Topic: The Apparently Necessary Random Stuff Thread (Read 934638 times)

jeee · « **Reply #2050 on:** April 18, 2007, 03:36:08 PM »

Quote from: ivan on April 18, 2007, 12:20:30 PM

However, I am endlessly perplexed when otherwise reasonable and intelligent people suffer fools.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #2051 on:** April 18, 2007, 04:06:41 PM »

* pbsaurus right click saves

ivan · « **Reply #2052 on:** April 18, 2007, 04:50:28 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge on April 18, 2007, 03:15:24 PM

When anything at all bothers you and it appears as though no one is reacting or doing anything, just talk to one of the mods.

Well, I don't think a request like "Hey, I demand that you ban {insert name} because I find him a waste of my time" would propmt moderators to act, nor should it.

Frankly, I'm a bit perplexed that people have an impression that HN moderators were draconian. We were often quite lenient. Some of us were largely absent, others would ban only very reluctantly. I suppose I have a reputation for being ogrish in that respect, which really stems merely from the showmanship with which I tried to spice up what would otherwise be a routine banning. The vast majority of those I banned were unquestionably spammers and trolls.

The celebrated cases which resulted in upsets and the occassional mass exodus were not actual bannings, as I remember them, but squables between regulars. In that respect, as a moderator, I was very liberal. I let it happen. Regular posters have earned their right to shape the forums as they see fit. My job, as I saw it, was to protect the forums against the barbarians beating at the gate, not against internal strife.

I attempted to maintain a unique set of standards. HN was a place where one could redeem oneself by posting even one intelligent, correctly spelled message, and where one could be banned for refusing to do so. And while that was true, one could also flaunt every rule with impunity as long as he made people laugh. I loved that. Nowlege and Needles could get away with murder, because what they posted was awesome, and made the forums worth reading. There was no pretense of a "free speech" forum. HN was a meritocracy in which every person was judged by what he posted.

I would love to hear former HNers' thoughts on this, even if they completely contradict or reflect poorly on me. I still don't entirely understand why people like Fade and Cat walked off, and what could've been done to prevent that.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #2053 on:** April 18, 2007, 05:48:00 PM »

My general rule of thumb on HN as a moderator was "does [whatever] make the forum more entertaining?".

That was how I made banning decisions there. If banning someone made the forum more entertaining, I did it. If doing so made the forum less entertaining, I held off.

Like ivan, the vast majority of people I banned on HN were spammers and trolls. But some I banned because it was funny to do so.

Some people that grated against other board members I kept around while I was in charge there. The main reason for that was because without a little variety -- even of the Fool genus -- the place would start to get boring in a hurry.

In most cases, when the rest of the board was calling for blood on someone I stubbornly didn't want to ban, if that individual stuck around, they almost always turned out to be a valuable member of the forum after time went by. I was only disappointed a few times.

You can't please everyone. I know this. Hell, sometimes not only does one not please everyone, but one struggles to even please a majority.

If I banned everyone on HN back-in-the-day that grated MY nerves or bothered ME in the way ivan described Evonus as bothering him, there would be some regulars on that list as well, at least a few of whom are in the "widely beloved" category by most, and some of whom may or may not have accounts here in addition to HN's forums.

So why didn't/don't I?

Is it because I'm more tolerant of this behavior than ivan or some others?

No, I don't think so. If anything, I'm probably more easily irritated by Teh Stupid than ivan is.

It's because it wouldn't be good for the forum as a whole, in my opinion, to whack every account that belonged to someone that got on my nerves.

If that means that some users are going to annoy some users, so be it. If they don't break the rules, and make an honest effort to be a part of the community and not just a drooling nimrod, I say "hey, why not? Who knows? They might grow into a quality member some day". I've seen it in the past, and I'm sure I'll see it again.

And if they get tired of the abuse they get from other regulars because they are continuing to be fools, it's their choice whether to stay or not.

But I dislike banning someone who's making an effort to contribute, even if they fall on their proverbial face in every attempt.

