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• (January 12, 2023, 01:18:11 AM)

[xolik]

The only thing I notice is that a suprisingly large number of homeless people I encounter all claim to be veterans of sorts.

[12AX7]

Yeh. "claim" would be the operative word there, I believe.
I'd like to hear one claim to be a veteran of the "Work Force".

[ivan]

Probably fell out of one of the pockets of a pair of lusty teens.

Consider it a gettin'-it-on-in-your-Vega tax.

Nos, I posted this yesterday in that thread that was created and deleted by that oddly pluralistic fellow, but I gotta say that while I can see how Gervais' schtick can become tiresome, it hasn't for me, nor for my immediate and even extended family. I've given box sets of The Office as gifts more than once. Maybe it plays better over here than in Blighty. But in any case, how could you not have been at least mildly amused by the Extras episode with Ross Kemp? What a love gift (unless, of course, EastEnders is such an anathema that you can't tolerate the sight of a Mitchell, even when it's a lampoon). The scene where Maggie is hopelessly confused by the Kemp and Mitchell brothers is perfect.

But then, of course, I also still laugh at my tape of Mike Reid.

[Nosferatu]

Bits of it are chuckleworthy, I'll give you, but the way he repeats the same foot-in-mouth gag over and over again grates on me.  I'm sure I could find him funny if he could get out of the whole awkward situations are funny rut he's been in for the last few years.  Such situations would have more effect if he didn't go around getting himself in them several times every episode.

I have been told though that most people who didn't like The Office have never worked in an office.  I hear stuff like "It's so true!" thrown around alot, so perhaps it's my own inexperience that leads me to miss the humour.

As for Eastenders, it's actually the only British soap I can tollerate.  After spending years avoiding all of them,  I caught an omnibus edition one Sunday through boredom and lack of any other stimulating TV and became interested in one of thier arcs, I've been an on-off viewer ever since.

[Evonus]

I despise two-legged, two-armed beggars. Get a fucking job, or have the balls enough to rob someone. Just how fucking lazy can one person be...

Yeah I feel the same way. I feel bad for the disabled people, but in all honesty, of all the homeless I've run into over the years, the actual or at least seemingly disabled people were less than 5% of them.

[ivan]

A local publicly funded station here has been airing EastEnders in order since 1988. It airs 2 episodes every week, so when it began it was 3 years behind the episodes aired in England. But after BBC went to -- what is it now, 4 episodes every week? -- our local station still only shows 2, so we have fallen further behind and are now watching episodes from 2001, even though the station tried to catch us up a bit by skipping a year back in the 90s, the bastards, so I never saw Debs go bonkers and eat the dirt on Baby Hassan's grave. I came across the show by accident a couple of weeks after it began airing here. It was unlike any program I'd ever seen. They managed to stay within decency restrictions, but still convey the grittiness of a working class neighborhood. I was hooked from that day, even though it took a few weeks of intense listening before I could understand every word. Part of the realism of the early seasons was the constant background din, either street noise or jukeboxes or arguing neighbours. Totally cool, but you had to be pretty tuned in to the dialect to know what the hell everyone was muttering.

[Nosferatu]

It is a well made slice of London life - blown out of all proportion to make it interesting. =P

[Agent_Tachyon]

Yeah I feel the same way. I feel bad for the disabled people, but in all honesty, of all the homeless I've run into over the years, the actual or at least seemingly disabled people were less than 5% of them.

I'm not quite sure what to think about the homeless. Most of the ones I've seen seem to be at least slightly mentally ill in some way, and may not be able to help themselves. Still, simply giving them something won't help them much if they're too fucked in the brain to figure out how to get a job.

Getting a job seems a bit tough for a person who's been living on a street for years though. Suppose one of them (portrayed expertly by myself, who has never been homeless) suddenly got a bowlful of Brain Grain and wised up, and decided to head off to McDicks say, to get a job (this is assuming I'm not hooked on drugs, that's a whole other issue).

If it were me, I'd firstly head on over to the Rec center or somewhere else with a lost and found and steal me some new and relatively clean clothes.

I'd then head on over to a river or something suitable to clean myself and maybe get a haircut (I'd say I could probably steal enough change from various machines in a couple of days to afford one, less if I get an 8 dollar crewcut from the army barber), or about twenty minutes if I stole a pipecutter so I could get into a parking meter.

