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• (January 12, 2023, 01:18:11 AM)

[Crystalmonkey]

In another of my classes (I take a lot of philosophy classes) we're going over Pornography. The class is on Speech Acts, for those who don't know I'll explain what that is in a moment, and we're reading MacKinnon's book "Only Words" which is very much against pornography (as defined by MacKinnon - "graphic sexually explicit materials that subordinate women through pictures or words.")

She's in favour for banning it, and given that definition I can see why, but I suppose the question then is what counts as porn.

To throw a wrench into the works, it's interesting that if the situation were, let's say, a black man and a white man, I'm not sure it would be viewed in the same way.

And what about fetish videos, I mean the one's where men and women are willing participants, not forced.

[xolik]

And here I was, expecting pics... *sigh*

I'm fuzzy on how to classify books, but for pictures, if it's in color, it's pronography. If it's in black and white, it's art.

[pbsaurus]

If it's on canvass it's art too, and then it can have color.

[hackess]

So the fact that I did a photography session where you can see nippleage is pr0n because it's in color, but the black and white session is art? Feh.

Pr0n is pr0n. Art is art. You know it when you see it and every "you" will see it differently.

[Crystalmonkey]

The basic idea is that it "subordinate's women".

How do you define that though?

[hackess]

Bullshit.

Pr0n doesn't subordinate women. People subordinate each other and themselves.

What's that Eleanor Roosevelt quote? "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

[pbsaurus]

Is subordinating women necessarily wrong?  Morality is relative.  And what about Dom woman/sub man porn?

Humans are organisms with a sexual drive, all of the models/actresses/actors I've known do this willingly so I don't see any exploitation involved.  Consenting adults should be able to do whatever they desire whether there is a camera around or not.  Selling people into white slavery is repugnant to me.  Pornography is not.

[pbsaurus]

Bullshit.

Pr0n doesn't subordinate women. People subordinate each other and themselves.

What's that Eleanor Roosevelt quote? "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

Excellent.  I didn't know that was Eleanor.  Cool lady.

[hackess]

Heh. Exactly, pb. I know two of the professional dominatrices in Madison. I've watched them work. At least half their clientele is male. One of them has a live-in slave.

D/s is entirely about subordination, but not without trust that harm (undesired) will not befall the sub.

If you want to argue that pr0n degrades women, you have to say it degrades men as well.

[Crystalmonkey]

Heh. Exactly, pb. I know two of the professional dominatrices in Madison. I've watched them work. At least half their clientele is male. One of them has a live-in slave.

D/s is entirely about subordination, but not without trust that harm (undesired) will not befall the sub.

If you want to argue that pr0n degrades women, you have to say it degrades men as well.

Yep, that has been brought up too, basically saying that it lowers men down to a level where they are only focused on sex or something like that, let me get my notes.

[pbsaurus]

We are sexual beings!  Their assumption that sex is inherently bad clouds their thinking.

[Crystalmonkey]

Here are some of the public notes that someone took for the class:

Speech Acts:

What kind of speech act did Romano perform in reviewing her book?  Concensus is it is hate-speech by an ad hominem against MacKinnon and NOT her book.

Pornography--early arguments was that porn caused rape and violence against women.  That causal link was very hard to prove. "Mental Intermediation" (Judge Easterbrook) is a very important concept--porn alone does not cause rape, but porn in addition to other factors does.
The culture of patriarchy makes most men fit MacKinnon's claim they are "erection machines."

Causal is two--rape is wrong and porn causes rape.  Show the harm, but the harm is a second step.  

Constitutive--MacKinnon is saying that porn is a direct harm on women, even IF it does not cause rape (although we know it does contribute).   Porn constitutes suboordinating and silencing women.

"Totalizing Discourse"--means it is impossible to get outside the discourse of women being objectified.  I.E.  When Anita Hill testified, her testimony became pornography more than legal evidence against Thomas.

Porn says women exist for mens' pleasure and erections exist for mens' pleasure.  

MacKinnon's overall goals, moving from the causal to the constitutive is a huge leap...she does not have a philosophical background so there is a mixture of causal and constitutive premises.  

MacKinnon's view:  if porn was completely artificial, and there was no rape in society, would it still be harmful to women?

Go to site, look at Frontline's special of American Porn.

One way porn constitutes a harm because it is intimidating.  
Tirrell plays the part of a feminist devil...asks Mackinnon why women don't have the power to consent?  If we hyper-protect women, we damage them, but if we don't protect women, we damage them.

What constitutes autonomy?

