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Main Forums => New Geeks on the Block => Topic started by: undercovernerd on March 20, 2007, 02:34:19 PM

Title: Turing Test
Post by: undercovernerd on March 20, 2007, 02:34:19 PM
Hey everyone,

My name is Meagan and I'm new here.

I was wondering if anyone know a bit about the Turing Test.
I am trying to find out if there are any current supporters (preferably professionals) of the Turing Tests and its ability to prove whether or not a machine can 'think'.  :roll:

Hit me up to chat and let me know if you know of any!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 02:41:21 PM
It would help to know what class this is for.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: undercovernerd on March 20, 2007, 02:52:27 PM
It's for my comm, tech, and culture class. I did, however, get to choose my own topic and this is the thesis I would like to argue:

Although the Turing Test has been used to assess a machine’s capability to perform human-like conversation, it is not a relevant method for proving artificial intelligence.

I wanted to show both sides of the argument so my paper isn't too biased, but I can't find anyone who supports Turing's ideas.  :|
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 02:55:47 PM
This is generally an anti-Turing site, but I am a lone holdout. I am very much in favour of Turing. My argument is, how the hell else are you supposed to suport an album? Word-of-frikken-mouth? Those bastard majors won't lift a pinky to help. Hell -- even the Stones believe in Turing, and they're FAMOUS.

FAMOUS!!!
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 02:56:13 PM
Besides, machines don't "think".
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: undercovernerd on March 20, 2007, 02:58:02 PM
So I'm assuming you don't know of any professionals.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 02:59:53 PM
Welcome n00b.  This site should help you clacky clacky (http://www.twinkiesproject.com/turing.html)
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: undercovernerd on March 20, 2007, 03:01:49 PM
cute. :|
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 03:02:59 PM
The twinkie or the undergrad?
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 03:05:51 PM
So I'm assuming you don't know of any professionals.

In what field?
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 03:06:25 PM
I could really use a professional.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 03:07:30 PM
Quote
A profession is an occupation that requires extensive training and the study and mastery of specialized knowledge, and usually has a professional association, ethical code and process of certification or licensing. Examples are: librarianship, diplomacy, accounting, engineering, law, teaching, architecture, medicine, social work, pharmacy, finance, the military, the clergy, nursing, and those who work or perform research in the various sciences.


Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 03:08:42 PM
What about Kaopectate?
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 03:08:53 PM
Being a computer guy is not a profession.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 03:10:38 PM
You're assuming that that quotation represents the entire domain of Professions.  Perhaps it's only a subset.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 03:12:58 PM
Computer guys don't have a guild or a licenceing system or a code of ethics or anything like that.

Unless... Unless all you other bastards are holding out on me!!!

Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 03:14:39 PM
Computer guys like Demo have procedural language.  Which is kinda like a code of ethics.  Well it's code at least.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: undercovernerd on March 20, 2007, 03:16:26 PM
By professional I mean someone that is worth mentioning - unlike you.

Someone who has extensive knowledge in mathematic, linguistics, computer science, etc.
Someone who is widely known and highly respected.

I don't think you guys can help me out here.

Thanks anyways.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 03:18:35 PM
By professional I mean someone that is worth mentioning - unlike you.

Someone who has extensive knowledge in mathematic, linguistics, computer science, etc.
Someone who is widely known and highly respected.

I don't think you guys can help me out here.

Thanks anyways.

Don't use words like "professional" unless you know what they mean.

Don't crash into forums looking for free advice from strangers.

Bye-bye!
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 03:22:01 PM
Oh and a little tip for you.  Google John Searle and his Chinese Room.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: beard man on March 20, 2007, 03:24:27 PM
By professional I mean someone that is worth mentioning - unlike you.

Someone who has extensive knowledge in mathematic, linguistics, computer science, etc.
Someone who is widely known and highly respected.

I don't think you guys can help me out here.

Thanks anyways.


Yeah, you sound like a little TWIRP!!    Don't let the door hit you on the way out!!! GOOD RIDDANCE!!!
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: undercovernerd on March 20, 2007, 03:25:43 PM
Thanks for the Searle comment, at least someone shows courtesy.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 03:28:56 PM
You're welcome.  By the way this is an online community.  We are here for the social aspects.  If you have time to kill and want to goof around, feel free to come back and hang out.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 03:38:21 PM
Thanks for the Searle comment, at least someone shows courtesy.