Of course, prior to any of this, a real hobo would get some food (but I'm still full of Brain Grain, so I don't bother), and then maybe some paint thinner. As far as food goes, on most days in my neighborhood the grocery stores leave all sorts of edible things in the dumpsters, and if you have some culinary talent there's always the 'sharpened broomhandle meets alley cat and shortly afterwards heat source' method of feeding onesself.

So now I'm cleaned up, full, and of course posessed of the necessary intelligence and know-how to do all this stuff (which of course most real hobos would be totally unable to do, since they're either mindfucked, lazy, or just plain like being hobos in which case they are in no position to beg), I'm ready to get a minimum wage job and help myself.

With some cunning and friend-making, I'd bet I could survive off food stolen from McDicks and other local sources, and smuggle water off the premises in bottles (I've tested this technique at my call center to GREAT SUCCESS!). With a portable mirror and razor and some other cheap things I could shave and brush my teeth daily in a bathroom stall and wash with moist towellettes or the aforementioned smuggled water.

After a while, (totally guessing here) let's say four months, I can afford to move into better accomodations and eventually rise until I'm in the comfortable middle class.

I'm not entirely sure why I just went through that whole exercise, since I don't think it's applicable to any real hobos, but it could make a cool book or maybe a summer adventure. That and I got to use 'Brain Grain Cereal' in a serious discussion about poverty.

[Nosferatu]

It sounds easy, but what most employers want from prospective employes is an address, phone number, bank account and (Not sure what the US equivilant is, if applicable) a National Insurance number.  Especially the bigger chains like McD's (I should know, I've just got through the interview stage for my very own McJob... Urgh.).

Somehow, I don't think they'd accept "The bench outside" as an address, "A payphone" as a phone number or "My pocket" as a bank account.

[Agent_Tachyon]

It sounds easy, but what most employers want from prospective employes is an address, phone number, bank account and (Not sure what the US equivilant is, if applicable) a National Insurance number.  Especially the bigger chains like McD's (I should know, I've just got through the interview stage for my very own McJob... Urgh.).

Somehow, I don't think they'd accept "The bench outside" as an address, "A payphone" as a phone number or "My pocket" as a bank account.

Oh damn I forgot about that. Well, I'd give a local business number to be my reference and hope they don't ever use it until I can afford a cheap cell phone (I got my current model from a garage sale for five bucks and registered it for 30 bucks). It doesn't take a lot to apply for a bank account, I could probably do that legitimately or else just get a MoneyMart account and cash my checks immediately to stash somewhere (maybe a local derelict 73 Vega), though I'd prefer to leave them in the bank to gain interest. As for an address, I could use a house that nobody is living in, preferably a really shitty one that isn't likely to be sold any time soon, and use it as a maildrop until I can afford a PO Box. Come to think of it, I could probably squat there for a while if the mood struck me.

[ivan]

If most homeless people are too mentally ill to hold a job, what would you propose doing about them? What if they are too mentally ill to care for themselves? No employer I have ever worked for would consider hiring a dirty-looking lunatic. No person I have ever met would patronize an establishment staffed by dirty-looking lunatics.

What do we do?

We have 2 options:

1. Institutionalize them.

2. Ignore them.

[Agent_Tachyon]

If most homeless people are too mentally ill to hold a job, what would you propose doing about them? What if they are too mentally ill to care for themselves? No employer I have ever worked for would consider hiring a dirty-looking lunatic. No person I have ever met would patronize an establishment staffed by dirty-looking lunatics.

What do we do?

We have 2 options:

1. Institutionalize them.

2. Ignore them.

That's essentially my conclusion (though if possible I'd prefer to replace #1 with Brain Grain). Being anti-authoritarian, I'd have to say I prefer #2 in the vast majority of cases. I'm going out on a limb here, with no research beyond what I've seen (feel free to call bullshit if you have some better data) and I think that most of the mindfucked ones have been on drugs for a long time. I don't think that anyone is ever FORCED to take drugs, and they're now fucked up by their own choices, and not my problem.

[ivan]

Oooo, harsh.

Well, it could be completely their fault, but still your problem. Having humans live in inhuman conditions, regardless of root cause, diminishes us all. Eventually it becomes more than a moral problem, too, as disease and crime flourish.

We really only have the first option.