Read "Only Words" at least 3 times.
Look for where her view connects to speech acts(pp 29-33)
If you protect women like children, then that is an extension of patriarchy.  

To be coninued...  

[hackess]

I'm going to need to get home before I can break out my own notes on this.

[Crystalmonkey]

That's cool, I would love coming up with an opposite view. =)

[Crystalmonkey]

I said this as a reflex action when reading the book:

While I was reading "Only Words", I was having problems with a lot of the things said, not because I didn't understand them, though that is the case for some things, but because I think they're wrong.

Take for instance when she says on page 17 that "In this visual materials, they experience this being done by watching it being done. What is real here is not that the materials are pictures, but that they are a part of a sex act. The women are in two dimensions, but the men have sex with them in their own three-dimensional bodies, not in their minds alone."

I took that to mean she's saying that by men fantasizing, and at the same time masturbating to those fantasies, that they are committing the act involved in the fantasy. In other words, the person involved is making the situation real.

Or when, at the bottom of page 15, she says, "Similarly...it is not the ideas in pornography that assault women: men do, men who are made, changed, and impelled by it."

Throughout this, I'm thinking a couple of things, one of which is that 'this sounds like the argument that violent games causes violent kids.'

It seems like she is confusing reality and fantasy, arguing that fantasy influences reality. In some ways, I can see what she's saying and slightly agree, but not to the extent that she wants. After all, it is the mind that influences how we percieve reality, so what we think can influence what we percieve, but I can't agree with her views on the influence on porn, if for nothing else but lack of evidence.

In a lot of ways, her arguments for banning pornography are similar if not the same to the arguments for banning obscenity.

[hackess]

How do you ban obscenity?

How do you DEFINE obscenity?

Prurient interests, my ass.

[GenStyx]

would tubgirl be considered obscene? why?

[Chris]

I think "obscene" is based solely on one's opinion on the topic up for debate. For instance, someone might find pigs getting their heads cut off in a slow manner to be obscene, but some guy might actually find it to be very civilized., and might also call it a form of entertainment.

[Crystalmonkey]

Does anyone mind if I print this and use some of the questions here to provoke conversation about it?

[hackess]

No objections.

Hope we help.

[Crystalmonkey]

Well I'm just not good at articulating what I mean sometimes, and it seems you guys brought up some very interesting questions =)

[Chris]

We did something like this in my English class this evening. The professor told us to get into small groups and just talk about the topics that we came up with. Believe it or not, we actually came up with a lot of good ideas and subtopics to write about and research. Most of the time we did this in other classes, NOTHING ever got done. And I mean NOTHING.

I find night classes are a lot better because a lot of your typical 18 - 21-year-old pot heads/weed addicts are well... weeded out since they are all out partying by that time.

[GenStyx]

We did something like this in my English class this evening. The professor told us to get into small groups and just talk about the topics that we came up with. Believe it or not, we actually came up with a lot of good ideas and subtopics to write about and research. Most of the time we did this in other classes, NOTHING ever got done. And I mean NOTHING.

I find night classes are a lot better because a lot of your typical 18 - 21-year-old pot heads/weed addicts are well... weeded out since they are all out partying by that time.

I object to that statement. AS a weed "addict" I actively participate in discussions, even in night classes.




...Well, I suppose most of us (in generalization terms only) are not as such.


Also, I have this "friend," let's say his name is Hilary for saftey's sake. Hilary likes porn and to use it for sexual satisfaction. Often it is either in the night, however he has been doing it in the morning recently. Sometimes Hilary also likes to surf with a curious and open mind and wanders into risque categories.
How much pr0n would be more than healthy? To be considered and addict per say?

In regards to pornography I find my views to be quite liberal. I recognize that some videos may cause a degree of defamation particularly of women, but there are programs on TV that do that already. Why should one not be shown because there is a titty, or any ass slappage? Why should bukake be considered obscene, but America's Next Top Model not? or anything having to do with Paris Hilton for that matter. Maybe there is a single bachelor/ette out there that wants to watch a video clip of a footjob, who am I to say that it is against the law to do so?

[Crystalmonkey]

I just know I am going to be shot down, ugh.

Anyone willing to help me list out the arguments and their reasons? It makes it so much easier to find evidence (both in the readings I have to do and outside).

[GenStyx]

I just know I am going to be shot down, ugh.

Anyone willing to help me list out the arguments and their reasons? It makes it so much easier to find evidence (both in the readings I have to do and outside).

What are these arguements of which you speak?
Topics? Questions? General Area of focus?
What would be your supporting arguements?
What are you trying to prove or what is your goal?