Topic: This 13 year old has the biggest balls of them all! (Read 26013 times)

Gillivray · « **Reply #25 on:** September 13, 2004, 05:18:48 PM »

Quote from: Law

Quote from: Gillivray
I understand "rights" and the Constitution. I just think some people twist and distort it to serve their own purpose.

*dies of irony poisoning*

Y34h, R1Gh7, wH473v3r

reimero · « **Reply #26 on:** September 13, 2004, 05:20:25 PM »

The great thing about this country is that it's one of the only countries in the world that guarantees your right to hate it and will proudly defend that right.

Gillivray · « **Reply #27 on:** September 13, 2004, 06:58:24 PM »

Quote from: reimero

The great thing about this country is that it's one of the only countries in the world that guarantees your right to hate it and will proudly defend that right.

Sad, but true. I think if people would spend some time in some of the hell holes I have been in around the world, they would sleep with the American flag. LOL

It's funny too, when I came back from the Middle East, I was on a military jet with no windows and the first that almost blinded me when I stepped off that jet in Atlanta was all the colors. 18 months of looking at tan, everything is tan over there. And yet I get off the jet and just an explosion of colors everywhere you looked. It was wild. But I am just babbling right now..........Almost quitting time

Law · « **Reply #28 on:** September 13, 2004, 09:22:44 PM »

Quote from: Gillivray

Quote from: reimero
The great thing about this country is that it's one of the only countries in the world that guarantees your right to hate it and will proudly defend that right.

Sad, but true. I think if people would spend some time in some of the hell holes I have been in around the world, they would sleep with the American flag.

I have. Both in uniform and out. I still support people's right to express themselves, even if it offends me. Allowing people the right to free expression doesn't mean you agree with it. This is the factor that most people seem to forget.

Quote

Y34h, R1Gh7, wH473v3r

But that was a super come-back too. Aces.

hackess · « **Reply #29 on:** September 13, 2004, 09:34:47 PM »

I believe Voltaire is credited with the following:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Gillivray · « **Reply #30 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:07:41 PM »

I agree Catwritr, I might not agree with someone's belief's, but they do have the right to believe anyway they want. I mean, if everybody believed the way I do, this world would be too perfect. LOL j/k of course.

Gillivray · « **Reply #31 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:09:01 PM »

Quote

Y34h, R1Gh7, wH473v3r

But that was a super come-back too. Aces.[/quote]

Thanks, it's been ages since I've spoken in l33t. LOL

Rico · « **Reply #32 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:49:14 PM »

Demo, maybe you misunderstood me. I was saying that it's her right not say the Pledge. I've sworn to defend her right to do so. That doesn't mean that I can't find it offensive.

You people act like holding something sacred is a bad thing! Shame on me for feeling pride when I see the Colors go by at the head of a parade. Shame on me for respecting all the men in my family that have served and wanting show them that respect. How horrible that I believe in God and have the arrogance to admit it.

I'm hearing people bitch about how this girl is such a hero for showing disrespect to her countrymen. Make no mistake I do wholely believe that it was disrespect. What's her beliefs that keep her from admitting her allegience to this country? What religion does she prescribe to that says she's not allowed to do so? When a Jehova's Witness refuses to say that Pledge, I respect him for that. Some people will fault him, but it's his faith. Ask him why he refuses to say it and he'll even tell you. Ask this girl, and all you'll hear is some one trying to get attention.

I refuse to praise some kid for willfully refusing to honor the people that gave her the freedom to make that choice. God forbid we step on some one's right to be disrespectful. I like how I supported her right to do what she did, but only mentioned how I disagreed with it and was attacked for it. Does it bother you so very much that I believe what she did was disrespectful? Strange how the only two people who have stood up and said they find it offensive happen to be two that decided a long time ago that their country and honor was worth dying for, and even volonteered for duty that put in a position to demonstrate that belief.

Forgive my spelling, I get angry when something I hold dear is insulted. I think you'd find the same would happen if anyone were to disrespect several of you here.

Anonymous · « **Reply #33 on:** September 14, 2004, 07:36:32 AM »

Quote from: Rico

I'm hearing people bitch about how this girl is such a hero for showing disrespect to her countrymen.

I stopped reading from this point on. She didn't show disrespect. That's the whole point. You're the one who's showing disrespect to your county by making that statement.

hackess · « **Reply #34 on:** September 14, 2004, 07:46:31 AM »

Quote from: Rico

Demo, maybe you misunderstood me. I was saying that it's her right not say the Pledge. I've sworn to defend her right to do so. That doesn't mean that I can't find it offensive.

