The Geek Forum
Main Forums => Political Opinions => Topic started by: pbsaurus on September 10, 2004, 06:25:42 PM
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yup (http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=wsj:2004:09:10:385822:FRONT) definitely the biggest balls. Kudos to you Rachel!
Edited to update link.--c
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"She said it was against her religion to say the pledge."
Is it also against her religion to stand?
That's fine if she doesn't want to say anything. She should have to. But at least show some respect and get off your ass for the plegde.
In West Bend, Rachel said that on the first day of class, her teacher nodded at her to stand for the pledge but she shook her head. After class, she said he asked her repeatedly why she didn't stand. She told him she did not need to give a reason.
If you're not even going to try to explain youself, then don't act shocked when people start acting like they did. She should have just explained it to the teacher right then and there to avoid any future incidents.
"She said that even if you don't recite the pledge, you can at least stand to show respect for your country," Rachel said. "She said I should just stand and try it."
Guell said Rachel may have misinterpreted concern for her well-being as an attempt to change her behavior. "I personally feel really bad that she feels this way."
So she doesn't try to explain her actions, initially, only appears to hear what she wants to hear and then gets the "Freedom From Religion Foundation", which I am SURE doens't have any type of agenda at all, involved. Yeah, she's got guts alright.
But hey! It looks like she got everything she wanted. She doesn't have to stand during that awful, awful pledge, gets all kinds of media attention, becomes the poster child for a special interest org and gets a $1000 reward in the form of a scholarship to boot! Aces!
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Is it also against her religion to stand?
That's fine if she doesn't want to say anything. She should have to. But at least show some respect and get off your ass for the plegde.
Xolik, I am ashamed of you! Whether standing violates her religious beliefs or not, it is her perogative to make the choice. If she believes that she could be vilating her beliefs than she has a responsibility to stand up (no pun intended) for those beliefs. I applaud this girl for remaining true to herself under pressure; it shows strength of character.
If you're not even going to try to explain youself, then don't act shocked when people start acting like they did. She should have just explained it to the teacher right then and there to avoid any future incidents.
Maybe she thought that her personal, religious beliefs were none of the teachers business. Maybe once she got called to the principal's office (thinking she was in trouble) she thought that was the time to explain.
So she doesn't try to explain her actions, initially, only appears to hear what she wants to hear and then gets the "Freedom From Religion Foundation", which I am SURE doens't have any type of agenda at all, involved. Yeah, she's got guts alright.
But hey! It looks like she got everything she wanted. She doesn't have to stand during that awful, awful pledge, gets all kinds of media attention, becomes the poster child for a special interest org and gets a $1000 reward in the form of a scholarship to boot! Aces!
Does this organization have an agenda? Most likely, yes. Did she contact them to sign up as their poster child? Based on the story, no. I'm willing to bet that this kid had no idea her actions would prompt this kind of attention. For that matter, I'm willing to bet that if she had known she'd get this kind of attention, she would have just stood up and blended in. Trust me when I say that the vast majority of 13 year old girls do not want to be noticed like this. Personally, I think it does take guts to stay true to your beliefs, whatever they may be, at the age of 13.
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You know, I often hear the phrase, "If you don't like this country, leave it," in this type of situation. I admit that I find it offensive enough that I'm tempted to say the same. The problem, though, is that it is her perogative to stand or not, as she sees fit. The freedom of choice is something that all Americans are granted.
I do see the refusal to stand as a slap in the face of all service men and women that have risked their lives to defend that choice. Just as burning the American flag is a freedom we have, does that mean you should do it? I believe actions such as these show a profound lack of respect for our country and all those that have died defending it. One has to ask, "if you find this country so unworthy, why are you here?"
I'm not suggesting we kick out the malcontents, nor even restrict their demonstrations of... whatever they choose to label it this week. It's still cursing the grapes as you gorge yourself on the wine, though. That's just hypocritical, IMHO.
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Xolik, I am ashamed of you! Whether standing violates her religious beliefs or not, it is her perogative to make the choice.
Indeed. And with choices come consequences. If you make an unpopular choice, you're going to have negative consequences. Yes, hooray for her for standing up for her beliefs. That's great! (no, I'm not being a wiseacre this time) However, when it turns out the nobody likes you afterwards for doing this, you can't whine about it. If I stuck a bumpersticker on the back of my car stating "9-11: Our Greatest Victory" and "They will all come tumbling down in the name of Allah" that's my right as well. However it would be absurd for me to wonder why my car gets vandalized every night. You know the hyper patriotic era we are in right now and this kind of thing is going to looked down upon.
Maybe she thought that her personal, religious beliefs were none of the teachers business. Maybe once she got called to the principal's office (thinking she was in trouble) she thought that was the time to explain.
She was asked lots of time by the teacher to explain herself and she wouldn't. She could have at least said, "It's a really personal thing, and I'd rather not go into it." and left it at that.
Does this organization have an agenda? Most likely, yes. Did she contact them to sign up as their poster child? Based on the story, no. I'm willing to bet that this kid had no idea her actions would prompt this kind of attention.
If this is the case, then the parents should be ashamed for letting their child be used as a tool.
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The freedom of choice is something that all Americans are granted.
And with those choices, come reactions, which may not be as rosey as you'd like them to be.
One has to ask, "if you find this country so unworthy, why are you here?"
Where else can you use the money you got from welfare to buy the matches to burn the flag with?
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The article was down when I tried to view it, so I couldn't read it to get an opinion, could someone please post the actual article?
Off Topic: If someone says to me "If you don't like it, leave", I do. Leave them out of the argument that is. That comment is known as a "red herring" because it is completely off topic. We are trying to debate whether the 13 year old had the right to refuse to stand up, and by saying that you are trying to throw us away from the fact that you have a weak argument. Use facts, not red herrings.
Off Off Topic: Red herring, for those who didn't know, comes from when people trying to run from bloodhounds would use red herrings to throw the dogs off the scent.
Edit: Decided to stop being stupid for the moment, check back later, I'm sure I'll do something dumb after.
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Archived article has been posted.
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Nothing to see here.
History is editable.
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You should have left it at your first post. ^That^ just makes you sound like an idiot.
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You know, I often hear the phrase, "If you don't like this country, leave it," in this type of situation. I admit that I find it offensive enough that I'm tempted to say the same. The problem, though, is that it is her perogative to stand or not, as she sees fit. The freedom of choice is something that all Americans are granted.
Except where one is under such immense pressure from one's betters that one feels like one is going to get into trouble by making that choice.
I do see the refusal to stand as a slap in the face of all service men and women that have risked their lives to defend that choice.
I risked my life to serve this country, and I don't see any slapping of any faces there. I see a girl who sees a conflict with her belief system, and is then ridiculed for standing her ground.
Just as burning the American flag is a freedom we have, does that mean you should do it? I believe actions such as these show a profound lack of respect for our country and all those that have died defending it.
And I believe that ridiculing those that are standing up for their rights show an even more profound lack of respect for our country and all those that have died defending it.
One has to ask, "if you find this country so unworthy, why are you here?"
One is also compelled to ask "if you want to live in a country where everyone should have the same belief systems and keep their opinions and dissent to themselves, why do you live in the 'Land of the Free'?".
I'm not suggesting we kick out the malcontents, nor even restrict their demonstrations of... whatever they choose to label it this week. It's still cursing the grapes as you gorge yourself on the wine, though. That's just hypocritical, IMHO.
Pot, meet kettle.
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More power to her, I say. Her refusal to stand for and recite the Pledge of Allegiance is precisely what the First Amendment is all about.
Some people see vocal patriotism as a form of idolatry. We've been trained to treat the flag as something bordering on the sacred and to be treated with the same respect and deference that, say, a Catholic would show towards Communion or that a Muslim would show toward the Qu'ran. Thus, it's easy to see how it can be viewed as a sort of "religion" or religious institution.
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Well, that, and the fact that if you say the Pledge as written, it essentially requires the one reciting it to acknowledge a deity in the process.
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Not if you say it as it was originally written.
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Not if you say it as it was originally written.
Then you're not saying the Pledge Of Allegiance.
By law, the Pledge Of Allegiance of the United States Of America includes the words "under God", per Congress, signed into law by a sitting president, in 1955.
Saying it without that is tantamount to just making up your own words to the Star Spangled Banner.
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http://discuss.agonist.org/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=15485
I did not know all of that. See what happens when you research what you think you already know?
:P
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Whoops, 1954. Not 1955. I knew that didn't feel quite right when I posted that.
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Interesting stuff on this guy's wesbite.
http://www.rexcurry.net/
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Saying it without that is tantamount to just making up your own words to the Star Spangled Banner.
