Topic: Right to Exist (Read 7050 times)

Joe Sixpack · « **on:** January 08, 2008, 12:08:07 PM »

So maybe I listen to too much NPR (and Jonathan Coulton's song "Todd the T1000") but I have been hearing this phrase 'right to exist' - as in 'Israel's right to exist', or the song's titular robot not recognizing a human's 'right to exist' - and it has kind of stuck out to me.

What does it mean to have a right to exist?

When we think of the natural world, individual animals and even whole species don't have a right to exist unless they are fit enough to survive. We seem to accept this. When it comes to animals that aren't fit enough to survive in a world modified by human activity, however, this concept of 'right to exist' seems to kick in for them. Perhaps that is guilt on our part, or some genetically ingrained sense of justice (we feel it is not fair that a dumb salamander has to compete with our tool-using acumen). Whatever the reason, the idea that animals only have a right to exist when it's not our fault that they don't seems to be the majority opinion.

Furthermore, what does the concept of a 'right to exist' say about things that don't exist? Are zombies and snuff films and God *rimshot* having their rights violated, by definition? If so, what is the recourse for that? If there is none, and I don't see how there could be, what does that say about the sanctity of the Right to Exist in the first place?

I will end this little diatribe with a quote from the greatest piece of televised art that has ever existed - Futurama.

Leela: "In my dream Fry said he hid a gift for me in his locker. If it's true then he must still exist in some form."

Farnsworth: "Of course he still exists: As a frozen corpse in outer space!
...
Oh, I made myself sad."

ivan · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2008, 12:50:12 PM »

Right to exist can be seen as an irreducible cornerstone assumption for any system of ethics. If no one or nothing has that right, then what's there to protect?

concur re: Futurama. Will now scurry off to find update on status of upcomming new episodes.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2008, 01:03:35 PM »

There are lots of things I don't have a right to, but still try to bring to fruition, along with every other human being. The idea that people struggle for their rights and nothing else doesn't hold much water.

Bender's Big Score is out already. It starts out a little jerky but comes out quite good, in the vein of the Jurasisic Bark,The Sting, or Luck of the Fryish episodes.

ivan · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2008, 01:12:42 PM »

I don't want to watch the DVD. Perversely, I want them to chop it up into the familiar 24-minute pieces and air it with commercials on Comedy Central, just like they said they would a few weeks ago. Looks like those plans have changed again, and CC will be airing the movie some time this quarter. Bummer -- I just don't think I would enjoy a feature-lenght Futurama, although I by no means deny its right to exist.

12AX7 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2008, 01:34:08 PM »

"Right" to life is an axiom made up to be modified slightly as to concur with our (human) wishes, in my opinion. I think the true state is a privilege to life.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2008, 01:48:12 PM »

I tend to agree, but do you not feel that it is a short step from "Privelege to Exist" to "Might makes Right"?
If you have no rights, only priveleges, and the only way of hanging onto those priveleges is through the strength to keep them, what virtues exist other than strength?

Yes, that is a paraphrase of Mr. Han from Enter the Dragon.

12AX7 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2008, 02:05:55 PM »

Well, the entire idea of "rights" and "privileges", etc., is partly what separates us from the animals; and no, I don't think these made up ideas should be abandoned entirely. They DO serve the purpose we made them up for; but since we're kinda stupid anyway, of course there will be problems. I'm just pointing out that the idea of a right to... ANYthing is purely speculative and purely one-sided (human; as in 'not "God" or animal). We tend to adjust these parameters as we feel already; so I think the question would have to be, at this point, on an individual basis (who -specifically- lives/dies); instead of Is there a Right to Life.
Sort of, yes, but we made it up; so exactly who are we talking about specifically and what have they done good/bad; are they "worth" keeping, should they be executed/plug pulled/left to die/etc.

xolik · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2008, 02:06:54 PM »

When the day comes when I can afford to build my dream house, I'm going to be damned sure the plans include an 'accusing parlor' and an 'angry dome.'

12AX7 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2008, 02:07:32 PM »

I have a Tantrum Pantry.

TheJudge · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2008, 02:24:39 PM »

There is no such thing as the right to exist. I exist. It's not a right, I just do. No different then my coffee or my desk.

The idea or concept of "right" is a human fabrication and is soely related to a legal system. So I don't have the right to breath for example, but I do have the right to vote. The legal system does incorporate a series of "rights" which were created for the protection of life. For example, the legal clauses of the geneva convention are there to protect life. So in essence, dyin gis not illegal, but killing is.

People who use the phrase "I have the right to..." where it doesn't refer to a legal context may or may not have the right they claim. The other neat things about rights as that A - they change and B - they are geographic. So unless I am proven wrong, I say that nobody has the right to live. Creating such a right would be pointless. I could sue Jesus when my father dies of natural causes. He had the right to exist dammit! Of course, I would win because Jesus would not show up to defend himself, but my victory would be in vain because Jesus wouldn't compensate me either. Maybe if I prayed really really hard...

xolik · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2008, 02:46:44 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge on January 08, 2008, 02:24:39 PM

I could sue Jesus when my father dies of natural causes. He had the right to exist dammit! Of course, I would win because Jesus would not show up to defend himself, but my victory would be in vain because Jesus wouldn't compensate me either. Maybe if I prayed really really hard...