Fine, but don't give her shit for doing exactly what those rights you protected allow her to do.

Quote

I'm hearing people bitch about how this girl is such a hero for showing disrespect to her countrymen. Make no mistake I do wholely believe that it was disrespect. What's her beliefs that keep her from admitting her allegience to this country? What religion does she prescribe to that says she's not allowed to do so? When a Jehova's Witness refuses to say that Pledge, I respect him for that. Some people will fault him, but it's his faith. Ask him why he refuses to say it and he'll even tell you. Ask this girl, and all you'll hear is some one trying to get attention.

Who says one's objections to the Pledge have to be religious in nature? And why does her refusal to say the Pledge mean she's disloyal to the country?

Quote

I refuse to praise some kid for willfully refusing to honor the people that gave her the freedom to make that choice. God forbid we step on some one's right to be disrespectful. I like how I supported her right to do what she did, but only mentioned how I disagreed with it and was attacked for it. Does it bother you so very much that I believe what she did was disrespectful?

It's not because you disagreed with her. You could've just said you disagreed and left it at that. It's because you've now questioned her loyalty as an American citizen.

Quote

Strange how the only two people who have stood up and said they find it offensive happen to be two that decided a long time ago that their country and honor was worth dying for, and even volonteered for duty that put in a position to demonstrate that belief.

Yes, but on the other side of the coin are Demo and Law, who have both been in uniform, yet support this girl's right to refuse to say the Pledge regardless of whether they find it offensive. In fact, does personal offense matter in this particular instance? You've said yourself you understand her right to refuse, and isn't that all that matters? Otherwise we're getting into a question of personal morals, and that's a different argument entirely.

And for the last time, stop, stop, STOP using your service to the country to argue "holier than thou."

Anonymous · « **Reply #35 on:** September 14, 2004, 08:09:42 AM »

Quote from: catwritr

And for the last time, stop, stop, STOP using your service to the country to argue "holier than thou."

Indeed. This isn't about you or your service.

Law · « **Reply #36 on:** September 14, 2004, 08:18:08 AM »

Quote from: catwritr

Yes, but on the other side of the coin are Demo and Law, who have both been in uniform, yet support this girl's right to refuse to say the Pledge regardless of whether they find it offensive.

And avalanche!

Quote

And for the last time, stop, stop, STOP using your service to the country to argue "holier than thou."

Yes, please. Either you're there to serve selflessly to defend the nation or you're there to be seen as a hero who deserves constant praise. Not everything you disagree with personally is an insult to American servicemen. It's offensive to you, a serviceman, but that's it. The two don't combine into a greater super-ego. You serve to defend her right to say or not say the pledge, you do not serve to make her say the pledge. That was a different army that fought to force it's citizens into strict patriotic compliance.

You disagree with her? Fine. But do not come in here harping on how she is a disloyal person who offends all military personnel. Just say you disagree and move on.

Quote from: rico

How horrible that I believe in God and have the arrogance to admit it.

The pledge of allegiance to a nation is not religious. Just because God is in the pledge does not make it a religious prayer. Refusing to say the pledge alone does not make the person anti-religious. How horrible that you believe in God and have the arrogance to think that that makes you better than someone else.

hackess · « **Reply #37 on:** September 14, 2004, 08:20:52 AM »

Quote from: Law

Quote from: catwritr
Yes, but on the other side of the coin are Demo and Law, who have both been in uniform, yet support this girl's right to refuse to say the Pledge regardless of whether they find it offensive.

And avalanche!

Yes, and avalanche. My apologies for omitting you.

avalanche · « **Reply #38 on:** September 14, 2004, 08:23:44 AM »

Thanks for the props, law.

Rico · « **Reply #39 on:** September 14, 2004, 08:57:44 AM »

I'm not knocking any of the other services, they have their place. The point isn't that I've served, but that my family has, and that my friends have, and do. Several of both groups have died in combat to protect this country and the freedoms we're granted here. I was pointing out that those of us in the Army joined this branch because we have no problems dying for our country. Not that the others do, but how many Airmen or Sailors have died in conflicts in the past 30 years as compared to soldiers and Marines? When I bring up that card, it's because I've asked the people that I serve with how they feel about it and recieved the same response.