Pb is a nice guy. He would be courteous to the most heinous boor.

Do you realize that posting a request for help without first getting to know a few of us here is very much not courteous?
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 20, 2007, 03:39:48 PM
I'm just trying to get the agency off my back.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 03:42:00 PM
Well, I think it worked.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Rico on March 20, 2007, 03:47:39 PM
Crap, some one got to it before me.  I wanted to quote Searle's Chinese Room example.

Actually, several folks in this forum are highly respected members of their profession and I'm certain more than a couple have been published in professional literature.  Miss, you made three major mistakes in your post:

First, you assumed that extensive knowledge in any area ensures that you are respected and concidered an important person in your field, or that said knowledge would absolutely make them a viable source of information.  (don't worry, reporters invented this idiotic idea)

Second, you assumed that if a person were located who WAS an expert in your specifically requested fields that he would have the time and the desire to talk to you about something you are hardly qualified to discourse on.  To which you add the insult to a valued member of the community, which would further lessen the chance that anyone would have a serrious discussion with you.

Thirdly,  the fact that you didn't know who John Searle is proves that you did no research on the subject at all.  Concidering that the two main arguements against the ridiculous Turing Test are attributed to John Searle and Ned Block, not knowing that is a critical gap in your knowledge.  What's more and refering to number two, why would anyone of your desired status want to say anything to some one too lazy to prepare for the discussion.

Don't take the above as an insult, because it's not entirely intended that way.  A good number of the folks replying and reading these forums are extremely intelligent and highly respected individuals.  To discuss anything with people who spend their days in idle conversation with your intellectual superiors, you need to make sure you "bring it," as they say.  Don't show up with a half-assed thesis and expect a community of sharp-witted and industrious individuals to make time for you.  You know, "birds of a feather, flock together?"  You might concider a little pruning.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: dcrog on March 20, 2007, 04:10:09 PM
A good number of the folks replying and reading these forums are extremely intelligent and highly respected individuals.

I was going to say something in here until Rico excluded me.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 20, 2007, 04:15:52 PM
I was going to say something in here until Rico excluded me.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Agent_Tachyon on March 20, 2007, 04:34:36 PM
Damn sorry I missed this one (Maxwell's demon locked me inside the Chinese Room with Schrodinger's cat).
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Chris on March 20, 2007, 09:08:07 PM
It's for my comm, tech, and culture class. I did, however, get to choose my own topic and this is the thesis I would like to argue:

Although the Turing Test has been used to assess a machine’s capability to perform human-like conversation, it is not a relevant method for proving artificial intelligence.

I wanted to show both sides of the argument so my paper isn't too biased, but I can't find anyone who supports Turing's ideas.  :|

Just a quick tip:

You may want to add to your thesis. For example, something like, "Although the Turing Test has been used to assess a machine’s capability to perform human-like conversation, it is not a relevant method for proving artificial intelligence because of this, because of that, and because of the other thing."

Doing so lets your readers know what to expect from your paper. A solid thesis leads the way to a solid paper.

By the way, I don't think we're even close to having computers that act as though they are humans. Computers need input (coding, as well as end user input values) to operate, and the fact that they lack the true ability to make a decision on their free will separate us from them for a very, very long time. Computers work on antecedent causes, and we can accurately predict what they will do next once we discover the algorithm they are using to operate. We cannot say the same for humans. Well, at least most of us say that we can't. (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-159526/determinism) Determinists like to say that everything we do in life is caused by something that happened previously.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Agent_Tachyon on March 20, 2007, 09:16:44 PM
I've always been critical of the 'computers require input and only know what we tell them' argument. I could convince a two year old that the sky is green and the grass is blue, they require input just as much as your standard Johnny-Five computer does.

Though for the record I predict that the only machine that could potentially (let's say one or so hundred years minimum ETA) become human-like in most respects is the neural net, and that's not really a computer at all, more of an electronic (or simulated) brain. Hans Moravec has written some interesting stuff about that, also Rodney Brooks as I recall.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Anyanka_was_framed on March 20, 2007, 09:20:34 PM
Cylons anyone?  :-D
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: 12AX7 on March 20, 2007, 10:00:19 PM
Cylons anyone?  :-D
By your Command...
:-)
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 21, 2007, 11:52:18 AM
Current neuroscience is showing some evidence for determinism; The Economist from about a month or two ago had a special report on it.  Free Will could just be an illusion.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Chris on March 21, 2007, 12:04:31 PM
If we find that to be the case, then we'll have to re-think the way our legislative system is set up. You know, since "The dog made me do it" might actually be a viable defense for killing your son or daughter.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 21, 2007, 12:24:42 PM
This one time I reasoned myself into a deterministic corner, because of course it makes sense, mechanically, that at any given point the state of every bit of matter and energy, including the subatomic workings within our very neurons, determines their state in the following moment. And since humans tend to recoil at the notion of a deterministic universe, I feverishly clawed my way out again by extending causality into the fourth dimension.

