Topic: This 13 year old has the biggest balls of them all! (Read 26049 times)

pbsaurus · « **on:** September 10, 2004, 06:25:42 PM »

yup definitely the biggest balls. Kudos to you Rachel!

Edited to update link.--c

xolik · « **Reply #1 on:** September 10, 2004, 10:16:09 PM »

Quote from: The Article

"She said it was against her religion to say the pledge."

Is it also against her religion to stand?

That's fine if she doesn't want to say anything. She should have to. But at least show some respect and get off your ass for the plegde.

Quote from: The Article

In West Bend, Rachel said that on the first day of class, her teacher nodded at her to stand for the pledge but she shook her head. After class, she said he asked her repeatedly why she didn't stand. She told him she did not need to give a reason.

If you're not even going to try to explain youself, then don't act shocked when people start acting like they did. She should have just explained it to the teacher right then and there to avoid any future incidents.

Quote from: The Article

"She said that even if you don't recite the pledge, you can at least stand to show respect for your country," Rachel said. "She said I should just stand and try it."

Guell said Rachel may have misinterpreted concern for her well-being as an attempt to change her behavior. "I personally feel really bad that she feels this way."

So she doesn't try to explain her actions, initially, only appears to hear what she wants to hear and then gets the "Freedom From Religion Foundation", which I am SURE doens't have any type of agenda at all, involved. Yeah, she's got guts alright.

But hey! It looks like she got everything she wanted. She doesn't have to stand during that awful, awful pledge, gets all kinds of media attention, becomes the poster child for a special interest org and gets a $1000 reward in the form of a scholarship to boot! Aces!

Vespertine · « **Reply #2 on:** September 10, 2004, 11:56:15 PM »

Quote from: xolik

Is it also against her religion to stand?

That's fine if she doesn't want to say anything. She should have to. But at least show some respect and get off your ass for the plegde.

Xolik, I am ashamed of you! Whether standing violates her religious beliefs or not, it is her perogative to make the choice. If she believes that she could be vilating her beliefs than she has a responsibility to stand up (no pun intended) for those beliefs. I applaud this girl for remaining true to herself under pressure; it shows strength of character.

Quote

If you're not even going to try to explain youself, then don't act shocked when people start acting like they did. She should have just explained it to the teacher right then and there to avoid any future incidents.

Maybe she thought that her personal, religious beliefs were none of the teachers business. Maybe once she got called to the principal's office (thinking she was in trouble) she thought that was the time to explain.

Quote

So she doesn't try to explain her actions, initially, only appears to hear what she wants to hear and then gets the "Freedom From Religion Foundation", which I am SURE doens't have any type of agenda at all, involved. Yeah, she's got guts alright.

But hey! It looks like she got everything she wanted. She doesn't have to stand during that awful, awful pledge, gets all kinds of media attention, becomes the poster child for a special interest org and gets a $1000 reward in the form of a scholarship to boot! Aces!

Does this organization have an agenda? Most likely, yes. Did she contact them to sign up as their poster child? Based on the story, no. I'm willing to bet that this kid had no idea her actions would prompt this kind of attention. For that matter, I'm willing to bet that if she had known she'd get this kind of attention, she would have just stood up and blended in. Trust me when I say that the vast majority of 13 year old girls do not want to be noticed like this. Personally, I think it does take guts to stay true to your beliefs, whatever they may be, at the age of 13.

Rico · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2004, 01:33:22 AM »

You know, I often hear the phrase, "If you don't like this country, leave it," in this type of situation. I admit that I find it offensive enough that I'm tempted to say the same. The problem, though, is that it is her perogative to stand or not, as she sees fit. The freedom of choice is something that all Americans are granted.

I do see the refusal to stand as a slap in the face of all service men and women that have risked their lives to defend that choice. Just as burning the American flag is a freedom we have, does that mean you should do it? I believe actions such as these show a profound lack of respect for our country and all those that have died defending it. One has to ask, "if you find this country so unworthy, why are you here?"

I'm not suggesting we kick out the malcontents, nor even restrict their demonstrations of... whatever they choose to label it this week. It's still cursing the grapes as you gorge yourself on the wine, though. That's just hypocritical, IMHO.

xolik · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2004, 11:46:26 AM »

Quote from: Vespertine

Xolik, I am ashamed of you! Whether standing violates her religious beliefs or not, it is her perogative to make the choice.