That kind of shit just stinks of high school clique-ishness, and I like to think that most of us are at least a little above that, a little more sophisticated than excluding someone because they're not fitting in as well into our little lovefest.

You don't have to like it. Hell, I don't have to like it either. Most of the reasons people have listed for which they dislike Evonus I happen to agree with.

Feel free to continue to call him out on the carpet for it. If he posts shit, or contradicts himself, or makes no sense, let him know. I'll not defend posts that are garbage or intentional trolls.

But as long as he's making an honest effort and isn't breaking the rules, I won't ban his account.

ivan · « **Reply #2054 on:** April 18, 2007, 06:32:13 PM »

That all makes a ton of sense, Demosthenes.

I'd like to add, on my own behalf, that my behaviour as a rank-and-file member here is different from my behaviour as a moderator at HN. I have no power over anyone -- all I have is words. So I use them, and I use them with no restraint, unlike the restraints I imposed upon myself when moderating. When I started a poll about banning Evonus, it was purely for antic reasons. I was laughing as I typed. It was funny to me, at the time, and I even thought it might be funny to Evonus. If he had any grit -- which I hope he does -- this would be just the kind of thread he could make a good showing in. But somehow my words were taken very seriously. Does anyone here think for one minute that I would've started such a thread if I thought it would actually cause Evonus to be banned? I doubt it. You should be accustomed to those kinds of antics from me. But I got everyone's message, which is basically that my jokes were too ill-natured for everyone's delicate sensibilities, and that Evonus is a precious buddling to be cherished and coddled.

Evonus, you should feel warm and welcomed, although I doubt unconditional acceptance is good for you. In any case, I've laid down the lance.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #2055 on:** April 18, 2007, 06:39:48 PM »

heh heh he said lance heh heh

ivan · « **Reply #2056 on:** April 18, 2007, 06:44:10 PM »

Here is an excerpt from The Secret Sharer, by Joseph Conrad:

Quote

There must have been some glare in the air to interfere with one's sight, because it was only just before the sun left us that my roaming eyes made out beyond the highest ridges of the principal islet of the group something which did away with the solemnity of perfect solitude. The tide of darkness flowed on swiftly; and with tropical suddenness a swarm of stars came out above the shadowy earth, while I lingered yet, my hand resting lightly on my ship's rail as if on the shoulder of a trusted friend. But, with all that multitude of celestial bodies staring down at one, the comfort of quiet communion with her was gone for good. And there were also disturbing sounds by this time--voices, footsteps forward; the steward flitted along the main-deck, a busily ministering spirit; a hand bell tinkled urgently under the poop deck....

I found my two officers waiting for me near the supper table, in the lighted cuddy. We sat down at once, and as I help ed the chief mate, I said:

"Are you aware that there is a ship anchored inside the islands? I saw her mastheads above the ridge as the sun went down."

He raised sharply his simple face, overcharged by a terrible growth of whisker, and emitted his usual ejaculations: "Bless my soul, sir! You don't say so!"

ivan · « **Reply #2057 on:** April 18, 2007, 06:50:33 PM »

Now, here is the same excerpt after running it through the pbsaurus filter:

Quote

There must have been some glare in the air to interfere with one's sight, because it was only just before the sun left us that my roaming eyes made out beyond the highest ridges of the principal islet of the group something which did away with the solemnity of perfect solitude. The tide of darkness flowed on swiftly; and with tropical suddenness a swarm of stars came out above the shadowy earth, while I lingered yet, my hand resting lightly on my ship's rail as if on the shoulder of a trusted friend. But, with all that multitude of celestial bodies staring down at one, the comfort of quiet communion with her was gone for good. And there were also disturbing sounds by this time--voices, footsteps forward; the steward flitted along the main-deck, a busily ministering spirit; a hand bell tinkled urgently under the poop deck....

I found my two officers waiting for me near the supper table, in the lighted cuddy. We sat down at once, and as I helped the chief mate, I said:

"Are you aware that there is a ship anchored inside the islands? I saw her mastheads above the ridge as the sun went down."

He raised sharply his simple face, overcharged by a terrible growth of whisker, and emitted his usual ejaculations: "Bless my soul, sir! You don't say so!"