(To the tune of "The Star-Spangled Banner")
Here we stand waiting
For the ball game to start
Standing up in the heat
Baseball caps over our heart
Lots of banners and guns
Make me feel patriotic
Guys who won't sing along
Looking pretty idiotic
See the flag flying high
A tear comes to my eye
As the pompous singer
Tries to sing really high
Oh say can our national
anthem be played
Without prima donna- aaas
Trying toooo make theeeee gra-a-ade
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^ Like Roseanne. :lol:
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So, some of you are saying that it is great to live in this country and not have to give a rat's ass about being patriotic towards it?
I served 6 years in Det 1, Co H, 122nd INF Airborne Ranger (LRRP). I had to spend 18 months on Recon missions in Libya, Eygpt and Chad back in the 80's. And this I can tell you from experience... This is the best damn country to live in in the world. You think asking a 13 year old girl to stand up and recite the Pledge of Alliegence is borderline Communism? I mean, thats how some of you sound. When you are in another country, you abide by and follow their laws and customs. I did while I was in the Middle East and North Africa. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten far in their society. (Arabic is a tough language to speak)
I fought and would have given my life so that Americans can have freedoms. What she did was a slap in the face to people like me.
Now on the other hand, when I was a kid in junior high school, there was a kid who did the same thing. Every morning we would stand up and recite the Pledge of Alliegence and this one kid refused to because he said it was against his religon. It was Jehova Witnesses. Man did that kid catch hell from everyone.
I understand "rights" and the Constitution. I just think some people twist and distort it to serve their own purpose.
Ok, go ahead and rip this post to shreds................
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We didn't serve/fight for her right to not stand. We served/fought for her right to slap us.
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Gillivray, I think you're missing the point here. I applaud your service and don't mean to detract from that in any way. But the reason you served and the reason you put up with what you did was precisely to defend that girl's right not to say the Pledge, or even to stand for it. As a patriot, you may not understand that: I often see the attitude of, "love it or leave it."
The point you're missing is that the United States was founded on the very principle that freedom of expression, even against your own country, is a basic one and one worth dying for. Some faiths preach that the Pledge is akin to idolatry. It doesn't mean they're not patriotic, it means they reserve that level of respect for their god and their god alone.
It's an interesting conundrum, but the fact is, that girl's freedom not to honor our country is at the very core of what this country was truly founded on. If you don't understand that, you don't understand our founding fathers' underlying principles.
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I understand "rights" and the Constitution. I just think some people twist and distort it to serve their own purpose.
*dies of irony poisoning*
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Reimero, I fully understand what your saying. And I do understand her rights and what she is doing. I guess it just kills me seeing people in this country and not giving a rats ass about it. I'm not singling her out by that comment either. It's just her story brought back a lot of bad memories. I watch documentaries on WW2 and seeing kids going down to the recruiting office and lying about their age just to get in and server their country. And today, people only want to go into the military to get college money. Almost everyone in this country use to be so patriotic back then. And now it just seems like no one cares anymore.
Funny thing is is that Jehova Witnesses see Pledging Alliegence to a flag as a form of idotary. I just think thats wierd, but they probably think I am wierd. LOL
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I understand "rights" and the Constitution. I just think some people twist and distort it to serve their own purpose.
*dies of irony poisoning*
Y34h, R1Gh7, wH473v3r
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The great thing about this country is that it's one of the only countries in the world that guarantees your right to hate it and will proudly defend that right.
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The great thing about this country is that it's one of the only countries in the world that guarantees your right to hate it and will proudly defend that right.
Sad, but true. I think if people would spend some time in some of the hell holes I have been in around the world, they would sleep with the American flag. LOL
It's funny too, when I came back from the Middle East, I was on a military jet with no windows and the first that almost blinded me when I stepped off that jet in Atlanta was all the colors. 18 months of looking at tan, everything is tan over there. And yet I get off the jet and just an explosion of colors everywhere you looked. It was wild. But I am just babbling right now..........Almost quitting time
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The great thing about this country is that it's one of the only countries in the world that guarantees your right to hate it and will proudly defend that right.
Sad, but true. I think if people would spend some time in some of the hell holes I have been in around the world, they would sleep with the American flag.
I have. Both in uniform and out. I still support people's right to express themselves, even if it offends me. Allowing people the right to free expression doesn't mean you agree with it. This is the factor that most people seem to forget.
Y34h, R1Gh7, wH473v3r
But that was a super come-back too. Aces.
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I believe Voltaire is credited with the following:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
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I agree Catwritr, I might not agree with someone's belief's, but they do have the right to believe anyway they want. I mean, if everybody believed the way I do, this world would be too perfect. LOL j/k of course.
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Y34h, R1Gh7, wH473v3r
But that was a super come-back too. Aces.[/quote]
Thanks, it's been ages since I've spoken in l33t. LOL
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Demo, maybe you misunderstood me. I was saying that it's her right not say the Pledge. I've sworn to defend her right to do so. That doesn't mean that I can't find it offensive.
You people act like holding something sacred is a bad thing! Shame on me for feeling pride when I see the Colors go by at the head of a parade. Shame on me for respecting all the men in my family that have served and wanting show them that respect. How horrible that I believe in God and have the arrogance to admit it.
I'm hearing people bitch about how this girl is such a hero for showing disrespect to her countrymen. Make no mistake I do wholely believe that it was disrespect. What's her beliefs that keep her from admitting her allegience to this country? What religion does she prescribe to that says she's not allowed to do so? When a Jehova's Witness refuses to say that Pledge, I respect him for that. Some people will fault him, but it's his faith. Ask him why he refuses to say it and he'll even tell you. Ask this girl, and all you'll hear is some one trying to get attention.
I refuse to praise some kid for willfully refusing to honor the people that gave her the freedom to make that choice. God forbid we step on some one's right to be disrespectful. I like how I supported her right to do what she did, but only mentioned how I disagreed with it and was attacked for it. Does it bother you so very much that I believe what she did was disrespectful? Strange how the only two people who have stood up and said they find it offensive happen to be two that decided a long time ago that their country and honor was worth dying for, and even volonteered for duty that put in a position to demonstrate that belief.
Forgive my spelling, I get angry when something I hold dear is insulted. I think you'd find the same would happen if anyone were to disrespect several of you here.
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I'm hearing people bitch about how this girl is such a hero for showing disrespect to her countrymen.
I stopped reading from this point on. She didn't show disrespect. That's the whole point. You're the one who's showing disrespect to your county by making that statement.
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Demo, maybe you misunderstood me. I was saying that it's her right not say the Pledge. I've sworn to defend her right to do so. That doesn't mean that I can't find it offensive.
Fine, but don't give her shit for doing exactly what those rights you protected allow her to do.
I'm hearing people bitch about how this girl is such a hero for showing disrespect to her countrymen. Make no mistake I do wholely believe that it was disrespect. What's her beliefs that keep her from admitting her allegience to this country? What religion does she prescribe to that says she's not allowed to do so? When a Jehova's Witness refuses to say that Pledge, I respect him for that. Some people will fault him, but it's his faith. Ask him why he refuses to say it and he'll even tell you. Ask this girl, and all you'll hear is some one trying to get attention.
Who says one's objections to the Pledge have to be religious in nature? And why does her refusal to say the Pledge mean she's disloyal to the country?
I refuse to praise some kid for willfully refusing to honor the people that gave her the freedom to make that choice. God forbid we step on some one's right to be disrespectful. I like how I supported her right to do what she did, but only mentioned how I disagreed with it and was attacked for it. Does it bother you so very much that I believe what she did was disrespectful?
It's not because you disagreed with her. You could've just said you disagreed and left it at that. It's because you've now questioned her loyalty as an American citizen.
Strange how the only two people who have stood up and said they find it offensive happen to be two that decided a long time ago that their country and honor was worth dying for, and even volonteered for duty that put in a position to demonstrate that belief.
Yes, but on the other side of the coin are Demo and Law, who have both been in uniform, yet support this girl's right to refuse to say the Pledge regardless of whether they find it offensive. In fact, does personal offense matter in this particular instance? You've said yourself you understand her right to refuse, and isn't that all that matters? Otherwise we're getting into a question of personal morals, and that's a different argument entirely.
And for the last time, stop, stop, STOP using your service to the country to argue "holier than thou."
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And for the last time, stop, stop, STOP using your service to the country to argue "holier than thou."
Indeed. This isn't about you or your service.
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Yes, but on the other side of the coin are Demo and Law, who have both been in uniform, yet support this girl's right to refuse to say the Pledge regardless of whether they find it offensive.