Indeed. And with choices come consequences. If you make an unpopular choice, you're going to have negative consequences. Yes, hooray for her for standing up for her beliefs. That's great! (no, I'm not being a wiseacre this time) However, when it turns out the nobody likes you afterwards for doing this, you can't whine about it. If I stuck a bumpersticker on the back of my car stating "9-11: Our Greatest Victory" and "They will all come tumbling down in the name of Allah" that's my right as well. However it would be absurd for me to wonder why my car gets vandalized every night. You know the hyper patriotic era we are in right now and this kind of thing is going to looked down upon.

Quote

Maybe she thought that her personal, religious beliefs were none of the teachers business. Maybe once she got called to the principal's office (thinking she was in trouble) she thought that was the time to explain.

She was asked lots of time by the teacher to explain herself and she wouldn't. She could have at least said, "It's a really personal thing, and I'd rather not go into it." and left it at that.

Quote

Does this organization have an agenda? Most likely, yes. Did she contact them to sign up as their poster child? Based on the story, no. I'm willing to bet that this kid had no idea her actions would prompt this kind of attention.

If this is the case, then the parents should be ashamed for letting their child be used as a tool.

xolik · « **Reply #5 on:** September 11, 2004, 11:48:48 AM »

Quote from: Rico

The freedom of choice is something that all Americans are granted.

And with those choices, come reactions, which may not be as rosey as you'd like them to be.

Quote

One has to ask, "if you find this country so unworthy, why are you here?"

Where else can you use the money you got from welfare to buy the matches to burn the flag with?

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** September 11, 2004, 02:59:00 PM »

The article was down when I tried to view it, so I couldn't read it to get an opinion, could someone please post the actual article?

Off Topic: If someone says to me "If you don't like it, leave", I do. Leave them out of the argument that is. That comment is known as a "red herring" because it is completely off topic. We are trying to debate whether the 13 year old had the right to refuse to stand up, and by saying that you are trying to throw us away from the fact that you have a weak argument. Use facts, not red herrings.

Off Off Topic: Red herring, for those who didn't know, comes from when people trying to run from bloodhounds would use red herrings to throw the dogs off the scent.

Edit: Decided to stop being stupid for the moment, check back later, I'm sure I'll do something dumb after.

hackess · « **Reply #7 on:** September 11, 2004, 03:31:49 PM »

Archived article has been posted.

Crystalmonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** September 11, 2004, 07:10:36 PM »

Nothing to see here.

History is editable.

hackess · « **Reply #9 on:** September 11, 2004, 07:22:26 PM »

You should have left it at your first post. ^That^ just makes you sound like an idiot.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2004, 08:42:03 AM »

Quote from: Rico

You know, I often hear the phrase, "If you don't like this country, leave it," in this type of situation. I admit that I find it offensive enough that I'm tempted to say the same. The problem, though, is that it is her perogative to stand or not, as she sees fit. The freedom of choice is something that all Americans are granted.

Except where one is under such immense pressure from one's betters that one feels like one is going to get into trouble by making that choice.

Quote

I do see the refusal to stand as a slap in the face of all service men and women that have risked their lives to defend that choice.

I risked my life to serve this country, and I don't see any slapping of any faces there. I see a girl who sees a conflict with her belief system, and is then ridiculed for standing her ground.

Quote

Just as burning the American flag is a freedom we have, does that mean you should do it? I believe actions such as these show a profound lack of respect for our country and all those that have died defending it.

And I believe that ridiculing those that are standing up for their rights show an even more profound lack of respect for our country and all those that have died defending it.

Quote

One has to ask, "if you find this country so unworthy, why are you here?"

One is also compelled to ask "if you want to live in a country where everyone should have the same belief systems and keep their opinions and dissent to themselves, why do you live in the 'Land of the Free'?".

Quote

I'm not suggesting we kick out the malcontents, nor even restrict their demonstrations of... whatever they choose to label it this week. It's still cursing the grapes as you gorge yourself on the wine, though. That's just hypocritical, IMHO.

Pot, meet kettle.

reimero · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:06:36 AM »

More power to her, I say. Her refusal to stand for and recite the Pledge of Allegiance is precisely what the First Amendment is all about.

Some people see vocal patriotism as a form of idolatry. We've been trained to treat the flag as something bordering on the sacred and to be treated with the same respect and deference that, say, a Catholic would show towards Communion or that a Muslim would show toward the Qu'ran. Thus, it's easy to see how it can be viewed as a sort of "religion" or religious institution.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:13:57 AM »

Well, that, and the fact that if you say the Pledge as written, it essentially requires the one reciting it to acknowledge a deity in the process.

avalanche · « **Reply #13 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:15:24 AM »

Not if you say it as it was originally written.

Demosthenes · « **Reply #14 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:17:20 AM »

Quote from: avalanche

Not if you say it as it was originally written.

Then you're not saying the Pledge Of Allegiance.

