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Author Topic: "cold" steam?  (Read 15343 times)

12AX7

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2009, 05:05:58 PM »
Quote from: Clear_Runway on October 27, 2009, 04:27:48 PM
I read that post and I was like "wow. I cant believe he actually thinks that is possible"

 There's a difference "believeing something is possible" and discussing ideas. If no one ever thought further what was thought impossible; we'd still have a flat Earth.
  Be careful to assume that just because someone is arguing a point online that they believe it. I was an electrician for over 10 years; I've worked in power plants, and built and/or installed something that uses power in just about every way you can conceive. I know full well the laws of thermodynamics, the fallacy of a "perpetual motion machine", how a transformer works and more importantly that IT ACTUALLY DOES take more ENERGY to run a coal (any kind) of plant than what it produces.
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12AX7

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2009, 05:09:27 PM »
Quote from: Clear_Runway on October 27, 2009, 05:02:39 PM
look, people have been trying to make a machine like that literally for millenia. it cannot be done. end of story.

  Says WHO "end of story"? You?? Get the fuck out. You'd be the one who de-funded Oppenheimer.
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ivan

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2009, 05:27:52 PM »
Quote from: 12AX7 on October 27, 2009, 05:05:58 PM
There's a difference "believeing something is possible" and discussing ideas. If no one ever thought further what was thought impossible; we'd still have a flat Earth.
  Be careful to assume that just because someone is arguing a point online that they believe it. I was an electrician for over 10 years; I've worked in power plants, and built and/or installed something that uses power in just about every way you can conceive. I know full well the laws of thermodynamics, the fallacy of a "perpetual motion machine", how a transformer works and more importantly that IT ACTUALLY DOES take more ENERGY to run a coal (any kind) of plant than what it produces.

Ok, so back to your idea. If you take out the bit about replacing the coal as fuel, there is still something to think about: what if some aspect of the process can be made a lot more efficient with a judicious application of some electricity. So maybe feeding back a little bit of the electricity can cause a jump in efficiency that increases output by more than what you are feeding back. Is that possible?

Here is the logic: coal-burning plants operate at 40% efficiency.

If we take 5% of the resulting power and feed it back, and there is no increase of efficiency, we are now operating at 35% efficiency.

But let's say the feedback causes a 10% increase in efficiency. Now the coal-burning plant is operating at 45% efficiency. We are still burning the same amount of coal, but we're getting more out of it.

This can work as long as the net energy output of the plant is the same as the energy input. The only way to gain efficiency is to reduce waste. If you can somehow use 5% of the produced electricity to reduce waste by 10%, you'll still be ahead, and no laws of physics will stand in your way.

But you'll never be able to replace the coal as the heat source with electricity produced by the plant -- that is simply not possible. God said so.

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ivan

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2009, 05:28:49 PM »
Quote from: 12AX7 on October 27, 2009, 05:09:27 PM
  Says WHO "end of story"? You?? Get the fuck out. You'd be the one who de-funded Oppenheimer.

Dude, if Oppenheimer had proposed a perpetual motion machine, he would've de-funded himself.
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"I TYPE 120 WORDS PER MINUTE, BUT IT'S IN MY OWN LANGUAGE!"  -Detta

xolik: WHERE IS OBAMA'S GIFT CERTIFICATE?
Demosthenes: Is that from the gifters movement?

Detta: Crappy old shorts and a tank top.  This is how I dress for work. Because my job is to get puked on.
Demosthenes: So is mine.  I work in IT.

bananaskittles: The world is 4chan and God is a troll.

12AX7

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2009, 05:35:59 PM »
  Yes. My original statement didnt have any basis other than "complaint": "WAH! They oughta..."  But when you began pointing things out; I figured; "Why not? Lets see what can be thought out"

  To make the idea work at all; you would either need
 a. Some form of "extra" (externally input) energy or
 b. Capacitance of either electricity, or heat.

  I don't think there's anything currently in existence that would do it. Not that it couldn't be invented; now that such a device would have been thought about and decided feasible to build.
  Actually, there may be such a device now (or near future)


 
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12AX7

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2009, 05:39:37 PM »
Quote from: ivan on October 27, 2009, 05:28:49 PM
Dude, if Oppenheimer had proposed a perpetual motion machine, he would've de-funded himself.


  Yes; but I didnt propose one. I suggested they shut off the coal after getting the plant running; no further thought than that.
  Besides; my point was that just because someone - EVERYone - tells you something is the absolute truth doesn't mean you should never question it nor discuss it.

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Clear_Runway

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2009, 05:42:31 PM »
all right, sorry. I just think its funny how some people get taken in by that sort of thing.

at a billion dollars a pop, those may well be the future. we could power the whole country at the bargain price of another bank bailout!
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ivan

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2009, 05:56:50 PM »
No need to worry. Our good friend John Hutchison is ever-vigilant in these matters.
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"I TYPE 120 WORDS PER MINUTE, BUT IT'S IN MY OWN LANGUAGE!"  -Detta

xolik: WHERE IS OBAMA'S GIFT CERTIFICATE?
Demosthenes: Is that from the gifters movement?

Detta: Crappy old shorts and a tank top.  This is how I dress for work. Because my job is to get puked on.
Demosthenes: So is mine.  I work in IT.

bananaskittles: The world is 4chan and God is a troll.

12AX7

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2009, 06:01:13 PM »
  Ok, my bad, this is the link I meant to post:

  link

  discussing the new thermal storage technology. That first link was just about the CSP plant.

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Clear_Runway

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2009, 08:29:20 PM »
youre telling me that a few tanks full of salt represent a breakthrough? spain must have really lowered it's standards :wink:
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"Scatman, fat man, black and white an brown man, tell me 'bout the color of your soul"
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TeraHammer

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2009, 11:01:12 AM »
Will think about this later, but know that one molucule H2O has by far not the same properties as a droplet of water.
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Fanatics are the first to betray their beliefs in order to defend it.

12AX7

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2009, 10:34:31 PM »
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BizB

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2009, 10:28:48 AM »
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12AX7

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2009, 12:52:05 PM »

   Nice! Very interesting...


   On another note; suppose we master quantum entanglement? What then?


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BizB

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2009, 01:56:47 PM »
...profit?
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Clear_Runway

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Re: "cold" steam?
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2009, 07:59:36 PM »
step 1: master quantum entanglement
step 2: ?
step 3: Profit!
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"Scatman, fat man, black and white an brown man, tell me 'bout the color of your soul"
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