And avalanche!
And for the last time, stop, stop, STOP using your service to the country to argue "holier than thou."
Yes, please. Either you're there to serve selflessly to defend the nation or you're there to be seen as a hero who deserves constant praise. Not everything you disagree with personally is an insult to American servicemen. It's offensive to you, a serviceman, but that's it. The two don't combine into a greater super-ego. You serve to defend her right to say or not say the pledge, you do not serve to make her say the pledge. That was a different army that fought to force it's citizens into strict patriotic compliance.
You disagree with her? Fine. But do not come in here harping on how she is a disloyal person who offends all military personnel. Just say you disagree and move on.
How horrible that I believe in God and have the arrogance to admit it.
The pledge of allegiance to a nation is not religious. Just because God is in the pledge does not make it a religious prayer. Refusing to say the pledge alone does not make the person anti-religious. How horrible that you believe in God and have the arrogance to think that that makes you better than someone else.
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Yes, but on the other side of the coin are Demo and Law, who have both been in uniform, yet support this girl's right to refuse to say the Pledge regardless of whether they find it offensive.
And avalanche!
Yes, and avalanche. My apologies for omitting you. :oops:
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Thanks for the props, law.
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I'm not knocking any of the other services, they have their place. The point isn't that I've served, but that my family has, and that my friends have, and do. Several of both groups have died in combat to protect this country and the freedoms we're granted here. I was pointing out that those of us in the Army joined this branch because we have no problems dying for our country. Not that the others do, but how many Airmen or Sailors have died in conflicts in the past 30 years as compared to soldiers and Marines? When I bring up that card, it's because I've asked the people that I serve with how they feel about it and recieved the same response.
Now, what's wrong with me feeling that what this girl has done is disrespectful? I believe it was just based off of what you all have told me about it. Not that she did it, but that she didn't want to say why she refused to say it. That tells me that she probably didn't have a reason. THAT I find offensive. I've heard the same people getting on to me bitch left and right aobut Bill Gates. You find what he has done to be just as wrong as me. Guess what, though. It's his right as an American. Just because you have a right to do something, doesn't mean you should. With freedom comes responsibility. What I see here, are people fighting for some one's right to do something, without burdening them with their responsibilities.
When I was in Korea, I went to a soccer game and they played their national anthem before the game. I stood at attention because, even in civilians, it was the right thing to do. There are ways to demonstrate respect without giving in to your beliefs. Getting off your ass while others salute our flag is one of them. There was nothing to say that she had to speak the pledge. There was no one forcing her to cover her heart. Tell me why it was so much effort for her to stand. This girl was blatenly disrepectful, and this whole crap about defending her is bull. If we don't hold ourselves accountable for our deeds, then some one else should, and if no one does, we get the same kind of thing going on today in our schools.
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I'm not knocking any of the other services, they have their place. The point isn't that I've served, but that my family has, and that my friends have, and do. Several of both groups have died in combat to protect this country and the freedoms we're granted here. I was pointing out that those of us in the Army joined this branch because we have no problems dying for our country. Not that the others do, but how many Airmen or Sailors have died in conflicts in the past 30 years as compared to soldiers and Marines? When I bring up that card, it's because I've asked the people that I serve with how they feel about it and recieved the same response.
Completely irrelevant to this discussion and therefore will be ignored.
Now, what's wrong with me feeling that what this girl has done is disrespectful?
There's not a damn thing wrong with you feeling it was disrespectful. But say it and move on. Some of the rest of us may find it disrespectful as well, but we're not bashing her because she's offended us. We're saluting her right to do so. Not many kids have even begun to question such ritualistic things as saying the Pledge or attending worship services.
<snip> Just because you have a right to do something, doesn't mean you should. With freedom comes responsibility. What I see here, are people fighting for some one's right to do something, without burdening them with their responsibilities.
Excuse me? Perhaps you want to revise that statement after you consider the group with which you're debating.
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I can understand where you're comming from, but in a sense, isn't what your describing social conformity to some degree? Because the majority feel that standing up is showing respect doesn't take away your right to sit down. You may not like that fact that I'll sit down, but I don't owe you anything and you certainly have no right to tell me to stand if I don't feel like it. If you and the rest of the majority who feel I should stand up pressure me to do so, aren't you in essentially stripping me from my freedom?
The issue is not about respect, it's about a fondamental right which people like yourself are suppose to defend. There's something very wrong when you can't even recognise what you are willing to die for.
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That girl's reasons are her business.
She doesn't need to justify herself to exercise her rights, no more than do I have to justify myself to exercise mine, or you yours, or anyone theirs.
Rights do not come in shades of grey. The aren't "well that's okay but THAT isn't unless there's a good reason!".
That defies what a "right" IS if that's how you're going to treat them.
Her right to remain seated and silent is hers to exercise, period. She doesn't have to justify it to her classmates, her teacher, and least of all you or I.
Maybe she objects to "under God" being a part of it.
Maybe she doesn't like the fact that by saying the "Pledge Of Allegiance" she's swearing loyalty to a country whose government is acting in a way in which she strongly disagrees.
Or maybe she just doesn't want to say it or stand because that's what everybody else was doing.
My point is, it doesn't matter. It's nobody's business but hers, and bullying her into feigning some sort of lip-service respect does a far greater disservice for those that gave their lives to protect our freedoms than her silently bowing out ever would.
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Cat, you attacked my use of my service. I responded. I'd hardly call it irrelevant.
You're absolutely right, Judge. She has that right, and she won't be arrested for it. To me it's ALL about respect. She's basically demonstrated that she has none. It would have been very simple for her to even just stand, but she chose not to. If you go to an.... I'm not sure what they call an Islamic service, but say you went to one. Wouldn't you keep your voice down, and not make a disturbance? I would. I don't believe as they do, but I have enough respect for them, and the great people that have lived and died in their religion to observe some form of just decorum. It's not comformity in the least.
I won't applaud her demonstration of her rights anymore than I would a loud Christian at an Islamic service. She was well within her rights, but she was still wrong. ...but... what can you do about it? Kids disrespect teachers and their elders all the time these days. I've got a little brother that's the same way. His only care is himself, and no one else. Never worries if his sister is doing okay or hurt by the comment he made, never worries that his mother may not have enough money to buy him that tank of gas. This lack of concern for your fellow people is an epidemic sweeping this nation, and what this girl just did is indicative of that. Maybe I'm wrong, I just think that patting her on the head and saying, "Way to exercise your liberties," is the best way to handle it.
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I won't applaud her demonstration of her rights anymore than I would a loud Christian at an Islamic service. She was well within her rights, but she was still wrong.
Rights cannot, by definition be "wrong".
And what she did was not disruptive in any way, shape, or form, until her teacher attracted everyone's attention to it and made a huge issue out of it.
This lack of concern for your fellow people is an epidemic sweeping this nation, and what this girl just did is indicative of that.
This lack of concern for what is happening to peoples' views of individual rights is the real epidemic sweeping this nation.
The fact that we are even discussing this "incident" is indicative of that.
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Your comparison of the armed services is irrelevant.
Furthermore, your having served does not give you the right to say what people can or cannot do with their rights. So you feel offended or disrespected. That's your problem. Not hers, not mine, and not anyone else's here. That is what I meant when I said stop using your service as "holier than thou." You don't get to make people's choices for them.
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What's the point of having a right if you can't exercice it freely without repercussions? That's not what a right is.
What you describe is consideration of others. Respect is highly subjective and in some cases, one action could be viewed favorably by one group, and offensive by another. Respect is simply a guideline to help a person determine the appropriate code of conduct in a specific environment or situation. But it still doesn't necessarly mean that it has to dictate your conduct.
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What's the point of having a right if you can't exercice it freely without repercussions? That's not what a right is.
What you describe is consideration of others. Respect is highly subjective and in some cases, one action could be viewed favorably by one group, and offensive by another. Respect is simply a guideline to help a person determine the appropriate code of conduct in a specific environment or situation. But it still doesn't necessarly mean that it has to dictate your conduct.
Fuck you, Judge (he said respectfully.)
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When in a situation with which you disagree or choose not to participate, "respect" generally indicates sitting or standing, hands or arms folded, and keeping an overall low profile. Making a scene is disrespectful.
For instance, if you are in a situation in which a prayer is being offered and you do not wish to participate in that prayer, the respectful thing to do is bow your head and wait till the prayer is over with. The disrespectful thing to do is to stand up, walk around or yell "screw all y'all!" (I work for a Catholic university, so prayers and invocations are quite common at university events. The university does not assume that all employees are Catholic, but does make an effort to reinforce its Catholic identity.)