By law, the Pledge Of Allegiance of the United States Of America includes the words "under God", per Congress, signed into law by a sitting president, in 1955.

Saying it without that is tantamount to just making up your own words to the Star Spangled Banner.

avalanche · « **Reply #15 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:43:48 AM »

http://discuss.agonist.org/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=15485

I did not know all of that. See what happens when you research what you think you already know?

Demosthenes · « **Reply #16 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:47:00 AM »

Whoops, 1954. Not 1955. I knew that didn't feel quite right when I posted that.

avalanche · « **Reply #17 on:** September 13, 2004, 10:51:01 AM »

Interesting stuff on this guy's wesbite.

http://www.rexcurry.net/

reimero · « **Reply #18 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:18:24 AM »

Quote from: Demosthenes

Saying it without that is tantamount to just making up your own words to the Star Spangled Banner.

(To the tune of "The Star-Spangled Banner")

Here we stand waiting
For the ball game to start
Standing up in the heat
Baseball caps over our heart

Lots of banners and guns
Make me feel patriotic
Guys who won't sing along
Looking pretty idiotic

See the flag flying high
A tear comes to my eye
As the pompous singer
Tries to sing really high

Oh say can our national
anthem be played
Without prima donna- aaas
Trying toooo make theeeee gra-a-ade

xolik · « **Reply #19 on:** September 13, 2004, 11:40:55 AM »

^ Like Roseanne.

Gillivray · « **Reply #20 on:** September 13, 2004, 02:40:49 PM »

So, some of you are saying that it is great to live in this country and not have to give a rat's ass about being patriotic towards it?

I served 6 years in Det 1, Co H, 122nd INF Airborne Ranger (LRRP). I had to spend 18 months on Recon missions in Libya, Eygpt and Chad back in the 80's. And this I can tell you from experience... This is the best damn country to live in in the world. You think asking a 13 year old girl to stand up and recite the Pledge of Alliegence is borderline Communism? I mean, thats how some of you sound. When you are in another country, you abide by and follow their laws and customs. I did while I was in the Middle East and North Africa. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten far in their society. (Arabic is a tough language to speak)

I fought and would have given my life so that Americans can have freedoms. What she did was a slap in the face to people like me.

Now on the other hand, when I was a kid in junior high school, there was a kid who did the same thing. Every morning we would stand up and recite the Pledge of Alliegence and this one kid refused to because he said it was against his religon. It was Jehova Witnesses. Man did that kid catch hell from everyone.

I understand "rights" and the Constitution. I just think some people twist and distort it to serve their own purpose.

Ok, go ahead and rip this post to shreds................

avalanche · « **Reply #21 on:** September 13, 2004, 02:46:28 PM »

We didn't serve/fight for her right to not stand. We served/fought for her right to slap us.

reimero · « **Reply #22 on:** September 13, 2004, 03:42:47 PM »

Gillivray, I think you're missing the point here. I applaud your service and don't mean to detract from that in any way. But the reason you served and the reason you put up with what you did was precisely to defend that girl's right not to say the Pledge, or even to stand for it. As a patriot, you may not understand that: I often see the attitude of, "love it or leave it."

The point you're missing is that the United States was founded on the very principle that freedom of expression, even against your own country, is a basic one and one worth dying for. Some faiths preach that the Pledge is akin to idolatry. It doesn't mean they're not patriotic, it means they reserve that level of respect for their god and their god alone.

It's an interesting conundrum, but the fact is, that girl's freedom not to honor our country is at the very core of what this country was truly founded on. If you don't understand that, you don't understand our founding fathers' underlying principles.

Law · « **Reply #23 on:** September 13, 2004, 03:49:20 PM »

Quote from: Gillivray

I understand "rights" and the Constitution. I just think some people twist and distort it to serve their own purpose.

*dies of irony poisoning*

Gillivray · « **Reply #24 on:** September 13, 2004, 05:15:07 PM »

Reimero, I fully understand what your saying. And I do understand her rights and what she is doing. I guess it just kills me seeing people in this country and not giving a rats ass about it. I'm not singling her out by that comment either. It's just her story brought back a lot of bad memories. I watch documentaries on WW2 and seeing kids going down to the recruiting office and lying about their age just to get in and server their country. And today, people only want to go into the military to get college money. Almost everyone in this country use to be so patriotic back then. And now it just seems like no one cares anymore.

Funny thing is is that Jehova Witnesses see Pledging Alliegence to a flag as a form of idotary. I just think thats wierd, but they probably think I am wierd. LOL

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Author Topic: This 13 year old has the biggest balls of them all! (Read 26049 times)