[Agent_Tachyon]

I suppose. Would it be authoritarian for me to lock up somebody because they're mentally unable to take care of themselves? I could justify this on the grounds that they could potentially be a danger to others, and therefore must be removed. Maybe some of the less mindfucked ones would be open to the suggestion of going to some place to get cleaned out.

[12AX7]

Any one of the homeless who are actually handicapped should have the basic essentials neccessary to them - oh wait- they do in soup kitchens and shelters all over the fucking place.
 As far as a job; KEEP LOOKING. I've seen PLENTY of mentally and physically handicapped individuals who work a real job. It may not be a 75K/year endeavor, but neither is mine. Nor was the FIRST job I ever had, either. As a matter of fact; it took me around ( 40 - 15= 25) twenty-five years to finally land this job; and it STILL aint 75K...not even 55K.
  I've had the experience of EVERY SINGLE 'homeless' person that has approched me for a handout being able to walk, hold out both hands, speak English very well, and be "savvy" enough to NOT get a job and live off of handouts. If you can pull that off, you can get a fucking job. Not every employer wants/needs/cares about addreses, bank accounts, etc. - you guys are thinking of jobs YOU might apply for.  There's probably MORE work to be done in jobs NOT requiring all those credentials than there is requiring them. Don't forget how rural this nation STILL is.
  And furthermore, why is it the guy holding the sign "Will work for Food"  asks me 'Whats the job?" when we pull over to recruit him? Weird Tingly Feeling??? You're begging for food, but being choosy about what you want to do? (BTW- these are white dudes; not Mexicans. In my experience, the Mexicans will work their ASSES off without a peep of complaint)
  "Will work for food"...   Isn't that what we all do? How about going and applying for one like everybody else?

[Vespertine]

Hey!  Who the hell smited me today? And why?

[Agent_Tachyon]

Any one of the homeless who are actually handicapped should have the basic essentials neccessary to them - oh wait- they do in soup kitchens and shelters all over the fucking place.
 As far as a job; KEEP LOOKING. I've seen PLENTY of mentally and physically handicapped individuals who work a real job. It may not be a 75K/year endeavor, but neither is mine. Nor was the FIRST job I ever had, either. As a matter of fact; it took me around ( 40 - 15= 25) twenty-five years to finally land this job; and it STILL aint 75K...not even 55K.
  I've had the experience of EVERY SINGLE 'homeless' person that has approched me for a handout being able to walk, hold out both hands, speak English very well, and be "savvy" enough to NOT get a job and live off of handouts. If you can pull that off, you can get a fucking job. Not every employer wants/needs/cares about addreses, bank accounts, etc. - you guys are thinking of jobs YOU might apply for.  There's probably MORE work to be done in jobs NOT requiring all those credentials than there is requiring them. Don't forget how rural this nation STILL is.
  And furthermore, why is it the guy holding the sign "Will work for Food"  asks me 'Whats the job?" when we pull over to recruit him? Weird Tingly Feeling??? You're begging for food, but being choosy about what you want to do? (BTW- these are white dudes; not Mexicans. In my experience, the Mexicans will work their ASSES off without a peep of complaint)
  "Will work for food"...   Isn't that what we all do? How about going and applying for one like everybody else?

I definitely agree, I'd bet at least 90% of the homeless people COULD get jobs if they really wanted to. My moral dilemma rests instead with the borderline zombilike creatures who're too screwed up in the noggin to know their own names.

[12AX7]

Yeah; if the riff-raff were collected, and the actual needy folks were left; there would be (I imagine) so few that the problem could be easily solved.

[Agent_Tachyon]

I seem to recall Brazil having an interesting solution to that particular problem...

[12AX7]

They seem to be solving a few of the so-called 'serious global issues'.

[Evonus]

It sounds easy, but what most employers want from prospective employes is an address, phone number, bank account and (Not sure what the US equivilant is, if applicable) a National Insurance number.  Especially the bigger chains like McD's (I should know, I've just got through the interview stage for my very own McJob... Urgh.).

Somehow, I don't think they'd accept "The bench outside" as an address, "A payphone" as a phone number or "My pocket" as a bank account.

A lot of people say this, but I find it funny that Mexicans, and Caribbean people can come into this country, speaking no English, and some of them not even being in here legally, and yet still find a job. Restaurants will take pretty much anyone as a dishwasher or bus boy. You just can't be lazy.

