Topic: Of Magic and Doctrine (Read 4481 times)

Rico · « **on:** August 11, 2006, 04:36:50 PM »

Does the belief in magic necessarily preclude faith in God, or visa versa? I know it's an odd question, but I'm not accustomed to sitting
around like I have been the past week or so. It's driving me a little nuts, so I guess I just started thinking. Being a Christian, though not necessarily a devout nor a typical one, I believe strongly in my God. The Church tells us that magic is the domain of Lucifer and simply charlatan tricks for the most part. I'm willing to accept the likeliness of that, however I've been in the world for a number of years now.

In my various trips here and there in the world, I've bumped into some pretty weird stuff. I've seen dark things in corners that had nothing to do with any cast shadow, people that you could tell at first glance were darker than any mere absence of light, and I've also seen the flip-side in things like injured animals and people nursed back to health when there had been no hope before.

The good stuff can easily be explained by the grave of God, of course. It's the darker stuff that has no explanation in doctrine.
So, that's the background to my thought, of which I truly have no firm opinion.

I believe that the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy is veritas universalis in that the concept applies to all things. So,
it doesn't make sense that dark magic would exist without light to balance it. So does God grant certain people abilities that extend beyond the normal, or is that just the stuff of comic books and fantasy novels?

I was just curious what you folks thought.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2006, 04:52:47 PM »

Define "magic". If by "magic" you mean "supernatural" in nature or effect, then I don't think it by necessity precludes belief in the existence of God or a god or gods.

By definition, deities themselves are "supernatural", i.e., above or outside the physical natural laws of the universe.

But "magic" is mostly perception. Lots of natural phenomenon got labeled as "magic" by people in the past (and, unfortunately, still now, in the present) who didn't (or won't by choice) fully understand what they were observing, and did not have the scientific methods in place to come to more rational conclusions.

Likewise, some man-made phenomena can be misconstrued under the right circumstances.

Arthur C. Clarke said "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

To be sure, just take a flashlight, a CD player, and a stun gun back in time 1,000 years and as long as you have batteries for said devices, you'll be treated like some sort of supernatural scary thing.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2006, 05:20:30 PM »

Or the coke bottle in The Gods Must Be Crazy.

hackess · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2006, 08:29:15 PM »

* catwritr waits for the definition of "magic" in this context before replying further

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2006, 10:05:00 PM »

Quote from: catwritr on August 11, 2006, 08:29:15 PM

* catwritr waits for the definition of "magic" in this context before replying further

* Crystalmonkey nods in agreement

As a side note, Demo's definition of magic, which I happen to agree with, can also be logically extended in some circumstances to religious matters.

If it wasn't magic, it was often caused by God...

In fact, you used this in your question:

Quote from: Rico on August 11, 2006, 04:36:50 PM

The good stuff can easily be explained by the grave of God, of course.

Rico · « **Reply #5 on:** August 12, 2006, 03:19:10 AM »

Well, magic as in supernatural, as Demo suggested. "Dark magic" involves the summoning of demonic servants and the powers perception. I haven't really thought about it enough to be able to articulate it quite as well as I should have. Just something I was kind of kicking around this morning. I was thinking about a guy I met once who was dating an old classmate. He claimed to have a "pet demon," which I have to admit I now believe. I'd met him, and instantly knew he wasn't a good guy. A friend put it perfectly when she said after meeting him, she felt like she had to go home right then and shower. Another friend claimed to have seen shadows moving around him that shouldn't have been. I've seen stuff like that happen before with other folks, too.

All of that I've seen, but I was raised to believe that it didn't exist or if it did, I sure as hell shouldn't have anything to do with it. What I was wondering this morning was, why don't you see the existance of the flip side as readily? It should exist, and why would it be so bad to use it in the service of humanity if it did?

12AX7 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 12, 2006, 06:56:50 AM »

Quote from: Rico on August 12, 2006, 03:19:10 AM

why don't you see the existance of the flip side as readily?

Visit the Mother/Baby Unit of your closest hospital.
Visit the ER while you're there.

It's there. We just all seem to label it differently; because we like it, we're comfortable with it. So we make those "good" things "normal".

Scheherazade · « **Reply #7 on:** August 12, 2006, 11:32:24 AM »

Assuming for a moment that both magic and God exist...

When God created the world in 7 days, that's a bit magical, isn't it? The whole idea of God is pretty magical (not to mention far-fetched).

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2006, 11:43:19 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on August 12, 2006, 06:56:50 AM

It's there. We just all seem to label it differently; because we like it, we're comfortable with it. So we make those "good" things "normal".

Indeed, and even if it isn't normal we tend to focus on the negative instead of the positive. (Survival instinct from when "we" were "younger".)

Rico · « **Reply #9 on:** August 13, 2006, 11:58:05 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on August 12, 2006, 06:56:50 AM

Visit the Mother/Baby Unit of your closest hospital.
Visit the ER while you're there.

It's there. We just all seem to label it differently; because we like it, we're comfortable with it. So we make those "good" things "normal".

12, that's not really magical. We say it is, but every animal on the planet does the same thing in one form or another. Something magical would be outside the natural order of things. My dad once told me he'd seen another man heal a horse in a matter of days of something that should have killed the horse. Easily explained as medical, but for two things. One, my dad is an old horseman and if he says the horse will die, it'll die. Two, they had no anti-venom, and there's not much else you can medically do for a snakebite that old. Despite that, between one day and the next, an animal that should have been dead became fine. Well, I guess we attributed that one to the power of prayer. hmm, I wonder how many others were attributed to prayer that I've seen.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #10 on:** August 13, 2006, 10:35:59 PM »

Or, there were abnormal reaction, a mutation if you will... it does happen, and is part of evolution.