Except Weird Tingly Feeling is a cuddy?

pbsaurus · « **Reply #2058 on:** April 18, 2007, 06:59:39 PM »

Close. But you missed disturbing sounds and mate. Heh heh, heh heh

TheJudge · « **Reply #2059 on:** April 18, 2007, 06:59:49 PM »

Ivan, I know I reacted differently than you probably expected, and it wasn't because I thought you were actually serious about the poll. I know you better than that. Give me some credit here! hehe! I posted because jokes of this nature were starting to be less and less funny in my opinion, and also I couldn't close my eyes on the fact that evonus was actually making efforts. I just felt he deserved a chance, yet he wasn't really getting one and I was a little pissed about that.

When I say send a pm to a mod, I don't mean whiny "OMG CAN U BAN FR34XST0RZ16263???" Banination is not the only solution, especially when I know Chris is hoping to get the number of registrations to go up. Hence my tolerant side, when I feel there is potential for redemption. If there is no potential, then I'm just like you and demo were on HN: It can stick around as long as it's entertaining. When it ceases to be funny, it's spatula time.

To answer your question about HN, I was one of those who was really really bored with it in the last months of its existence. I would rarely look it up, and rarely would I post anything. I'll be very honest with you. What did it for me was the DM trolling of random nonsense, and those who encouraged it. It was funny at first, but it got so out of hand so fast. When you get to the point where you login in the morning, looking forward to see what has been happening, and 75% of it is HUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! posted by regulars (and even moderators sometimes), well it's really not funny anymore. There were plenty of idiots out there already, we didn't need the inside jobs. Like you, I have limited time to invest on a forum, and that was a waste of it. So I left.

ivan · « **Reply #2060 on:** April 18, 2007, 07:06:13 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge on April 18, 2007, 06:59:49 PM

So I left.

By that time, so had I -- at least in spirit. A few months before it went down, I made one last attempt to revive it, and failed. Moderators can't save a forum from itself.

ivan · « **Reply #2061 on:** April 18, 2007, 07:07:41 PM »

Quote from: pbsaurus on April 18, 2007, 06:59:39 PM

Close. But you missed disturbing sounds and mate. Heh heh, heh heh

DANG!

Demosthenes · « **Reply #2062 on:** April 18, 2007, 07:18:45 PM »

Quote from: ivan on April 18, 2007, 06:32:13 PM

But I got everyone's message, which is basically that my jokes were too ill-natured for everyone's delicate sensibilities, and that Evonus is a precious buddling to be cherished and coddled.

I don't think we'll be "coddling" anyone here, and I think you know that.

pbsaurus · « **Reply #2063 on:** April 18, 2007, 07:21:10 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on April 18, 2007, 07:18:45 PM

I don't think we'll be "coddling" anyone here, and I think you know that.

Except for me of course, but then that goes without saying.

ivan · « **Reply #2064 on:** April 18, 2007, 07:24:19 PM »

Quote from: Demosthenes on April 18, 2007, 07:18:45 PM

I don't think we'll be "coddling" anyone here, and I think you know that.

I know. I just wanted to work in the "precious buddling" bit.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #2065 on:** April 18, 2007, 07:25:03 PM »

Quote from: ivan on April 18, 2007, 07:24:19 PM

I know. I just wanted to work in the "precious buddling" bit.

Right. Carry on then. As you were.

BizB · « **Reply #2066 on:** April 18, 2007, 08:02:18 PM »

HN was like a gang. You had to get jumped in to be accepted. You had to bring something to the "family" and you had to R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Aretha (or at least Martha).

Now, get funny or piss off.

12AX7 · « **Reply #2067 on:** April 18, 2007, 08:03:39 PM »

Quote from: BizB on April 18, 2007, 08:02:18 PM

HN was like a gang. You had to get jumped in to be accepted. You had to bring something to the "family" and you had to R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Aretha (or at least Martha).