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I'm not knocking any of the other services, they have their place. The point isn't that I've served, but that my family has, and that my friends have, and do. Several of both groups have died in combat to protect this country and the freedoms we're granted here. I was pointing out that those of us in the Army joined this branch because we have no problems dying for our country. Not that the others do, but how many Airmen or Sailors have died in conflicts in the past 30 years as compared to soldiers and Marines? When I bring up that card, it's because I've asked the people that I serve with how they feel about it and recieved the same response.
I know at least 4 members of the Army and 6 Marines that would beat the ever-loving shit out of you for that statement alone. Not to mention the widows and bereaved member of Naval and Air Force families. I'm not sure how you turned this into a discussion of why serving in the Army is better, but you're an idiot for it. You are no better than the third mate on a Coast Guard cutter or the cook on a Naval research vessel in Antarctica and your service is in no way better than theirs nor does it mean anything more.
I thought you were leaning a bit towards the lunatic fringe with your self-made hero worship, but now I realize you are a card carrying member.
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Summary of the conversation so far:
She has the right to stand!
No!
Yes!
No!
Yes!
No!
Yes!
No! It is disrespectful!
Yes! That doesn't matter!
No!
Yes!
No! And I am more patriotic than you!
etc...
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Summary of the conversation so far:
She has the right to stand!
No!
Yes!
No!
Yes!
No!
Yes!
No! It is disrespectful!
Yes! That doesn't matter!
No!
Yes!
No! And I am more patriotic than you!
etc...
Thank you for that completely irrelevant post. Without it, I don't think I'd have been able to figure out what was going on in this thread.
Get funny or piss off!
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<snip>
I'm hearing people bitch about how this girl is such a hero for showing disrespect to her countrymen. Make no mistake I do wholely believe that it was disrespect. What's her beliefs that keep her from admitting her allegience to this country? What religion does she prescribe to that says she's not allowed to do so? When a Jehova's Witness refuses to say that Pledge, I respect him for that. Some people will fault him, but it's his faith. Ask him why he refuses to say it and he'll even tell you. Ask this girl, and all you'll hear is some one trying to get attention.
</snip>
Rico, If you go back and read the article, you'll notice that this girl did tell the principal that it was against her religion. You say that you respect a Jehova's Witness for not participating. Since the article doesn't state what this girl's religion is, maybe she is a Jehova's Witness. Bottom line, if you're claiming that she showed disrespect toward her countrymen, you should know that I, as one of her countrymen, do not feel as though I have been disrespected.
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What's this thing with disrespected? Why the fuck would any self-confident individual care whether someone respected them or not? You sound just like the side-show rejects from the Rikki Lake or Jerry Springer show. I feel sorry for you for going to such effort to be offended by someone's actions.
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What's this thing with disrespected? Why the fuck would any self-confident individual care whether someone respected them or not? You sound just like the side-show rejects from the Rikki Lake or Jerry Springer show. I feel sorry for you for going to such effort to be offended by someone's actions.
Hey! I don't think you're respecting respect nearly enough!
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What's this thing with disrespected? Why the fuck would any self-confident individual care whether someone respected them or not? You sound just like the side-show rejects from the Rikki Lake or Jerry Springer show. I feel sorry for you for going to such effort to be offended by someone's actions.
Hey! I don't think you're respecting respect nearly enough!
Actually I don't. If respect wants to be respected it needs to earn my respect and that would require it to jump through quite a few hoops.
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Cat, you attacked my use of my service. I responded. I'd hardly call it irrelevant.
You're absolutely right, Judge. She has that right, and she won't be arrested for it. To me it's ALL about respect. She's basically demonstrated that she has none. It would have been very simple for her to even just stand, but she chose not to. If you go to an.... I'm not sure what they call an Islamic service, but say you went to one. Wouldn't you keep your voice down, and not make a disturbance? I would. I don't believe as they do, but I have enough respect for them, and the great people that have lived and died in their religion to observe some form of just decorum. It's not comformity in the least.
There's a major difference in the scenario you describe and Rachel's situation. The person in your hypothetical chooses to go to a religious service. On the other hand, Rachel didn't choose to go to school. She is, by law, forced to attend school up until a certain age or grade level (depending on how the law is written). Rachel is also subjected, by law, to hearing the pledge every damn day. Again, she has no choice in the matter. It's not like she walked into a totally foreign situation (like a mosque) stripped down and started ranting and raving. Now that would be disrespectful. Standing up for her beliefs, religious or otherwise, is not disrespectful. In a different post, you say that with freedoms come responsibility. I fully believe that it was (and is) her responsibility to stand up for what she believes in, and she did just that. To call her disrespectful is inaccurate. Her method of protest was very respectful and very responsible. She sat there quietly and never once 'made a scene'. I do applaud this girl for standing up for herself and doing it the way she did.
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The ones making the scene were the ones who wanted her to conform. Therein lies the problem: she wasn't standing up for anything or trying to make a point; it was the teacher, and in that regard, the teacher was COMPLETELY out of line.
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Yup, that's one of the big problems with public education. It pushes conformity, stifling critical thought.
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Yup, that's one of the big problems with public education. It pushes conformity, stifling critical thought.
Not neccessarily. If you can articulate your point of view well enough, you'll find others, including your instructor, more receptive to your ideas. Just don't expect them to change.
Hi, Vespertine! Still e-friends? *makes puppy dog eyes*
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Is it just me or do some of you enjoy the way people "buck" the system? I mean, it seems we call it a right, but some people seem to always want to go against the grain. Some said they applaud what this girl has done. But if she would have been at an anti-abortion rally (standing up for her rights), would we be having this conversation? It's just seems some groups do things not to exercise their rights, but to get attention.
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Demo, excelent point. The teacher really compounded the situation. Had she only waited until after the fact, and approached the girl privately, this would not have been blown into nearly as big a deal. I really do think that the teacher handled the situation poorly.
As far as the girl, she didn't mention religion until she got the principal, from what I understand. Had she stated that fact right off, it would have been over and done with. It really sounds to me like she was trying to get attention, then came up with something by the time she got to the principal. Maybe that's not the way it happened, but it just seems that way to me.
...and as far as me getting beat up because I pointed out that more sailors and airmen die training than in actual combat, I doubt it. Most marines and soldiers are proud of the fact that they chose a branch that offered them the privledge of paying the ultimate price for their country. That, and some of us just wanted the chance to shoot some one. I was out of line, though, and said as much to Demo privately. Same goes to Law, who if I remember correctly served in the National Guard? He's probably served the country more directly and in better roles than any of us active guys. The Guard get to actually go out and serve in communities after disasters and to help go in before hand and help prepare. In some ways, that's even better than getting shot at. Certainly more beneficial, anyway.
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Is it just me or do some of you enjoy the way people "buck" the system? I mean, it seems we call it a right, but some people seem to always want to go against the grain. Some said they applaud what this girl has done. But if she would have been at an anti-abortion rally (standing up for her rights), would we be having this conversation? It's just seems some groups do things not to exercise their rights, but to get attention.
If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally, she has every right to be there. I would not chastise her for exercising that right. Just as she has every right to choose to not stand during the Pledge.
That said, you are right that some groups do things to get attention. The radicals always paint the rest of us with a bad stroke.
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As far as the girl, she didn't mention religion until she got the principal, from what I understand. Had she stated that fact right off, it would have been over and done with.
As Demo said:
That girl's reasons are her business.
She doesn't need to justify herself to exercise her rights, no more than do I have to justify myself to exercise mine, or you yours, or anyone theirs.
It really sounds to me like she was trying to get attention, then came up with something by the time she got to the principal. Maybe that's not the way it happened, but it just seems that way to me.
She sat during the Pledge for three days before the teacher made a scene out of it. If she was just sitting quietly, how can it possibly be misconstrued as disrespect for the beliefs of her fellow classmates?
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Yup, that's one of the big problems with public education. It pushes conformity, stifling critical thought.
You should try private parochial education. *shudder*
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I was in the Air Force actually, along with avalanche. Yet, I still got to go places where people wanted to kill me
was pointing out that those of us in the Army joined this branch because we have no problems dying for our country. Not that the others do, but how many Airmen or Sailors have died in conflicts in the past 30 years as compared to soldiers and Marines?
and as far as me getting beat up because I pointed out that more sailors and airmen die training than in actual combat, I doubt it. Most marines and soldiers are proud of the fact that they chose a branch that offered them the privledge of paying the ultimate price for their country.
Nice backpedal.