Maybe I'll talk about it again some time, but right now I have to do some computer programming.

Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Demosthenes on March 21, 2007, 05:09:42 PM
Current neuroscience is showing some evidence for determinism; The Economist from about a month or two ago had a special report on it.  Free Will could just be an illusion.

That's just what you want us to think.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 21, 2007, 05:14:27 PM
Exactly...um I mean The Economist is a most reputable source
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 21, 2007, 05:37:20 PM
You were bound to say that.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 21, 2007, 05:38:54 PM
I don't know where I'm bound
I don't know where I'm bound
Whistles calling me away
leaving at the break of day and
I don't know where I'm bound

Can't stand locks, bars or doors
mean cops insanity and wars
Gotta find a place of peace
Till then much travellin' on seas
but I don't know where I'm bound

There's gotta be a place for me
under some green growing tree
clear cool water running by
an unfettered view of the sky
but I don't know where I'm bound

When I die don't bury me
cause then I must be free
cremate my body with a grin
throw my ashes to the wind
cause I don't know where I'm bound

I don't know where I'm bound
I don't know where I'm bound
Whistles calling me away
leaving at the break of day and
I don't know where I'm bound

Got myself a little gall
she has been a damn right pall
that ol' highway's calling me
and free I gotta be but
I don't know where I'm bound
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 21, 2007, 05:50:30 PM
You know, Pb, I can sort of see a beauty in determinism. I mean, just think: Every single solitary event in the entire universe had to happen exactly the way it did just so you and I could post stuff in this thread. That's frikken heavy. I can just imagine the combined matter of the Universe from the Big Bang on gawking at us, yelling "we did all that so you would do THIS?!?"

Dude.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 21, 2007, 05:52:17 PM
Somehow, I felt you'd post something like that.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Demosthenes on March 21, 2007, 05:54:37 PM
It's aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllll going according to plan.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: ivan on March 21, 2007, 05:57:00 PM
Including the fact that it's all going according to plan.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 21, 2007, 05:58:35 PM
(http://i10.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/d0/66/11_1_b.JPG)

I love it when a plan comes together.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Demosthenes on March 21, 2007, 07:16:11 PM
Including the fact that it's all going according to plan.

In accordance with the prophesy.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 21, 2007, 07:31:51 PM
Which prophesy?  The one from the book of SpurtReynolds or the one from the book of Detrimus?
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Demosthenes on March 21, 2007, 07:35:23 PM
Which prophesy?  The one from the book of SpurtReynolds or the one from the book of Detrimus?

The one from the book of Demosthenes.

That's right.

That prophesy.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: pbsaurus on March 21, 2007, 07:38:21 PM
Ooooohhhhhh
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Agent_Tachyon on March 21, 2007, 09:41:12 PM
I can't wait for Skoll to show up and REALLY get this party started personally.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: hackess on March 22, 2007, 12:26:00 AM
The one from the book of Demosthenes.

That's right.

That prophesy.

When was that scheduled again? I want to make sure I have the...things...back from the...place. You know.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: 12AX7 on March 22, 2007, 08:20:12 AM
I want to make sure I have the...things...back from the...place. You know.
They're finished with yours. I saw em hanging back in the back this morning. :-)
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: Demosthenes on March 22, 2007, 10:00:31 AM
They're finished with yours. I saw em hanging back in the back this morning. :-)

Bwahahaha.

12, when the Old Ones return, I'll make sure that you're one of the chosen people spared from the carnage.
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: 12AX7 on March 22, 2007, 02:26:53 PM
Thank you, Sir.  :-D
Title: Re: Turing Test
Post by: hackess on March 22, 2007, 08:20:03 PM
They're finished with yours. I saw em hanging back in the back this morning. :-)

Ooh, speedy. I'll tip well.