If most homeless people are too mentally ill to hold a job, what would you propose doing about them? What if they are too mentally ill to care for themselves? No employer I have ever worked for would consider hiring a dirty-looking lunatic. No person I have ever met would patronize an establishment staffed by dirty-looking lunatics.

What do we do?

We have 2 options:

1. Institutionalize them.

2. Ignore them.

You forgot,

3. Set up an agency to help them get jobs.

It really doesn't take much to work as a Janitor or housekeeping staff, or like I said above, a dishwasher or whatnot. We have some mentally slow people working at my college that work in the housekeeping staff, and people who don't speak a word of English working as mechanics and such.

4. If all else fails, terminate them.

There's no point in keeping them alive if they can't even accomplish anything but a raise in the crime rate, and I don't think people that go bust their ass for 40-60 hours a week should have to shell out money to pay for people they don't care about.

[Agent_Tachyon]

3. Set up an agency to help them get jobs.

It really doesn't take much to work as a Janitor or housekeeping staff, or like I said above, a dishwasher or whatnot. We have some mentally slow people working at my college that work in the housekeeping staff, and people who don't speak a word of English working as mechanics and such.

4. If all else fails, terminate them.

There's no point in keeping them alive if they can't even accomplish anything but a raise in the crime rate, and I don't think people that go bust their ass for 40-60 hours a week should have to shell out money to pay for people they don't care about.

If I ever start a company (sort of a co-op collective thing I've been contemplating for some time) I'll make an effort to hire hobos to carry shit and stuff like that. #4 doesn't seem necessary, since as long as you don't give them any money they aren't exactly draining anybody's money (I'm assuming you're in the US where there is no socialized health care).

I was thinking about institutionalizing them and that's a real headscratcher. What right do I have to decide that the crazy dude outside mumbling about the devil squirrels bringing about the end of the world should be locked up if that makes him happy? I'm sure I know people who'd like to see me institutionalized for some of my more radical ideas (that trepanning would have WORKED if he hadn't stopped me...), and I sure wouldn't like that much.

The only reason I can think of that could justify that would be if they'd be happier after being treated, and I have no reason to think that would be the case, or if they were a danger to other people.

[Evonus]

Institutionalizing them is absolutely pointless. It's making an investment of money, land, and people, using up good resources, on people that'll never ever give any sort of return investment. I don't see the logic.

[pbsaurus]

Hey!  Who the hell smited me today? And why?

I applauded you today.

As for the homeless problem, most are mentally ill and do not have a support network.  If I become mentally ill, I have my wife, then beyond that my parents, siblings, in laws, etc.  Your typical homeless person doesn't have that.  Because they are mentally ill, the shelters usually don't make a good fit, plus many of the shelters are religious in nature and take the same tack that several have mentioned lately that they are able bodied and should pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  This doesn't work well with someone who is already paranoid and should be medicated not berated.  Anyhow, Ivan is correct.

As for the comment about employing the homeless.  I did when I was a restaurant manager and a couple of them worked out, for a while, but the regimentation of having to show up at a particular time, do a set task, and have to interact with others ultimately proved too hard for these people without the aforementioned support network.

[ivan]

Agent and 12AX7, from the vantage point of my advanced years, I submit humbly that a person who is capable of getting off the streets eventually does. The shelters and soup kitchens could be godsends to such individuals, and these individuals do not rely on such societal handouts indefinitely. However, that leaves behind what I believe to be the vast majority of homeless people -- folks who may appear to be fit of body and mind, but are actually screwed up in some way. These kinds of mentally ill people are the most aggravating, because they appear almost normal, and there should be no reason, from our point of view, for them to continue to live like animals; in fact, most of these kinds of people seem to prefer to live that way. But I don't think that's due to laziness, or a defect of character, but is a clear symptom of a mental disability.

I know this reasoning is very close to the Soviet's definition of insanity (who in their right mind would be against Communism? A dissident is by definition insane), but there has to be some kind of line drawn, or else society has no way of dealing with this problem. It is not illegal to be unemployed and homeless (as it was in Soviet Russia); it is not illegal to be crazy (as it has been in traditional societies); so what recourse does society have against a growing problem like this? Let me ask this another way: What kind of society are we that can look at a toothless old alcoholic grandma lying in the streets in a puddle of her own urine, and think this is somehow preferable to bunging her up in an institution?