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Happy break!
(http://efr.unigorn.nl/foreverfriends/cheer.gif)
Ok, back to ranting.
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While we applaud her right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Alligence, has anyone thought about this girls freedom of Religion right? You can not honestly tell me that at 13 years old, (or before) she made the decision to become a Jehova Witness?
What are your thoughts on this?
"If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally". This would be a an entirely different debate.
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While we applaud her right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Alligence, has anyone thought about this girls freedom of Religion right? You can not honestly tell me that at 13 years old, (or before) she made the decision to become a Jehova Witness?
What are your thoughts on this?
It was not stated what religion she aligned with. I, nor you, have no idea if she was a Jehovah's Witness or Muslim or, Pepeforbid :roll:, atheist.
"If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally". This would be a an entirely different debate.
Why would it have to be? We're talking about rights in general. She has every right to be at a pro-life rally or to be sitting during the Pledge. I don't care if you think it's "disrespectful" or offensive. You don't have to agree with her, you just should recognize her right to do so.
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Gillivray, it seems to me you're just bent out of shape because a girl won't conform with the level of patriotism you feel ought to be present in an American. You're obfuscating the real issue with a lot of emotional "what ifs" focusing on other emotional issues which may or may not be relevant (particularly considering that most abortions are carried out on private property where trespassing laws apply, whereas public schools are government-owned property and thereby bound by law to uphold certain freedoms. If this were a parochial school, your argument would have more weight.) The simple fact is that in public places, no one can be compelled to say a prayer or recite the Pledge of Allegiance or other similar activities. They can be precluded from being disruptive, but inactivity is inherently non-disruptive.
Your patriotism is admirable but I think you're allowing your emotions about this country to cloud the basic fundamental facts about this country. The girl did nothing wrong. The teacher was in the wrong here. End of story.
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I do in fact recognize her right not to stand during the Pledge. I think it boils down to change. I grew up in the Baseball, Apple Pie and Chevorlet America. I just wish our forefathers had been a little more precise in what they meant were our protected freedoms. Everyone has a different interpetation of what the Constitution is. I was raised up to respect this country and simply saying the Pledge of Alligence is one way to show my respect for this country. So from where I am standing, I think it is disrespectful. But it is just my opinion and opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one. LOL
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Your patriotism is admirable but I think you're allowing your emotions about this country to cloud the basic fundamental facts about this country.
Funny thing is, my wife and I did most of our house in antiques from the Americana era. All red, white and blue. We had our house appraised recently and when the appraiser showed up, she was more interested in all the Americana stuff than appraising our house. ROFL
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Are you going to address your own questions?
While we applaud her right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Alligence, has anyone thought about this girls freedom of Religion right? You can not honestly tell me that at 13 years old, (or before) she made the decision to become a Jehova Witness?
What are your thoughts on this?
"If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally". This would be a an entirely different debate.
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I just wish our forefathers had been a little more precise in what they meant were our protected freedoms. Everyone has a different interpetation of what the Constitution is. I was raised up to respect this country and simply saying the Pledge of Alligence is one way to show my respect for this country. So from where I am standing, I think it is disrespectful. But it is just my opinion and opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one. LOL
The Pledge of Allegiance is a knee-jerk reaction to the rise of Communism in the 1950's (the "under God" line being added because "godless communists" wouldn't be able to say it :roll: ). It has nothing to do with ordinary patriotism and certainly nothing to do with the founding fathers or the Constitution. One of the earliest things the Continental Congress did was to overturn the oath of allegiance to King George and refused to implement an oath to the new President. I think they would be mainly horrified if they knew that some people believe you're not an American unless you make a public pledge of it.
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Well, duh. They would have pledged to a state, not a flag.
In those days, you were a Virginian, first... American second.
*sigh*
The good ol' days.
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Well, a lot of virgins are still considered Americans, you know.
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Yes, but how many have their own wesbite?
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While we applaud her right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Alligence, has anyone thought about this girls freedom of Religion right? You can not honestly tell me that at 13 years old, (or before) she made the decision to become a Jehova Witness?
What are your thoughts on this?
"If she was at a pro-life/anti-abortion (ridiculous terminology, to be sure) rally". This would be a an entirely different debate.
While I do recognize this post as the strawman that it is, I'm going to address it anyway. With regard to her being a Jehova's Witness (or whatever religion she is), her "freedom of religion" right has not been violated. Children do not have constitutional protection from their parents taking them to church.
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I do in fact recognize her right not to stand during the Pledge. I think it boils down to change. I grew up in the Baseball, Apple Pie and Chevorlet America. I just wish our forefathers had been a little more precise in what they meant were our protected freedoms. Everyone has a different interpetation of what the Constitution is. I was raised up to respect this country and simply saying the Pledge of Alligence is one way to show my respect for this country. So from where I am standing, I think it is disrespectful. But it is just my opinion and opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one. LOL
Aha! You just pointed out the critical flaw in your entire argument: you were raised in Baseball, Apple Pie and Chevrolet America, which corresponded with the period we were all rejoicing we were free, not like those godless Communists.
Our protected freedoms - expression, religion, free press, freedom of assembly, the right of the people to bear arms, habeas corpus, the right not to be forced to quarter soldiers in your home - ALL arose from PRECISELY the situation you are criticizing. Franklin, Jefferson et al lived in a time when criticizing the monarch of England was tantamount to treason (and which is illegal to this day in Britain - at least "on British soil.") They lived in a time when states routinely established state religions and persecuted those who didn't go along. They lived in a time when ideas were put down and governments (monarchies, in particular) enjoyed great power.
In short, they wrote the Constitution precisely in such a way as to encourage the free exchange of ideas and to permit dissent in an open fashion. Their dream was of a nation in which that girl could choose not to recite a pledge or prayer and would face no repercussions. They explicitly wanted to avoid thought police or enforced patriotism.
You stated that everyone has a different interpretation of what the Constitution is. The fact is, EVERY legal scholar who knows U.S. Constitutional Law would agree that the Bill of Rights was written PRECISELY to permit unpatriotic dissent. Should smut be covered under free speech? There's (a little) room for debate there. What about swearing in public? Again, the question of public standards vs. free speech applies. But dissent on political or religious grounds? If that is even to be called into question, then the very roots of our Constitution are cast into doubt. This situation is the very model of what our founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Bill of Rights.
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Word.
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I posted a lengthy response, but deleted it. This argument can go on forever. It's probably easy to see that I lean to the right on the political agendas. I seem to be the only one here that thinks what she did (EVEN THOUGH IT IS HER RIGHT) was un-patriotic and boderline demeaning to the United States. If we're going to let our kids do stuff like this, then over time, there will be a civilization decline and we'll see a swastika on the American flag. We have to teach our kids to respect this country or they, which is our future, will destroy it.
This is my last post on this. Like I said, this debate could go on forever
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No, YOU are!
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Er.. I'm 17, and I've been sitting during the pledge for years due to my atheism. Where's my $1000? :(
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I posted a lengthy response, but deleted it. This argument can go on forever. It's probably easy to see that I lean to the right on the political agendas. I seem to be the only one here that thinks what she did (EVEN THOUGH IT IS HER RIGHT) was un-patriotic and boderline demeaning to the United States. If we're going to let our kids do stuff like this, then over time, there will be a civilization decline and we'll see a swastika on the American flag. We have to teach our kids to respect this country or they, which is our future, will destroy it.
This is my last post on this. Like I said, this debate could go on forever
I'm speaking from first-person POV here, since I've been sitting during the pledge for years. I respect the nation and would stand for the pledge, were the words "under God" not in it. Some people say to just ignore those words, but their entire existence makes the document offensive to me. I can't stand for something that offends me and my beliefs.
Were there a different way to respect the country, that wouldn't involve showing respect for offensive material, I would do it.
I'm a straight A student and am known by all my peers as one of the more intelligent kids in the grade. I never get in trouble at school and am by no means a rebel. It's an issue of the pledge just being offensive.
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<ForestGump>
the army must keep that money, cause I still ain't seen a nickle of that million dollars (http://www.jahozafat.com/Movies/Forrest_Gump/abullet.wav)
</ForestGump>
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If we're going to let our kids do stuff like this, then over time, there will be a civilization decline and we'll see a swastika on the American flag. We have to teach our kids to respect this country or they, which is our future, will destroy it.
Whoa. Did you skip your melodrama meds this morning?