Now, what's wrong with me feeling that what this girl has done is disrespectful? I believe it was just based off of what you all have told me about it. Not that she did it, but that she didn't want to say why she refused to say it. That tells me that she probably didn't have a reason. THAT I find offensive. I've heard the same people getting on to me bitch left and right aobut Bill Gates. You find what he has done to be just as wrong as me. Guess what, though. It's his right as an American. Just because you have a right to do something, doesn't mean you should. With freedom comes responsibility. What I see here, are people fighting for some one's right to do something, without burdening them with their responsibilities.

When I was in Korea, I went to a soccer game and they played their national anthem before the game. I stood at attention because, even in civilians, it was the right thing to do. There are ways to demonstrate respect without giving in to your beliefs. Getting off your ass while others salute our flag is one of them. There was nothing to say that she had to speak the pledge. There was no one forcing her to cover her heart. Tell me why it was so much effort for her to stand. This girl was blatenly disrepectful, and this whole crap about defending her is bull. If we don't hold ourselves accountable for our deeds, then some one else should, and if no one does, we get the same kind of thing going on today in our schools.

hackess · « **Reply #40 on:** September 14, 2004, 09:13:35 AM »

Quote from: Rico

I'm not knocking any of the other services, they have their place. The point isn't that I've served, but that my family has, and that my friends have, and do. Several of both groups have died in combat to protect this country and the freedoms we're granted here. I was pointing out that those of us in the Army joined this branch because we have no problems dying for our country. Not that the others do, but how many Airmen or Sailors have died in conflicts in the past 30 years as compared to soldiers and Marines? When I bring up that card, it's because I've asked the people that I serve with how they feel about it and recieved the same response.

Completely irrelevant to this discussion and therefore will be ignored.

Quote

Now, what's wrong with me feeling that what this girl has done is disrespectful?

There's not a damn thing wrong with you feeling it was disrespectful. But say it and move on. Some of the rest of us may find it disrespectful as well, but we're not bashing her because she's offended us. We're saluting her right to do so. Not many kids have even begun to question such ritualistic things as saying the Pledge or attending worship services.

Quote

<snip> Just because you have a right to do something, doesn't mean you should. With freedom comes responsibility. What I see here, are people fighting for some one's right to do something, without burdening them with their responsibilities.

Excuse me? Perhaps you want to revise that statement after you consider the group with which you're debating.

Anonymous · « **Reply #41 on:** September 14, 2004, 09:20:50 AM »

I can understand where you're comming from, but in a sense, isn't what your describing social conformity to some degree? Because the majority feel that standing up is showing respect doesn't take away your right to sit down. You may not like that fact that I'll sit down, but I don't owe you anything and you certainly have no right to tell me to stand if I don't feel like it. If you and the rest of the majority who feel I should stand up pressure me to do so, aren't you in essentially stripping me from my freedom?

The issue is not about respect, it's about a fondamental right which people like yourself are suppose to defend. There's something very wrong when you can't even recognise what you are willing to die for.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #42 on:** September 14, 2004, 09:45:00 AM »

That girl's reasons are her business.

She doesn't need to justify herself to exercise her rights, no more than do I have to justify myself to exercise mine, or you yours, or anyone theirs.

Rights do not come in shades of grey. The aren't "well that's okay but THAT isn't unless there's a good reason!".

That defies what a "right" IS if that's how you're going to treat them.

Her right to remain seated and silent is hers to exercise, period. She doesn't have to justify it to her classmates, her teacher, and least of all you or I.

Maybe she objects to "under God" being a part of it.

Maybe she doesn't like the fact that by saying the "Pledge Of Allegiance" she's swearing loyalty to a country whose government is acting in a way in which she strongly disagrees.

Or maybe she just doesn't want to say it or stand because that's what everybody else was doing.

My point is, it doesn't matter. It's nobody's business but hers, and bullying her into feigning some sort of lip-service respect does a far greater disservice for those that gave their lives to protect our freedoms than her silently bowing out ever would.

Rico · « **Reply #43 on:** September 14, 2004, 09:47:40 AM »

Cat, you attacked my use of my service. I responded. I'd hardly call it irrelevant.

You're absolutely right, Judge. She has that right, and she won't be arrested for it. To me it's ALL about respect. She's basically demonstrated that she has none. It would have been very simple for her to even just stand, but she chose not to. If you go to an.... I'm not sure what they call an Islamic service, but say you went to one. Wouldn't you keep your voice down, and not make a disturbance? I would. I don't believe as they do, but I have enough respect for them, and the great people that have lived and died in their religion to observe some form of just decorum. It's not comformity in the least.

