not totally sure of that... I'm having much better luck with XP on my work laptop than I had with 4 months of Windows 7 on the same hardware. Got tired of all the crashes and sluggish performance.

But sure, I'll grant you that most people think it's better than XP. But it's painful to use by comparison to any mainstream Linux desktop distro out there.

Heck, even to non-technicals. My Aunt Jean has been using Ubuntu for about a year and a half. When she has to use Windows 7 where she works she can't stand it. As she put it in a rather eloquent email to me several months ago, "It's like running in sand. You work hard but it feels like you're not getting anywhere. And it's always popping junk up in front of my face. It doesn't get out of the way so I can just do my work."

2) Linux is still young, and is improving very rapidly
Yeah, I kinda got off on a tangent there and almost forgot there was a "2)" coming. Deal.

Linux was developed mostly as a multiuser server kernel. Yes, people started messing around on desktops with it in the late 90s, but no real serious efforts were made in that direction until the 2000s.

A mountain of progress was made in that arena from 2000 to 2005. 10x that progress was made from 2005 to 2007. And now... well, now in the view of most people who have been comparing the two, it's surpassed Windows in terms of stability and ease of use. Heck, now even with respect to hardware support and app availability the tables have turned.

You're more likely to see everything work out of the box when you install Linux Mint 10 on most machines than you are out of Windows 7. There are outliers, but those are getting fewer and farther between.

And that's only going to keep improving.

"Oh," you say, "but the average user isn't going to download and install Linux, so that doesn't matter".

True. But the average user isn't going to do their own install of Windows either. Good thing, too. My Aunt Jean did an Ubuntu setup on her own a year or so ago (on her old laptop). She didn't have any problems.

Pepe help her if she'd tried that with a Windows installation. *shudder*

Based on criteria like that, Windows isn't ready for the average user either. But it's the one thrust in everyone's faces for the past decade and a half, so that's the "norm".

Thing is, Ivan, this isn't a conventional race. The ecosystem in which operating systems grow, develop, live, and die, is changing rapidly. Far more rapidly than a behemoth like Microsoft can keep up with.

Linux so far in the "race" has been the tortoise... slowly and steadily creeping toward the finish line.

But with MS slowing down and falling behind, and with the rate of really exciting, next-gen developements in the Linux world speeding up, Linux is becoming both the tortoise AND the hare.

And that makes me excited.

Min · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:48:09 PM »

If Linux were as easy to use as Microsoft, I'd be using it. But I was just kidding when I said that I only act dumb...I actually am kind of dumb, so I need a dumbed down product.

And...if I had any more time to fiddle with computers than I do now...the internet would be flooded with hilarious MS Paint drawings. And if I still had extra time, I might try to install Linux.

Welcome new person.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:50:39 PM »

I think Chrome OS has a better shot than Linux. Currently I use Win XP at work and Mac OS X.something or other at home. The wife likes Mac. If work used Linux, I'd use Linux and MAC OS at home. If most people are like me (read lazy) then they'd do the same. Linux would need to either make deeper penetration into the workplace (heh heh, I said deeper penetration) or human nature would need to change to the point where most of us weren't lazy.

Plus MS has the marketing power and the war chest to continue to have the OEMs sell the majority of boxes/laptops with Win on them.

Then there are the pad/tablet/mo-devices which are android or apple i-system. Since Mac Os is already integrated with i-whatever and I believe Android and Chrome will be integrated, I can see these two platforms being dominant in 2021. Although I'm a luddite who still uses a laptop and desktop. Everyone I know out here in Silicon Valley has at least one i-phone/android phone and most have an i-pad/android based tablet. I know several who have multiple phones and tablets, so they can get the best of both worlds. Do they have Linux phones and tablets? If they do, I'm pretty sure the general lazy populace (who still gets most of their information from mass marketing vehicles-television, billboards, radio, print, and internet ads) hasn't heard of this option--pretty much the same as the computer OS option.

Right, wrong, or otherwise, Linux will be analogous to the elusive 3rd party in US politics. The mindmakers present everything as a one dimensional duality--Win vs Mac, Dem vs Rep. Linux is kinda like the Greens or Libertarians, the Rodney Dangerfield of OSes.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:55:26 PM »

Quote from: Detta on January 14, 2011, 03:48:09 PM

If Linux were as easy to use as Microsoft, I'd be using it. But I was just kidding when I said that I only act dumb...I actually am kind of dumb, so I need a dumbed down product.

That's the thing though. Have you tried? Using Linux, that is.

Point and click. Linux Mint.

People have this impression of Linux-based OSes being all command line and code. While some distros are like that, it's not exactly what I would recommend. Heck, it's not even what I use any more.

Mint is actually easier to use than Windows... pretty much any version.

And you don't need to install it to try it. Download it, burn the ISO to a CD and boot from it. Voila, a fully functional Linux desktop without so much as moving a hair on Windows' ugly head.

Min · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:58:42 PM »

Can I put it on my little portable hard drive and run it from there?

Demosthenes · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2011, 04:00:24 PM »

Quote from: Detta on January 14, 2011, 03:58:42 PM

Can I put it on my little portable hard drive and run it from there?

Dual-boot? Sure. Though that can get a little dicey to set up without help. No CD burner?

Min · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2011, 04:02:16 PM »

I don't want nothing dicey!

I'll try the CD burner thing. AFTER I GET ON THOSE MS PAINT DRAWINGS.

Min · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2011, 04:02:23 PM »

OH CRAP i FORGOT TO PUT THE ICE CREAM AWAY. See, I don't have time for computers.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #22 on:** January 14, 2011, 04:04:31 PM »

To use a car analogy (sorry... I know people hate car analogies)...

What people think Linux is like

What Linux is ACTUALLY like

Of course, you have to pick the right car. Linux can look like the top one, if you pick a distro like Gentoo or Slackware. But most Linuxes made for the desktop (Ubuntu, Mint, et al) are like the second one. You just sit down, adjust the seat, and drive.

ivan · « **Reply #23 on:** January 14, 2011, 04:46:49 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on January 14, 2011, 03:55:26 PM

And you don't need to install it to try it. Download it, burn the ISO to a CD and boot from it. Voila, a fully functional Linux desktop without so much as moving a hair on Windows' ugly head.

No fucking way.

I might just try that.

The last Linux install I tried was some "hat" or other 10 years ago, and I couldn't get through the end without getting fatal exceptions. I'm sure it was my fault, or a faulty box, but I just threw my hands up.

But this sounds promising.

Clear_Runway · « **Reply #24 on:** January 14, 2011, 04:58:17 PM »

wow. I leave for a job interview and the forum explodes. and the newbie who started this thread is nowhere in sight!

very intairvestink. also, just who in the great googly moogly is Pepe?

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