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Law, that wasn't a backpeddle. It's exactly what I was saying to begin with. People in the Army and Marines joined because they wanted the excitement or the honor of being in a branch that is very combat orriented. Yes, others die in combat too, my nephew is Para-rescue. Doesn't change the fact that a whole lot more soldiers and Marines die in combat than you guys. As morbid as it is, most of us take pride in that fact, and yes, we see ourselves as being "better" in some ways. That's not really the right word, though. We all have our place, and none of us would be able to do our job without the others, but we each take pride in our service for one reason or another. Navy guys have some of the worst homelives I've ever seen. All that time on sea duty is extremely tough on families. I'm not sure what the Air Force does that really rough, but the Army and the Marines have our combat duty, and we ALL go to hot zones at some point in our career. The other branches can't stay with us on that level, so that's what we take pride in. That pride came through on a smartass comment I shouldn't have been making in the first place.
I highly doubt we'll be saluting Nazi flags before too long, but our country is certainly loosing it's sense of propriety. Wasn't it just a few years ago that a guy pissed in a bottle, put a cross in it, and called it art? It's perfectly alright to insult Christians, but if some one had done the same with some image of Islam, I bet we'd be hearing the cries of outrage for months. It's that lack of respect for other people that...
Nevermind. I think it's extremely disrespectful not to stand for the pledge, even if you don't say it. I don't see how standing can in anyway violate your conscience. All it does is show your respect for the beliefs of the people around you. I also believe you have the right to disrespect anything or anyone that you want. We're not even debating on whether it's legal or not, only that I'm wrong for being offended by it. I, for one, believe my sacred cows are part of what defines me, and I refuse to give them up. Sorry.
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Those of you that are offended by people who don't stand need to realize and understand that a lot of us that don't stand do it because the pledge offends us.
You're offended, we're offended.
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It's perfectly alright to insult Christians, but if some one had done the same with some image of Islam, I bet we'd be hearing the cries of outrage for months.
No, you wouldn't. It's done on the nighly news on a daily basis. You're pissed that someone made art with a crucifix? I'm pissed that someone fire-bombed a mosque and that the Florida community had to start an investigation of their own before the FBI would get involved. I'm pissed that Muslim women have their veils torn off "to teach them to be free." I'm pissed off that Muslim men and woman are afraid to go to work for fear that their co-workers may attack them. I'm pissed off that a gas station owner was beat to death for wearing a turban, and he wasn't even Muslim or Arab. He was a pacifist Sikh from India. You're pissed because someone defiled an icon that is worshipped by the religion that forbids its existence? Please.
I'm not sure what the Air Force does that really rough, but the Army and the Marines have our combat duty, and we ALL go to hot zones at some point in our career.
Ever heard of Somalia? Iraq? Afghanistan? The Air Force has combat duty too, maybe not in the size of deployment, but it still exists. And yes, you all go to hot zones... well, not really, some Marines and Army members never see combat duty or "hot zones."
The other branches can't stay with us on that level, so that's what we take pride in.
Nor are they supposed to, a) it's not a competition, b) it's not a suicide club. If you chose to join the Army so you'd have a better chance of dying for your country, I think you may want to swing by the psych's office.
We're not even debating on whether it's legal or not, only that I'm wrong for being offended by it.
No, we were talking about the actual issue. You came in and told us we should all be offended, because you, as a member of the armed forces, were. I'm not debating your right to be offended, I'm debating your right to tell others they can't be offended.
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We're not even debating on whether it's legal or not, only that I'm wrong for being offended by it.
No, we were talking about the actual issue. You came in and told us we should all be offended, because you, as a member of the armed forces, were. I'm not debating your right to be offended, I'm debating your right to tell others they can't be offended.
Precisely.
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No, you wouldn't. It's done on the nighly news on a daily basis. You're pissed that someone made art with a crucifix? I'm pissed that someone fire-bombed a mosque and that the Florida community had to start an investigation of their own before the FBI would get involved. I'm pissed that Muslim women have their veils torn off "to teach them to be free." I'm pissed off that Muslim men and woman are afraid to go to work for fear that their co-workers may attack them. I'm pissed off that a gas station owner was beat to death for wearing a turban, and he wasn't even Muslim or Arab. He was a pacifist Sikh from India. You're pissed because someone defiled an icon that is worshipped by the religion that forbids its existence? Please.
I have to cool down first before I can respond to this bullshit. Your pissed off, eh? I guess you missed all the news coverage that day back in September 11, 2001. Ok Law, since you don't watch the news, I'll give you the low down on what happened. 25 terrorists, gee who happened to be towelhead wearing Muslims. Anywho, they killed just a little over 3000 Americans on American soil while also bringing down 2 110 story buildings that were a beautiful landmark in New York. But your not pissed at that huh? Oh thats right, whats the left wing liberal response? "Their just expressing themselves". If you follow Islam, your a suspect. They should be scared. Before 9-11, I hadn't cried in 10-15 years. I cried that day.
Funny thing is, when I was in the Middle East, I met Muslims from all walks of life. 90% of them had the "kill the infedels" mentallity. You see, you haven't experianced half of the shit I have seen. So how can you debate an issue that you have no experiance from? Have you live and fought with them in the Middle East? Nope, your debating from your one source of information......CNN. (Now my turn) PLEASE
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Er.. I'm 17, and I've been sitting during the pledge for years due to my atheism. Where's my $1000? :(
Atheism is all the rage with you kids these days, isn't it?
**adds more fuel to the fire**
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You're responding from an emotional level, Gillivray. Cool off a bit longer next time.
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Right you are. Sorry Cat
I picked a reallt bad time to quit smoking. But I have to quit.
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Er.. I'm 17, and I've been sitting during the pledge for years due to my atheism. Where's my $1000? :(
Atheism is all the rage with you kids these days, isn't it?
**adds more fuel to the fire**
Considering I've been atheist ever since I was a toddler, I wouldn't say so.
I was raised with extremely religious grandparents and semi-religious parents, and I was taken to church, Sunday school, and a private church school for Kindergarten. But it didn't take long for me to realize I didn't actually believe any of it.
I can assure you I wasn't a five-year-old trying to "rebel" or be "cool".
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As a lifelong atheist myself, I can probably jump to your defense here.
There's no such thing as someone born a theist. Theists are made. Beliefs are formed.
Until that process occurs, one is an atheist.
Some people are brought up to believe in a certain religion, and continue to do so all their lives.
Some are brought up to believe in a certain religion, and never believe, either as a conscious choice, or as a lack of interest.
Some are brought up to believe in a certain religion and later reject it for a different one, or none at all.
I don't think it will ever be "trendy" to be an atheist in our lifetimes. We are still expected to live in a country that excludes us by way of its Pledge of Allegiance, its religion-based laws, and even its currency.
That's not going to change any time soon by my reckoning.
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I have to cool down first before I can respond to this bullshit. Your pissed off, eh? I guess you missed all the news coverage that day back in September 11, 2001. Ok Law, since you don't watch the news, I'll give you the low down on what happened. 25 terrorists, gee who happened to be towelhead wearing Muslims. Anywho, they killed just a little over 3000 Americans on American soil while also bringing down 2 110 story buildings that were a beautiful landmark in New York. But your not pissed at that huh? Oh thats right, whats the left wing liberal response? "Their just expressing themselves". If you follow Islam, your a suspect. They should be scared. Before 9-11, I hadn't cried in 10-15 years. I cried that day.
Funny thing is, when I was in the Middle East, I met Muslims from all walks of life. 90% of them had the "kill the infedels" mentallity. You see, you haven't experianced half of the shit I have seen. So how can you debate an issue that you have no experiance from? Have you live and fought with them in the Middle East? Nope, your debating from your one source of information......CNN. (Now my turn) PLEASE
Hey fuck nut, guess what? I'm Muslim. I'm also part Arab. That's towelhead and camel jockey or sand nigger to your stunted intelligence.
I have no experience? Okay, first your stunted logic fails to take into consideration that I lived in the Middle East for years. Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestine. I lived for two months in a refugee camp in Gaza. I travelled to almost all the remaining countries. I met one, ONE, person who shared the "death to the infidel" out look. Don't you dare tell me that your racial hatred trumps my actual experience.
Please don't tell me what happened on 9-11. I'm not an idiot, and I don't watch CNN. I lost 11 work collegeagues on one of the planes. I received death threats from people I've never met for three months. Did it matter to them that I was born and raised an American? Did it matter to them that every male in my family for 5 generation had served in the military? No, they were ignorant fucks such as yourself who got their opions and world view from Fox News and three minute speech they heard on the 700 Club one Sunday.
Yes, Arabs are responsible for 9-11. So, you have the right to now harass and kill them at will? Okay, 47,000 Iraqis have been killed in the last 2 years, 87% of from American military action. Do Iraqis now have the right to harass and kill Americans at will? Can they start with you to prove a point?