I won't applaud her demonstration of her rights anymore than I would a loud Christian at an Islamic service. She was well within her rights, but she was still wrong. ...but... what can you do about it? Kids disrespect teachers and their elders all the time these days. I've got a little brother that's the same way. His only care is himself, and no one else. Never worries if his sister is doing okay or hurt by the comment he made, never worries that his mother may not have enough money to buy him that tank of gas. This lack of concern for your fellow people is an epidemic sweeping this nation, and what this girl just did is indicative of that. Maybe I'm wrong, I just think that patting her on the head and saying, "Way to exercise your liberties," is the best way to handle it.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #44 on:** September 14, 2004, 09:53:05 AM »

Quote from: Rico

I won't applaud her demonstration of her rights anymore than I would a loud Christian at an Islamic service. She was well within her rights, but she was still wrong.

Rights cannot, by definition be "wrong".

And what she did was not disruptive in any way, shape, or form, until her teacher attracted everyone's attention to it and made a huge issue out of it.

Quote

This lack of concern for your fellow people is an epidemic sweeping this nation, and what this girl just did is indicative of that.

This lack of concern for what is happening to peoples' views of individual rights is the real epidemic sweeping this nation.

The fact that we are even discussing this "incident" is indicative of that.

hackess · « **Reply #45 on:** September 14, 2004, 09:54:34 AM »

Your comparison of the armed services is irrelevant.

Furthermore, your having served does not give you the right to say what people can or cannot do with their rights. So you feel offended or disrespected. That's your problem. Not hers, not mine, and not anyone else's here. That is what I meant when I said stop using your service as "holier than thou." You don't get to make people's choices for them.

Anonymous · « **Reply #46 on:** September 14, 2004, 10:02:21 AM »

What's the point of having a right if you can't exercice it freely without repercussions? That's not what a right is.

What you describe is consideration of others. Respect is highly subjective and in some cases, one action could be viewed favorably by one group, and offensive by another. Respect is simply a guideline to help a person determine the appropriate code of conduct in a specific environment or situation. But it still doesn't necessarly mean that it has to dictate your conduct.

avalanche · « **Reply #47 on:** September 14, 2004, 10:59:59 AM »

Quote from: TheJudge

What's the point of having a right if you can't exercice it freely without repercussions? That's not what a right is.

What you describe is consideration of others. Respect is highly subjective and in some cases, one action could be viewed favorably by one group, and offensive by another. Respect is simply a guideline to help a person determine the appropriate code of conduct in a specific environment or situation. But it still doesn't necessarly mean that it has to dictate your conduct.

Fuck you, Judge (he said respectfully.)

reimero · « **Reply #48 on:** September 14, 2004, 11:13:59 AM »

When in a situation with which you disagree or choose not to participate, "respect" generally indicates sitting or standing, hands or arms folded, and keeping an overall low profile. Making a scene is disrespectful.

For instance, if you are in a situation in which a prayer is being offered and you do not wish to participate in that prayer, the respectful thing to do is bow your head and wait till the prayer is over with. The disrespectful thing to do is to stand up, walk around or yell "screw all y'all!" (I work for a Catholic university, so prayers and invocations are quite common at university events. The university does not assume that all employees are Catholic, but does make an effort to reinforce its Catholic identity.)

Law · « **Reply #49 on:** September 14, 2004, 11:45:09 AM »

Quote from: Rico

I'm not knocking any of the other services, they have their place. The point isn't that I've served, but that my family has, and that my friends have, and do. Several of both groups have died in combat to protect this country and the freedoms we're granted here. I was pointing out that those of us in the Army joined this branch because we have no problems dying for our country. Not that the others do, but how many Airmen or Sailors have died in conflicts in the past 30 years as compared to soldiers and Marines? When I bring up that card, it's because I've asked the people that I serve with how they feel about it and recieved the same response.

I know at least 4 members of the Army and 6 Marines that would beat the ever-loving shit out of you for that statement alone. Not to mention the widows and bereaved member of Naval and Air Force families. I'm not sure how you turned this into a discussion of why serving in the Army is better, but you're an idiot for it. You are no better than the third mate on a Coast Guard cutter or the cook on a Naval research vessel in Antarctica and your service is in no way better than theirs nor does it mean anything more.

I thought you were leaning a bit towards the lunatic fringe with your self-made hero worship, but now I realize you are a card carrying member.

News:

Recent Forum Posts

Shout Box

Author Topic: This 13 year old has the biggest balls of them all! (Read 26013 times)

Anonymous

Anonymous

Anonymous

Anonymous