As an experienced legal professional (I've read many documents including the WoW EULA at least five times over, so I know my stuff) I would suggest you start by subpoenaing the Pope.

ivan · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2008, 02:56:19 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge on January 08, 2008, 02:24:39 PM

There is no such thing as the right to exist. I exist. It's not a right, I just do. No different then my coffee or my desk.

The idea or concept of "right" is a human fabrication

Fabrications, like cold corpses in space, exist.

A "right" is a concept, and as such, exists.

A system of ethics is a construct, and as such, exists.

A system of ethics cannot exist without the concept of "rights". You have to start with something. If you begin with the idea that there is no such thing as a right to exist, or a right to anything, then how do you proceed beyond that?

TheJudge · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2008, 03:43:24 PM »

If you look at it from that angle, then the "right to exist" exist, but it's not a right in itself. It just exist. Existence itself is not a right is what I should have said.
I like the pope comment. +1

12AX7 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2008, 03:52:00 PM »

Quote from: ivan on January 08, 2008, 02:56:19 PM

If you begin with the idea that there is no such thing as a right to exist, or a right to anything, then how do you proceed beyond that?

Be human about it. Make up the rights, and whether they apply or not.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2008, 03:57:13 PM »

If something has existed for a moment in time, doesn't that fullfil the right? When someone posits a right to exist and then fails to do so, it's fine because they didn't posit a right to exist for any period of time. So when I posit my rights, I am sure to delineate a begin time and an end time, which usually happens to be in perpetuity. Hell, it has worked for me so far....

Paladin · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2008, 04:00:48 PM »

Philosophy might not be my strong point, but there's a big difference between the "existence" of a concept and the "existence" of a corpse.

Other than that, of course rights are a fabrication of human culture. Somebody (or a species, or anything) has rights because a culture decides he/she/it has them. Some rights seem to me almost "natural", as i've been raised in a culture that regards them very high, some seem stupid. But that will change over time - probably less for "me" as an individual, but certainly for individuals of future generations.

I'm just glad our culture didn't decide that polio virus and the likes have rights, but i think we'll soon see people saying just that.

ivan · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2008, 04:34:30 PM »

The polio virus' right to exist ends where mine begins.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2008, 04:43:30 PM »

The notion of "right to exist" really boils down to the most basic of property arguments. In essence, making the assumption that you "own" yourself.

ivan · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2008, 05:01:21 PM »

Sure, in an atheist's eye.

For most people, the right to exist comes from God. When I argue that the right to exist is irreducible, that's what I'm talking about. If you want to create a system of ethics, you have to start with some basic assumption. If you believe in God, then that's it. If you do not, then you need a basic, abstract, unassailable concept to start with. Sort of, like, you know, God.

A right to exist is not a bad place to start, but if you question the right to exist, then you can't have a system of ethics, unless you make up something else, like... well, God. THEN you can say, well, God says I have the right to exist, but He didn't mention anything about YOU. So I will take your land and kill you.

By the way, along with the right to exist comes the right to protect yourself against those who say you don't have a right to exist. And if that right means your enemy must die, then so be it.

And the whole thing comes tumbling down like a house of cards, and you start over.

That's how ethical people live: they try, and try, and try again.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2008, 05:27:29 PM »

I think you may be right about that, but that doesn't that the God concept has to stay. Now that we have our edifice constructed (or when we get it), it seems to me that it can be self-supporting. We are now at least nominally capable of doing good things for their own sake, or because it makes us happy, etc... without the threat of damnation.

We needed unions in order to get 40 hour weeks and weekends, but that doesn't mean we still need unions in order to have those things.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2008, 05:33:54 PM »

Spoken like a non-exempt employee. 40 hour weeks and free weekends, yeah right

Actually with my job change I've actually been much closer to the 40 with weekends off, so I can't complain too much.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #21 on:** January 08, 2008, 05:34:47 PM »

I like the concept of unions quite a lot. The last one I was in, not so much.

ivan · « **Reply #22 on:** January 08, 2008, 05:38:52 PM »

Quote from: Joe Sixpack on January 08, 2008, 05:27:29 PM

I think you may be right about that, but that doesn't that the God concept has to stay.

I was obliquely stating that in fact the God concept has to go. Superstition is a shaky foundation for ethics.

Joe Sixpack · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2008, 06:56:15 PM »

I think maybe you do need it, at least at first. But like the UWA and Baptists, they just get in the way after a while.

Agent_Tachyon · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2008, 06:59:27 PM »

I see no reason why kids couldn't be raised without the idea.

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