Now, get funny or piss off.

con-fucking-cur

TheJudge · « **Reply #2068 on:** April 18, 2007, 08:26:15 PM »

Great, now let's all cuddle!

pbsaurus · « **Reply #2069 on:** April 18, 2007, 08:37:34 PM »

Quote from: TheJudge on April 18, 2007, 08:26:15 PM

Great, now let's all cuddle!

Sure, you bring the gravy.

12AX7 · « **Reply #2070 on:** April 18, 2007, 09:08:57 PM »

So we's a gravy cuddling gang now?

band name!!...

The Gravy Lumps

"G" Cuddles

Cuddlegravy

hackess · « **Reply #2071 on:** April 18, 2007, 10:01:29 PM »

Quote from: ivan on April 18, 2007, 04:50:28 PM

I would love to hear former HNers' thoughts on this, even if they completely contradict or reflect poorly on me. I still don't entirely understand why people like Fade and Cat walked off, and what could've been done to prevent that.

Because there was simply too much stupid, even from regulars (see TehJudge's comment on DM's trolling). It eventually became apparent that the only way to make it clear that the forum wasn't an appealing place any longer for those of us who were fed up with it was to leave.

By the way, ivan, I still love you.

Socrates · « **Reply #2072 on:** April 19, 2007, 06:56:16 AM »

I'll bring the cheese for pb's love fest.

From the point of view of someone who spent years on HN but very rarely said anything, it just going real boring to read during the year or so of it's existence. I'm just glad I found out about here before HN went belly up. I know I don't say much on the forums but I do read every day. I enjoy the serious discussions, the movie/music/book recommendations, the helpful technical bits and yes the jokes and stupidity. Since this forum technically belongs to Chris I think what really matters is that he is happy with the way it is growing. If it changes into something I don't enjoy to read I'll stop reading.

For me what is important is that I can imagine hanging out in a bar with a bunch of you and I think the conversations wouldn't be much different than they are here on the forum. Speaking of bar's I miss hearing from Ergo, and that crazy swede Kryzec.

back to work....

BizB · « **Reply #2073 on:** April 19, 2007, 07:52:41 AM »

My only complaint with The Geek Forum (OMGLOLBBQWTF!!!11!one!) - and the internets in general - is that I've grown weary of serious discussions online in general and even though I want to spew forth my (correct) opinions on matters that appear to be life-altering and of utmost importance, I realize that there's no point. I just don't have the energy to explain to the likes of Evonus how he is wrong when he explains that because the government doesn't take away all of our rights, they're 'granting' us rights. That's like saying that because time hasn't allowed star light to reach us from all corners of the universe, time is thereby granting us darkness.

This complaint of mine, of course, isn't going to be resolved here, or anywhere else online. So, I'll skim those discussions and, where I see fit, I'll interject something funny in an attempt to derail the serious tone and remind everyone where they are.

Darkness just is.

milifist · « **Reply #2074 on:** April 19, 2007, 08:58:09 AM »

The decline and fall of Hacker Network was the result of four major events (I might not be remembering them in the correct order):

!. The server hack that broke the frontpage. When I had joined, the frontpage was a constantly changing showcase of the interesting and funny topics from the forum. It may seem kind of silly, but getting a topic on the frontpage was an incentive to post good topics (at least it was for me). It was a way to gauge the quality of topics. It also brought in a steady flow of members that became regulars. The site seemed more alive to the casual observer.

@. BizB got a new job. Before the new job, BizB would post several new, interesting or funny topics in the first few hours of the work day. BizB played a major part in setting topics of discussion and the general tone for the day.

#. Demo quit. He was also a major player in creating the topics of the day. You can't have such a loud voice in a room go silent without making the room seem a little empty.

Eventually other members started drifting away. More so than the regular ebb and flow of a forum. This was a gradual diaspora. In the vacuum of real topics, nonsense flourished. Some of the nonsense could even be entertaining (well, if you like DM's sense of humour [which I do]). There wasn't anything else going on. Even the flow of script kiddies to screw with had slowed.

$. The Turkish deathblow. It was almost merciful when it came. Although, I still miss screwing with the script kiddies. At very least, it is a shame that the old forum couldn't be restored and locked as some sort a museum.

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