And I'm suspect because of my religion? Fine. You're Christian, I assume? They IRA used to kill civilians in the name of Catholicism. Now they're suspect. The KKK lynches people in the name of fundamentalist protestant America. Now, they're suspect. Maybe you're Jewish? The Irgun Zvai Leumi killed innocent British civilians in the name of Nationalism. they're suspect. The Meir Kahane gang and the Kach squadrons kill in the name of Orthodox Judaism. That covers them too. Shall I list off the Hindu and Baha'i gangs or terrorist groups, or can you maybe start to see the point? Don't think to hard, I know the light of logic can make it hard to see the fascist guidlines in your world.
This is you cooled down, huh? Well, have fun burning your cross tonight jackass. I hope your hatred keeps you real warm at night.
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I was brought to church and sunday school as a child. I too felt that it was bullshit. My mother would consider herself a christian, my father is more of an apathist. If I were to label myself I would probably be atheist, agnostic, or non-religious. I don't really subscribe to any belief system because all belief systems rely on blindly accepting someone elses viewpoint. I'm too much of a skeptic for that. All knowledge is based upon presuppostions, therefore there can be no knowledge. This reduces me to despair if I think of it too much, so I generally pass on the ontological, teleological, theological, and epistemological discussions since I don't believe, assert, or know anything.
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Hey Dicknose, then why are "YOUR" people not doing anything GODDAMN thing about trying to prove Islam is a good and loving religion? You can't because it's foundations are based upon hatered. Pure fucking hate. Your Prophet was a warrior, thats one of the main reasons Isalmic Fundamentalists are so goddamn gung ho about killing anyone that is not Muslim. I'm not Muslim, but you bet your sweet racist ass that when I am in public, I keep an eye on anyone looking Muslim. You attacked America once on our blind side and I'll be damned if it happens again.
Maybe because the only "kill all the infedels" I met in the Middle East is because they were the ones we werr gathering intelligence on. But I didn't meet too many that were happy to see us either. That was my first taste. Then 9-11 happens, you tell me why I believe the way I do? I had a friend in the 75th Ranger Regiment that was blown into a million pieces from a roadside bomb that (who planted it?) detonated when his patrol walked by the car. Don't whine to me about losing friends, we have all lost loved ones due to this "religious" holy war.
I don't think I would feel this way if your people would have just handed Bin Laden over in the first place. That would have proved to me that there are a lot of good Muslims in this world. And I know that there are some good ones out there. But there not doing anything to prove otherwise unless you can enlighten me about something I don't know.
Burning crosses? Please idiot, don't asscioate me with those ignorant country hicks.
And please, if you think I am ignorant, listen to yourself assuming what religion I am. I have no religion. I am an atheist. And I do the same thing with the KKK, the IRA, the JDL all of them. Because I am not with a specific religion, I feel like a target sometimes.
And besides that dickweed, did I single you out? Fuck no I did not. Did I refer to "law"? No I did not. But just like a true Muslim, you went off on a tanget. My point has been proven, thank you.
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All right, that's enough. :evil:
Gillivray, you post in this thread again and I'll ban you. You two stay away from each other.
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:?:
How, exactly, does one "look" Muslim?
Does that mean I "look" Atheist?
Oh, and that dicknose is a friend of mine who has intelligent, well-thought-out opinions and can express them articulately.
I suggest you apologize to him for being an insulting, infantile ignoramus.
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Hey Dicknose, then why are "YOUR" people not doing anything GODDAMN thing about trying to prove Islam is a good and loving religion? You can't because it's foundations are based upon hatered. Pure fucking hate. Your Prophet was a warrior, thats one of the main reasons Isalmic Fundamentalists are so goddamn gung ho about killing anyone that is not Muslim. I'm not Muslim, but you bet your sweet racist ass that when I am in public, I keep an eye on anyone looking Muslim. You attacked America once on our blind side and I'll be damned if it happens again.
Maybe because the only "kill all the infedels" I met in the Middle East is because they were the ones we werr gathering intelligence on. But I didn't meet too many that were happy to see us either. That was my first taste. Then 9-11 happens, you tell me why I believe the way I do? I had a friend in the 75th Ranger Regiment that was blown into a million pieces from a roadside bomb that (who planted it?) detonated when his patrol walked by the car. Don't whine to me about losing friends, we have all lost loved ones due to this "religious" holy war.
I don't think I would feel this way if your people would have just handed Bin Laden over in the first place. That would have proved to me that there are a lot of good Muslims in this world. And I know that there are some good ones out there. But there not doing anything to prove otherwise unless you can enlighten me about something I don't know.
Burning crosses? Please idiot, don't asscioate me with those ignorant counrty hicks.
:shock:
Whether you realize it or not, you offended Law's religion, ethnicity and ancestry, and now when he justifiably points that out, you start throwing around more insults?
Dude, you say you're not associated with those "ignorant country hicks." Your previous statements belie that.
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:?:
How, exactly, does one "look" Muslim?
Does that mean I "look" Atheist?
Oh, and that dicknose is a friend of mine who has intelligent, well-thought-out opinions and can express them articulately.
I suggest you apologize to him for being an insulting, infantile ignoramus.
Intelligent? He starts his post with "Fuck nut"? Give me a break.
Cat, go ahead a delete my account. I thought there would be intelligent debates here but all I see is the lack of it. So I won't be back. Have fun fun kiddies on your forum where you feel at peace bashing any and everyone. NO apologies here.
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Well, that pretty much answers that question.
:roll:
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Hey Dicknose, then why are "YOUR" people not doing anything GODDAMN thing about trying to prove Islam is a good and loving religion? You can't because it's foundations are based upon hatered. Pure fucking hate. Your Prophet was a warrior, thats one of the main reasons Isalmic Fundamentalists are so goddamn gung ho about killing anyone that is not Muslim. I'm not Muslim, but you bet your sweet racist ass that when I am in public, I keep an eye on anyone looking Muslim. You attacked America once on our blind side and I'll be damned if it happens again.
Maybe because the only "kill all the infedels" I met in the Middle East is because they were the ones we werr gathering intelligence on. But I didn't meet too many that were happy to see us either. That was my first taste. Then 9-11 happens, you tell me why I believe the way I do? I had a friend in the 75th Ranger Regiment that was blown into a million pieces from a roadside bomb that (who planted it?) detonated when his patrol walked by the car. Don't whine to me about losing friends, we have all lost loved ones due to this "religious" holy war.
I don't think I would feel this way if your people would have just handed Bin Laden over in the first place. That would have proved to me that there are a lot of good Muslims in this world. And I know that there are some good ones out there. But there not doing anything to prove otherwise unless you can enlighten me about something I don't know.
Burning crosses? Please idiot, don't asscioate me with those ignorant country hicks.
And please, if you think I am ignorant, listen to yourself assuming what religion I am. I have no religion. I am an atheist. And I do the same thing with the KKK, the IRA, the JDL all of them. Because I am not with a specific religion, I feel like a target sometimes.
And besides that dickweed, did I single you out? Fuck no I did not. Did I refer to "law"? No I did not. But just like a true Muslim, you went off on a tanget. My point has been proven, thank you.
Ahem.
You are completely out of line. Apologize to Law immediately for the blatant attack on his heritage and religion, or you're gone. It's that simple.
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Intelligent? He starts his post with "Fuck nut"? Give me a break.
Cat, go ahead a delete my account. I thought there would be intelligent debates here but all I see is the lack of it. So I won't be back. Have fun fun kiddies on your forum where you feel at peace bashing any and everyone. NO apologies here.
We're bashing any and everyone? Apparently everyone's been posting in a language I can't understand, because I'm fairly certain you're the one who started with the ethnic slurs and racism.
You won't be missed.
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You have no right to an intelligent response.
Ok Law, since you don't watch the news, I'll give you the low down on what happened. 25 terrorists, gee who happened to be towelhead wearing Muslims.
And yeah, I think that was addressed to me. But, maybe you meant the other Law...
:roll:
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This thread turned ugly really quickly. :( As for my previous not-so-serious remark about the 'trendiness' of Athiesm, that's only because of apart from some people who I really respect, Demo I'm looking in your direction, most younger folk I've talked with can only come up with 'cause God sucks, that's why' and 'you can't tell me what to believe, mom' type of responses. I will always respect somebody's difference of opinion, philosophy and belief system as long as they can articulate themselves. (I may not agree with it, but I'll be damned if I'm going to start name calling. Yeah, I'm talking to YOU, dicknose! :lol: ) And the vast majority of the people on this board have proven that they are more than capable of doing so.