In any event, I don't see much of magic in the positive or negative sense, so I'm not sure I can help.

For instance:

"I've seen dark things in corners that had nothing to do with any cast shadow"

The eyes are an interesting organ, because we sometimes see things that are completely wrong (i.e. mirages or hallucinations), based in reallity but misleading (i.e. optical illusions), or are actually there. I've seen dark spots and blobs, especially at night (when the lights are very low), but that is usually an effect of different lighting/sources/defects/etc...

"people that you could tell at first glance were darker than any mere absence of light"

In what way? I mean body language is a science we're still exploring, as well as scents and other cues.

"flip-side in things like injured animals and people nursed back to health when there had been no hope before"

Again, we're pretty good at predicting what will happen, whether it be the weather or if someone will die, but the key word is that it is a PREDICTION, never a certainty.

My point is that although there are a LOT of things we don't know, it was often the case that people would say something is "magical" or "an act of god" to compensate for not knowing the REAL reason of something.

hackess · « **Reply #11 on:** August 14, 2006, 01:12:57 AM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on August 12, 2006, 06:56:50 AM

Visit the Mother/Baby Unit of your closest hospital.
Visit the ER while you're there.

Or the Psych ward instead of the ER.

Demonic summoning? Crap. Utter bullshit. Demons don't exist. Humanity made up demons and monsters, possession by "the devil" included, because we have to categorize and polarize. As humans, we like to be able to have an explanation, no matter how preposterous and unprovable that explanation may be. If we didn't give "evil" humans such supernatural "excuses," we'd have to accept that we too could be capable of acts or thoughts in the same vein.

TheJudge · « **Reply #12 on:** August 14, 2006, 07:10:18 AM »

They're not evil, they're chemically imbalanced!

Rico · « **Reply #13 on:** August 14, 2006, 12:25:21 PM »

Cat, I might have been able to believe what you say if I hadn't met that girls damn boyfriend. As it was, I'd heard he claimed to have a pet demon and really doubted it. At least, I did until I met him. He looked normal and everything, but as soon as I walked up to him, the hairs on the back of my neck stood straight up and my skin had a nasty feeling like you get after washing greasy dishes. I'm a stoic guy and don't really get freaked out easily, but I'd met a couple guys like him since and got the same reaction. I could be off my rocker, and I'm perfectly willing to admit to the possibility. I just don't really think so. Besides, crazy people are usually artists, poets, and web admins, or something to that effect.

Yeah, i fully believe in the existance of demons. Of course, I believe in the existance of an all-powerful God, too.

hackess · « **Reply #14 on:** August 14, 2006, 01:03:35 PM »

Evil, negative, creepy != demonic, dark magic

You may have gotten a bad vibe from him, but that doesn't mean he has a pet demon. It means he's creepy, or he's perfected the art of scaring people because it gets him off.

I get that same vibe from skeevey guys at the bar who are drooling into their cheap beer. I want nothing to do with them and I feel gross knowing they're even looking at me. It's the same thing. I can take care of myself and I don't feel threatened by them, but they make my skin crawl just the same.

Yes, us creatives are insane. So were half the scientists and politicos that made history.

Believe what you want. I still don't see magic.

xolik · « **Reply #15 on:** August 14, 2006, 02:38:40 PM »

My ma said I was possessed by demons once. Does that count?

Demosthenes · « **Reply #16 on:** August 14, 2006, 04:15:20 PM »

She meant the gay demons, right?

Everyone knows demons are gay. It was on the South Park movie, after all.

Rico · « **Reply #17 on:** August 17, 2006, 10:31:37 AM »

rofl, Demo.

Cat, I know what you're saying, but there's a difference between sleezy and the guy I met. In anycase, what are you doing at a bar hanging out with sleezy men?

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #18 on:** August 17, 2006, 12:54:33 PM »

Quote from: Rico on August 17, 2006, 10:31:37 AM

there's a difference between sleezy and the guy I met.

You would have to establish a standard for what defines someone as "sleezy" and then explain what characteristics that person exhibited. (And no, "I just felt funny" is not a valid characteristic.)

hackess · « **Reply #19 on:** August 17, 2006, 08:25:10 PM »

Quote from: Rico on August 17, 2006, 10:31:37 AM

Cat, I know what you're saying, but there's a difference between sleezy and the guy I met. In anycase, what are you doing at a bar hanging out with sleezy men?

My point was that the guy is most likely trying to intimidate people. Ask him to prove he's got a pet demon.

Who said I was hanging out with sleazy men? They're in every bar in the world, after all.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #20 on:** August 17, 2006, 09:19:14 PM »

Yup. Sometimes I'm one of them. Heck, one time even with cat present, so she can vouch for me.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2006, 09:49:46 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on August 17, 2006, 09:19:14 PM

Heck, one time even with cat present, so she can vouch for me.

I didn't realize being sleazy required having personal references...

Makes you wonder....

Demosthenes · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2006, 10:00:02 PM »

Yeah. Makes you wonder just what kind of personal references.

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Author Topic: Of Magic and Doctrine (Read 4481 times)

12AX7