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This reduces me to despair if I think of it too much, so I generally pass on the ontological, teleological, theological, and epistemological discussions since I don't believe, assert, or know anything.
I wish more people had insight like yours. Myself included. I've found myself going off half-cocked (heh heh) about issues that I didn't have all the info about. :(
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Sorry for the long post in advance folks, but this is some comedy gold here!
Hey Dicknose, then why are "YOUR" people not doing anything GODDAMN thing about trying to prove Islam is a good and loving religion?
God this is going to sound very leftist, but I sincerely belive there is no "your" people or "my" people. Just people. I hate it when people divide themselves up like this.
You can't because it's foundations are based upon hatered. Pure fucking hate. Your Prophet was a warrior, thats one of the main reasons Isalmic Fundamentalists are so goddamn gung ho about killing anyone that is not Muslim. I'm not Muslim....
This sounds hilarious when you read it. Really. I'm not Muslim, but I know everything about your faith. Brilliant.
...but you bet your sweet racist ass that when I am in public, I keep an eye on anyone looking Muslim.
Oh, you must mean any guy wearing a turban. Or is brown, maybe? Muslims could never wear a suit and tie, right? Obviously they all walk around with long unkept beards, black robes and carry a sign reading "Ask me about Allah!" Law, is your ass really sweet? I'm just wonderin' that's all. :lol:
You attacked America once on our blind side and I'll be damned if it happens again.
Law, when did you attack America? Why didn't you post about it? "Hay guyz, guess what I did today?" :lol:
Maybe because the only "kill all the infedels" I met in the Middle East is because they were the ones we werr gathering intelligence on. But I didn't meet too many that were happy to see us either.
Now why do you suppose that is? Maybe because you're spying, no wait, 'gathering intelligence' on them? If I had somebody watching every move I make just because I follow a certain religion, I'd be pissed too.
That was my first taste. Then 9-11 happens, you tell me why I believe the way I do?
Because you're a narrow-minded jackass? Just a guess. I'm suppose Saudis are A-OK in your book, still, right?
I had a friend in the 75th Ranger Regiment
I call bullshit.
that was blown into a million pieces from a roadside bomb that (who planted it?) detonated when his patrol walked by the car.
You mean when patrolling a war zone you got attacked? You don't say.
Don't whine to me about losing friends, we have all lost loved ones due to this "religious" holy war.
As opposed to the non-religious holy wars. I wonder how many innocent Iraqis have their loved ones killed? Oh, wait, we aren't supposed to care about them, right? Kill all the darkies! :roll:
I don't think I would feel this way if your people would have just handed Bin Laden over in the first place.
You mean, the Saudis, right? Like nobody over there knew where he was.
That would have proved to me that there are a lot of good Muslims in this world. And I know that there are some good ones out there. But there not doing anything to prove otherwise unless you can enlighten me about something I don't know.
What do you want them to do? Have a group of American Muslims come out and apologize for something they had nothing to do with? No good Muslims, huh. I guess Islamic charities don't exists. Oh, that's right, they're all terrorist fronts, right?
Burning crosses? Please idiot, don't asscioate me with those ignorant country hicks.
Sorry, Law, but I didn't see the connection there either. Maybe if given enough time....
And please, if you think I am ignorant, listen to yourself assuming what religion I am. I have no religion. I am an atheist. And I do the same thing with the KKK, the IRA, the JDL all of them. Because I am not with a specific religion, I feel like a target sometimes.
An equal opprotunity bigot! Aces!
And besides that dickweed, did I single you out? Fuck no I did not. Did I refer to "law"?
Read your own posts. "You attacked America."
No I did not. But just like a true Muslim, you went off on a tanget. My point has been proven, thank you.
How do you know what a True Muslim is? Speaking of going off on tangents, what did the attacks on 9-11 have to do with a school girl not wanting to recite the pledge?
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Hey, xol? He's been unceremoniously shown the door. Sorry. :shrug:
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Hey, xol? He's been unceremoniously shown the door. Sorry. :shrug:
Oh I know. I'm sure he'll lurk and read it though.
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From Korea
By Mike Park
A new acquaintance i met last week
used the word nigger in casual speak
he said dont worry
your not like them
you may be chinese but your just like me
Screw this im leaving
i dont need a racist friend
and im not like you
Im from Korea
my eyes are small
but your eyes are closed
another day, another emotion
playing a game he called me a fag
i said dont be an ignorant fool
you must be gay with your prejudice rules
Screw this im leaving
i dont need a racist friend
and im not like you
Im from Korea
my eyes are small
but your eyes are closed
equate the words
express yourself
lift up your arms
today, starting now this aint no fabled story here now
Screw this im leaving
i dont need a racist friend
and im not like you
Im from Korea
my eyes are small
but your eyes are closed
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Oh my...
What a fucking morron. I never thought I'd see someting like this here. Thanks for escorting out our racism guest.
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I don't know about the "trend" among "young folk" (I have to put the quotes, I'm 17 too after all), but from the people I'VE talked to, if they are athiest it isn't because they hate god, they just don't believe in him. I myself am Agnostic (Science is all for me).
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GO HUG A TREE LEAF BOY!
Just trying to cut the tension...
:D
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That's not funny
Just trying to cut the cheese :D
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It's ok, I had a chuckle
at the cheese joke (i still love you though Judge, yah silly hippy)
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I'm two seconds away from closing this thread. Cut it out with the empty-posts-but-you-still-need-to-scroll posts!! :evil:
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Sorry almighty Cat, guardian of the topic threads. *Bows head in fear and shame*
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Done
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Man, I'm sorry I missed this one. Gillivray, if you're still reading this, I realize that we haven't had much opportunity to talk, but I'd just like to say that you're a racist dick. :P
Don't you hate it when you come into one of these things after everything you wanted to say has been said?
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Thanks Xolik, that gave me a hearty laugh.
BTW, the burning crosses were a reference to the KKK who burn crosses on the lawns of black families to prove their religion (the KKK's) is superior. Ironically, most of the families are the same religion and don't violate every single tenet of it like the Knights do.
Hmm. It made sense at the time. I just used it as an example of happy Christian behavior compared to evil Muslim behavior. The funny part is that his asinine drivel made him sound exactly like the KKK he denied being anything like. (Also, he made the mistake of assuming that all the Knights of the KKK are country hicks.)
*shrug*
Meh. Nothing new.
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You are right, that did turn ugly quite fast. It seems people, no matter what their age, sex, gender, race, religion, all have different beliefs, and the basic human brain functions such that each immediatly begins to "push" their beliefs, values, ethnics, etc. on the remaining populace, with little or no regard for the other feelings present in society.
[/run on sentence]
I know this is a little late, but personally, I feel the whole "to each his own" schtick. Each individual, regardless of all characteristics of 'branding', has the right to his or her own opinion, un-debatable, un-definable, etc. For those out there who feel the need to force and/or argue beliefs with another human being, I really don't know what to say. It's impossible to comform one person without conforming the rest of the world at once, which, in itself, is impossible. One cannot be right, and the rest of the world cannot be wrong. It's purely a matter of logistics defining how we think, act, etc. which also isn't looked upon very positively.
There's really nothing anyone can do to 'stop' anyone from doing anything they desire. Laws, rules, definitions, staples...the list could continue. But what I am speaking now could just as easily be taken 'badly', and I could be inflicting some serious pain on some person's beliefs, and yet not know it or could do anything to change that. It's the 'eye of the beholder' schtick.
I could really continue for a long time, but I'll leave my nose out of what's already been completed, filed, and packed away. And I do apologize in advance if I do offend anyone with this post, I certainly did not intend to. Thanks.
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The only thing I have to add to that is, as long as what YOU do doesn't effect others in a way which they do not want, have at it.
If Joseph wants me to hit his toe with a hammer, he signs a paper and then I smash his toe. All good.
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Time to end this on a funny note.
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That was funny Xolik! I wonder if I could adapt that form to make it a management tool in the office.
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you bet your sweet racist ass that when I am in public, I keep an eye on anyone looking Muslim.
I wonder if he saw my picture in the Gallery. I would love to think he's freaking out now every time a white guy with brown hair and blue eyes comes near him.
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(http://www.gotthegeek.com/the_judge/images/terror_law.jpg)
No offense meant of course.
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Even made up to look like Osama, Law still looks 12.
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(http://www.int4rw3b.com/emoticons/spit.gif)
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Nice!
Here's a real one of me:
(http://www.speakeasy.org/~bunzioli/afghan2.JPG)